Faith without works........is Faith.

[Jethro Bodine]

Where does this fit into the discussion?

"26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth" (Hebrews 10:26 NASB)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

There are four things to notice here:

1) There seems to be degrees of righteousness, either of a qualitative or quantitative nature. This is obvious by the word "surpasses". The scribes and Pharisees had some amount of righteousness. Note Jesus doesn't say "your righteousness must be of a different kind..." He says there has to be either more or a higher quality of the same kind.

2) Righteousness is salvific, so therefore justifies. Jesus says entry into the "kingdom of Heaven" is dependent upon this righteousness, which the scribes and Pharisees have some measure of.

3) Righteousness has to do with obediently keeping and teaching "the commandments". He ties the two verses together with "For..."

4) Righteousness has nothing to do with faith, as the scribes and Pharisees had none. Strange, huh?

The first three dovetail with my view of Grace, faith and justification above. The last one, not so much. What do you think?

Point 1: There are only degrees of righteousness in regard to how righteous one's actions are compared to another's.

Point 2: The only righteousness that is salvific is Christ's righteousness, given to us as a free gift. Nobody can save themselves by their righteous actions because no one can be perfectly righteous.

Point 3: But the righteousness that has to do with keeping the commandments is not the righteousness that justifies, as in makes us righteous. The righteousness of our ways can only show us to have the righteousness of Christ that one gets by having their sins forgiven by faith in Christ's sacrifice (not earned through righteous work). James 2:18 NASB

Point 4: This is where differentiating between the righteousness of Christ and our righteous behavior is important. Our righteousness simply can't justify us, no matter how prevalent it may be in our life. We don't have enough of it. Only Christ's perfect righteousness given to us as a free gift can justify us.

 

[dadof10]

There is no good answer as to how someone can claim they do not volunteer to hurt others while they simultaneously claim they volunteer to hurt others. That is how I know freewill is a lie in the moral purview. You're either ruled by Truth, or lies. Therefore, one must be deceived into wanting to hurt someone else, and also deceived into rejecting God.

Freewill is a masterful lie that, when believed, removes a person from considering where their thoughts are coming from, and who is controlling their emotions, all for the noble cause of taking responsibility for our actions. For example, you say you're a sinner because you choose self over God. But this is a false dichotomy. The Truth is, we can never choose self over God, since to choose God is to choose the self. Next thing you know, the devil has us convinced that all the good things are forfeited when we serve God. This is the thinking that Satan manages to place in our minds, and it all shows up in our words and actions.


Empathy is not subjective by definition. When we experience empathy, we feel others as if we were them. Satan perverts empathy by finding reasons not to have to care. He makes Empathy a burden so that we don't want to feel it. Again, Satan is deceiving you into thinking these people are arrogant with a sense of entitlement. Satan probably is telling them that this is what you think of them at the same time, hence it is self-fulfilling. They probably go talk about you, saying you're there not because you care about them, but to score points with God. Misery upon misery, and sin upon sin.
But this is righteousness by works. That's what freewill actually is. It's works based, not faith based. You can't choose self over God without first blindly accepting the false premise, that serving God is not serving your best interests. You need to see through Satan's lies. How can we claim we have a freewill when Satan plays us like a concert violinist? He orchestrates all sin.

The choice is only present because Satan puts it there. It has nothing to do with your will. Satan has you conflating choice/option with choice/decision. That's why freewill in the moral purview is an equivocation.

First off, this fictitious woman is being moved by Satan. She doesn't see it, for she thinks this is love, and you're hot. Once your marriage is wrecked, her desire for you will suddenly vanish, and so will she. However, if we see this for what it is, the devil playing us, there can be no temptation. You're so worried about YOUR SIN, as if that's what matters. This is why I detest freewill theology. Freewill is a foundational lie that exists for the purpose of blame and subterfuge, when in fact all sin happens because people are deceived into doing it. But Noooo.... we can't blame the devil, and forgive others and ourselves with a pure heart. We need to beat ourselves for being stupid, so that the smartness will come.


This just means we admit we have sin, not that we volunteer for it. We're born into sin through the first Adam. And we're born into righteousness through the second Adam. Romans 5:19.

Well said. Indeed there are two spiritual powers above us. One rules through deception and one rules through Truth.

Actually, I do respect you, even as I am candid with you. Sure, I sometimes say "respectfully", so as to pre-empt any thoughts that I'm speaking out of arrogance. If by chance I come across as arrogant, then my credibility with you will be compromised.
If there is no freewill decision for spiritual things how is the sin mine? Sin is a direction away and in separation from God. It is therefore both a spiritual condition of corruption, and also an action that proceeds out of that spiritual condition. One need not have freewill to have sin, they just need a will born in corruption. But there is no blame for sin that happens because of blindness. John 9:41. Matthew 7:1-2. Romans 2:1.

Do you think that Satan is so powerful that he can't be denied? To me, you're asking me if Satan is more cunning than we are. Yes, at first he is, particularly if we believe we have freewill. We don't see him working in us, even as we blame others for the same sin we all have. But the renewing of the mind through the Holy Spirit that testifies to Christ, gives us power over him. We need the Truth to set us free from the lies that hold us captive. John 8:32.

How does Satan "deceiving us" translate into us having no choice in the matter? First off, we didn't choose to be deceived. We don't invite the devil into our minds to deceive us, as if that's plausible. Secondly, we are using terms here that are subjective. The term 'will' means the ability to reason, to choose and to desire. The term free will means we do these things free from the constraint of fate or divines force. So in the moral purview we do choose, but not freely. Our choices are driven by either Truth we see, or lies we don't see, or lies we see as true. Matthew 6:22-24.

Wow. I can not possibly respond to all the points above. It would take an entire day, which I don't have. The heart of the matter seems to be this: If we are deceived into sinning by the devil, are we responsible for that sin? You have said that "Freewill means voluntary. There are voluntary actions. I don't see them happening in the moral purview. These decisions are either spiritually or carnally motivated." And: "Yes, I sin also, but not willingly." When you are duped (I guess?) into sinning by the devil, are you responsible for that sin or is it really the devil "sinning through you", as it were?

*EDIT* Oops, forgot this one. You said above: "But there is no blame for sin that happens because of blindness. John 9:41. Matthew 7:1-2. Romans 2:1." This seems to remove any responsibility for sin from the believer. If a person is not responsible for the sin itself, how can it be his sin? The sin would have to "belong to" someone else, or no one.

 

[childeye]

Where does this fit into the discussion?

"26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth" (Hebrews 10:26 NASB)

A most appropriate scripture and also a thoughtful way to present it. Are you familiar with Machiavellion semantics? This scripture is suggesting that the Truth of God doesn't always set someone free from the lies that beget sin. Ironically, since freewill is a term that implies freedom from God, this is the absolute proof that it exists. It reveals a rebellious spirit that would rather die than accept that God is not a tyrant. There is no greater Love that can be shown than for one to lay down their life through great suffering for his friends. Hence there remains no sacrifice that can cleanse the conscience, if the cross of the Christ can't do it. Hebrews 10:18. 18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

 

[childeye]

Wow. I can not possibly respond to all the points above. It would take an entire day, which I don't have. The heart of the matter seems to be this: If we are deceived into sinning by the devil, are we responsible for that sin? You have said that "Freewill means voluntary. There are voluntary actions. I don't see them happening in the moral purview. These decisions are either spiritually or carnally motivated." And: "Yes, I sin also, but not willingly." When you are duped (I guess?) into sinning by the devil, are you responsible for that sin or is it really the devil "sinning through you", as it were?

Yeah, after I finished my post, I looked at it and thought, there's no way he's going to respond to all this. That's a good thing. I hate to see how massive these responses get. Still, I got some things off my chest, and I appreciate that. So thanks for the re-focus.

If we are deceived into sinning by the devil, are we responsible for that sin?
When you are duped (I guess?) into sinning by the devil, are you responsible for that sin or is it really the devil "sinning through you", as it were?

I believe we are held responsible according to how we hold others responsible as per Matthew 7:1-2. Satan is both tempter and accuser. As such, he can only be defeated by exposing the hypocrisy of two contrary positions. Notice that the blood of Jesus is shed so that sins may be forgiven, not so that they can be condemned. Why is that?

 

[childeye]

Sometimes, I don't see sin coming.

I have a tendency to be impatient. For example, I'm driving on the highway and someone cuts me off. My first reaction is to get angry with that person. But then the holy Spirit reminds me that I have done the same thing when I have had to get over. Moreover, the person may be elderly and not as skilled at driving as I am. My anger then becomes dissuaded and instead I start to see what a hypocritical jerk I am without the holy Spirit.

Then there are times that I have tested God by doing things I knew I was not supposed to do.

Afterwards however, I found out how my actions had hurt others, and I regretted the decision with much sorrow. Now had I known beforehand how much pain I would cause for others, I don't think I would have done those things in the first place. Moreover, without the Love that is God, I would not even care whether I had hurt anyone or not. Consequently, belief in freewill does not make a person act responsibly, Love does. Hence I worship God as that power of goodness that without, I would become an abomination. Mark 10:18.

 

[WIP]

Moreover, the person may be elderly and not as skilled at driving as I am.

Now hold on!!! What are you trying to imply, that I'm a bad driver because I'm getting older?

 

[childeye]

Now hold on!!! What are you trying to imply, that I'm a bad driver because I'm getting older?

Was that you on the highway? Actually it was a pretty good maneuver.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Was that you on the highway? Actually it was a pretty good maneuver.

It's amazing what you can see out the top half of your steering wheel, right WIP?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Bring me up to speed...

Which one of you believes in freewill, and which one of you doesn't?

 

[childeye]

Bring me up to speed...

Which one of you believes in freewill, and which one of you doesn't?

I'm arguing that freewill is an equivocation in the moral purview. I therefore believe freewill exists as that, and not as any substantive reality. To me, the term free has to be relative to something so as to be intelligible. But freewill in the moral purview identifies it's self as free from two contrary powers of Light and Dark ,Truth and ignorance about God, which makes it an equivocation.

I believe freewill hides a spirit of rebellion under the guise of freedom of will. It is revealed in the changing of connotations of words such as counting sin as an ability rather than a disability.

 

[childeye]

*EDIT* Oops, forgot this one. You said above: "But there is no blame for sin that happens because of blindness. John 9:41. Matthew 7:1-2. Romans 2:1." This seems to remove any responsibility for sin from the believer. If a person is not responsible for the sin itself, how can it be his sin? The sin would have to "belong to" someone else, or no one.

Yes exactly, which is how I believe the blood of the Lamb is able to cleanse the conscience.

That doesn't mean we get to go sin. It means that we must learn why we're even thinking that sin is something that we get to go do.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I'm arguing that freewill is an equivocation in the moral purview. I therefore believe freewill exists as that, and not as any substantive reality. To me, the term free has to be relative to something so as to be intelligible. But freewill in the moral purview identifies it's self as free from two contrary powers of Light and Dark ,Truth and ignorance about God, which makes it an equivocation.

I believe freewill hides a spirit of rebellion under the guise of freedom of will. It is revealed in the changing of connotations of words such as counting sin as an ability rather than a disability.

As Christians I believe that we decide who we will be in slavery to:

"Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness." (Romans 7:16-18 NASB)

 

[childeye]

As Christians I believe that we decide who we will be in slavery to:

"Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness." (Romans 7:16-18 NASB)

Yeah, but somewhere we become persuaded as to whom we want to serve and therefore why we want to. Lies are a false truth, a false image of god. The Christ is the greatest show of divine Love. That is the power of the cross being recognized by those made able to know God when they see Him. From faith to faith. Romans 1:17.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

made able to know God when they see Him

Being made able to see and know God does not rob you of your free will to decide either way for or against him. In fact, it gives the choice back to you. That is why God is just in condemning those who do not receive him. He cleared the path to him and they did not take it.

" in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance" (Hebrews 6:4-6 NASB)

"...those who perish, because * they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. 11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, 12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness." (2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 NASB)

 

[childeye]

Being made able to see and know God does not rob you of your free will to decide either way for or against him. In fact, it gives the choice back to you.

Sorry Jethro, but to me that's an equivocation. First off, keep in mind, if we're going to discuss this, I'm arguing that there is a spirit of rebellion hiding in the concept of freewill with both the power to tempt and accuse, a mindset that ends in hypocrisy and is Satanic. When you say God does not rob us of our free will to decide both for and against Him, that's an equivocation. This statement has nothing to do with the 'will', which obviously can't be both for and against Him at once.. Notice that this only appears plausible in the mind by conflating choice/option with choice/decision.

It's still all about knowledge and ignorance of God, (knowing God), and not freewill (voluntary choice). It doesn't even matter that we're so blind as to think that there even is a choice, since in reality there is only One True God and He is Holy. To choose in favor of Him as the Eternal Love, Who is our Maker, is to choose in favor of ourselves as those He made. To choose against Him is to choose against ourselves.

That is why God is just in condemning those who do not receive him. He cleared the path to him and they did not take it.

They condemn themselves while condemning others. It's just the exposing of Satan's children.

" in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance" (Hebrews 6:4-6 NASB)

Hebrews 6:3. 3 And this will we do, if God permit.

"...those who perish, because * they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. 11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, 12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness." (2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 NASB)

This is actually a powerful antithesis to free will. First off this scripture in context, is about he who exalts himself above all that is God and how he will be revealed. That means there exists a set predisposition that produces iniquity that God allows for His own ends. Those who perish are Satanic minions not free wills. Notice also that God will give them strong delusion so as to cause them to believe what is false. If we have free wills, none of this could happen. 2 Thessalonians 2:8-9.

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders

 

[dadof10]

A most appropriate scripture and also a thoughtful way to present it. Are you familiar with Machiavellion semantics? This scripture is suggesting that the Truth of God doesn't always set someone free from the lies that beget sin.

No it isn't. It is suggesting that believers ("...if WE go on sinning...") commit actual sin and it is a "willful" choice that we have the power to stop doing, otherwise, why the warning? Remember these are believers, like the author of Hebrews.

Ironically, since freewill is a term that implies freedom from God, this is the absolute proof that it exists.

It implies freedom to truly love. If God simply creates puppets that He forces to love Him, is that true love? That doesn't sound like the loving Father revealed by Jesus.

It reveals a rebellious spirit that would rather die than accept that God is not a tyrant.

I would rather die that accept a lie. God is not a tyrant and because I believe He isn't doesn't mean I have a "rebellious spirit".

There is no greater Love that can be shown than for one to lay down their life through great suffering for his friends. Hence there remains no sacrifice that can cleanse the conscience, if the cross of the Christ can't do it. Hebrews 10:18. 18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

Agreed.

 

[dadof10]

I believe we are held responsible according to how we hold others responsible as per Matthew 7:1-2.

Please. This is not an answer. I thought we were being "forthright with one another". It's a yes or no question. "If we are deceived into sinning by the devil, are we responsible for that sin?" and "When you are duped (I guess?) into sinning by the devil, are you responsible for that sin or is it really the devil "sinning through you", as it were?" So, is it your sin or Satan's?

Satan is both tempter and accuser. As such, he can only be defeated by exposing the hypocrisy of two contrary positions. Notice that the blood of Jesus is shed so that sins may be forgiven, not so that they can be condemned. Why is that?

What kind of question is this? Who ever said Jesus' blood was shed for the condemnation of sin? I don't even know what you are getting at here.

 

[dadof10]

Sometimes, I don't see sin coming.

I have a tendency to be impatient. For example, I'm driving on the highway and someone cuts me off. My first reaction is to get angry with that person. But then the holy Spirit reminds me that I have done the same thing when I have had to get over. Moreover, the person may be elderly and not as skilled at driving as I am. My anger then becomes dissuaded and instead I start to see what a hypocritical jerk I am without the holy Spirit.

Then there are times that I have tested God by doing things I knew I was not supposed to do.

The same thing happens to me on a regular basis. I sin, God (the Holy Spirit) shows me my sin, and repent.

Afterwards however, I found out how my actions had hurt others, and I regretted the decision with much sorrow. Now had I known beforehand how much pain I would cause for others, I don't think I would have done those things in the first place.

Huh? You mean you had a choice and have a choice in the future? If the same situation repeats in the future, will you act in the same way? How is this not a free will choice?

Moreover, without the Love that is God, I would not even care whether I had hurt anyone or not. Consequently, belief in freewill does not make a person act responsibly,

It absolutely does. If I'm responsible for my own actions, how does this knowledge keep me from being a more moral, responsible person? If I'm convinced that my actions are being forced by either God or Satan, this knowledge would make me act LESS responsible because I would always have an "out". Hey, it's not me hitting this crack pipe, it's the devil who I just can't resist.

Love does

Love and freewill are not at odds with each other, this is a straw-man. Freewill love is the only kind of love worth having. Forced love is not love at all.

 

[dadof10]

Was that you on the highway? Actually it was a pretty good maneuver.

For an old man...