Faith without works........is Faith.

[dadof10]

Yes exactly, which is how I believe the blood of the Lamb is able to cleanse the conscience.

"Yes, exactly" what? Your sin belongs to Satan? And because it is not the believers sin, Christ's blood is able to "cleanse the conscience"? Christ's blood can cleanse the conscience of a free will decision, too.

That doesn't mean we get to go sin. It means that we must learn why we're even thinking that sin is something that we get to go do.

"Get to go do"? This says a lot. I try to refrain from sin because if I fail, it is MY SIN, I can't pawn the responsibility off on Satan. Do you really look at sinning as something to "get to do"? A person who views sin as an abomination would never say they "get to do" it.

 

[childeye]

No it isn't. It is suggesting that believers ("...if WE go on sinning...") commit actual sin and it is a "willful" choice that we have the power to stop doing, otherwise, why the warning? Remember these are believers, like the author of Hebrews.

Yes, if we sin willfiully, as in go on sinning after hearing the Truth. You have already said you don't want to sin, but now you seem to want to say that you can want to sin if you so choose, which is a contradiction I have already pointed out.

This scripture is not saying that we never sin unwillingly just because it says if we sin willfully. Why would Paul say if we sin willingly, unless he is making a distinction between willingly and unwillingly? If all sin is done willingly, then he would not say if.

And no, I don't think anyone is actually believing in Christ, if they are sinning willfully. They would have to want to hurt others which is inconsistent with the Spirit of Christ. Look at this scripture which says why people go on sinning. It's Satan's children that go on sinning, God's children don't. Why is that? This has to do with what Spirit Fathers the person, that's why it says children of. 1 John 3:8-9.

It implies freedom to truly love. If God simply creates puppets that He forces to love Him, is that true love? That doesn't sound like the loving Father revealed by Jesus.

To know Him is to Love Him, for He is Love. Of course He programs us to love, even as He Fathers us through the Holy Spirit, that's what knowing His Spirit is all about. I love God, Christ, my Father and Mother, brothers, my and wife and children. I always have and could not choose to not Love them. I don't stop to decide if I should love them or not, just because otherwise it's not True Love. I don't believe you can choose to not Love God either.

I would rather die that accept a lie. God is not a tyrant and because I believe He isn't doesn't mean I have a "rebellious spirit".

This was about those who perish after hearing the Truth, not you.

Agreed.

But all of my reasoning is based upon what you just agreed to.[/QUOTE]

 

[childeye]

Please. This is not an answer. I thought we were being "forthright with one another". It's a yes or no question. "If we are deceived into sinning by the devil, are we responsible for that sin?" and "When you are duped (I guess?) into sinning by the devil, are you responsible for that sin or is it really the devil "sinning through you", as it were?" So, is it your sin or Satan's?

It's not a simple yes or no question. This is a semantic issue. It's sin in my flesh not in me. In my view, since sin is in the flesh, we all have sin, both Satan and mankind. I've already said this. I've also said that sin is a state of corruption, not a choice. It's sin in my flesh not in me. Romans 7:20.

What kind of question is this? Who ever said Jesus' blood was shed for the condemnation of sin? I don't even know what you are getting at here.

I'm saying that Christ died so that sins can be forgiven, to take from Satan the power of death. Hebrews 2:14. Satan is not for forgiving sin. Revelation 12:10. Therefore we are judged according to what measure we judge others by even because Satan's spirit is hypocritical. That's why we are condemned as we condemn others. Romans 2:1.

 

[childeye]

The same thing happens to me on a regular basis. I sin, God (the Holy Spirit) shows me my sin, and repent.

Then you don't volunteer to repent, just like me. The Holy Spirit shows me my hypocrisy and I am forced to be humbled by it. Moreover, my sin is present in my flesh, but God's Spirit of Truth is greater.

Huh? You mean you had a choice and have a choice in the future?

Sure, when I was testing God, I thought I had a choice and believed in freewill too.

If the same situation repeats in the future, will you act in the same way?

Of course not, I've learned since then.

How is this not a free will choice?

Because I have sin in my flesh.

It absolutely does. If I'm responsible for my own actions, how does this knowledge keep me from being a more moral, responsible person?

This is too simple. You yourself said that the Holy Spirit corrects you and then you repent. Shouldn't God be thanked for your correction rather than saying you did it freely?

If I'm convinced that my actions are being forced by either God or Satan, this knowledge would make me act LESS responsible because I would always have an "out". Hey, it's not me hitting this crack pipe, it's the devil who I just can't resist.

I think the Spirit is always resisting, but the flesh is weak. It's not looking for an out to confess being a helpless sinner and hoping in God's mercy.

Love and freewill are not at odds with each other, this is a straw-man.

Either the Eternal Spirit of Love makes a person moral, or you simply choose to be moral. It's righteousness by works verses righteousness by faith.

Freewill love is the only kind of love worth having. Forced love is not love at all.

God is Love. To know Him is to Love Him. We don't decide to worship Him or not. True worship is drawn out by the object of worship. Matthew 21:16.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Sorry Jethro, but to me that's an equivocation. First off, keep in mind, if we're going to discuss this, I'm arguing that there is a spirit of rebellion hiding in the concept of freewill with both the power to tempt and accuse, a mindset that ends in hypocrisy and is Satanic. When you say God does not rob us of our free will to decide both for and against Him, that's an equivocation. This statement has nothing to do with the 'will', which obviously can't be both for and against Him at once.. Notice that this only appears plausible in the mind by conflating choice/option with choice/decision.

It's still all about knowledge and ignorance of God, (knowing God), and not freewill (voluntary choice). It doesn't even matter that we're so blind as to think that there even is a choice, since in reality there is only One True God and He is Holy. To choose in favor of Him as the Eternal Love, Who is our Maker, is to choose in favor of ourselves as those He made. To choose against Him is to choose against ourselves.


They condemn themselves while condemning others. It's just the exposing of Satan's children.


Hebrews 6:3. 3 And this will we do, if God permit.

This is actually a powerful antithesis to free will. First off this scripture in context, is about he who exalts himself above all that is God and how he will be revealed. That means there exists a set predisposition that produces iniquity that God allows for His own ends. Those who perish are Satanic minions not free wills. Notice also that God will give them strong delusion so as to cause them to believe what is false. If we have free wills, none of this could happen. 2 Thessalonians 2:8-9.

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders

I think the argument boils down to 'does the rat in the maze have free will?'. Yes, in that he can move any where he wants within the maze. No, because the walls of the maze define the limits of where he can freely go. And I think that is exactly the free will that man has. But even free will confined is still free will. We see this demonstrated in the passage I shared earlier:

"the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because * they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. 11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, 12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness. " (2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 NASB)

These people chose to ultimately be confined to the rat maze of the old nature and it's deceits outside of the will of God where they will perish. Just as we believers chose the maze of the new nature and it's truths that confines us within the will of God where we will live.

 

[smaller]

The evil conscience within no person can be anything but EVIL. We are not "free" of that working, presently. I'd consider it disingenuous to present the evil conscience as any form of "free" anything. (Hebrews 10:22, Hebrews 5:12)

When God set both good and evil before us, there was no "choice" given to eliminate evil. We are never "free" of that wrestling match while here on earth.

It always amazes me, the obscure places where the Gospel is inserted in the Old Testament.

In 2 Sam. 19:31-39 we see such beautiful picture of the Gospel.

Barzillai = Iron
Gilead = Rocky region
Rogelim = Place of fullers
Chimham = My longing

The King, The Jordan, Jerusalem, all there for viewing.

 

[childeye]

"Yes, exactly" what? Your sin belongs to Satan?

Yes exactly, the sin belongs to no one, so long as we condemn sin in the flesh. Romans 8:1

And because it is not the believers sin, Christ's blood is able to "cleanse the conscience"?

Because it's believed that it's no one's personal fault that they have sin in their flesh, the conscience is cleansed. The implications of believing this means we must return good for evil, pray for those who spite us, carry a cross sharing the burdens of the sins of others.

Christ's blood can cleanse the conscience of a free will decision, too.

Your turn, How?

"Get to go do"? This says a lot. I try to refrain from sin because if I fail, it is MY SIN, I can't pawn the responsibility off on Satan.

Yes, I know you try to refrain from sin because you take it personally as your sin. I was the same way when I believed in freewill. I believe that's why I always had a guilty conscience. One day, during the most sinful time in my life, I just gave up trying to be righteous and admitted to God and to myself, that I was not righteous and was never going to be. That was the day I stopped trying to refrain from sin and became completely dependent upon God in His mercy. I now just walk in the Love of others as myself and thank God for the Holy Spirit that makes me able to stand.

Do you really look at sinning as something to "get to do"? A person who views sin as an abomination would never say they "get to do" it.

I think you're misunderstanding me here. I'm saying there is no effective temptation to sin in the flesh, unless we're somehow believing that this sin is somehow something we get to go do. The point being that there is a lie hidden behind every temptation, that when exposed defeats the temptation.

 

[JLB]

We can see from the passage that the only repenting they did was change their mind about the Christ. IOW, the only thing they did to be born again was believe the gospel, and then they were given the spiritual gift of tongues.

Believe and repent... not just believe all by itself.

Repent is turning to God, because you turn away from Satan, and from his kingdom.

This is the way we receive the forgiveness of sin and are born again... not just believe all by itself.

Your doctrine has repent lumped together as meaning the same thing as believe.

Why would the scripture say Repent and believe, two distinctly separate things, which are clearly taught by Paul.

9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

Confessing Jesus as Lord, is how we show that we have turned to Him, and away from Satan as out former lord.

The scriptures teach us that is what the house of Cornelius did and received eternal life as a result.

The plain and clear scriptures teach this as plain as day... if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

...with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Not believing is made unto salvation, but confession is made unto salvation.


44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word.

There is nothing here to suggest that these did not repent, even before Peter arrived, as Cornelius was aware of the Gospel message that was being preached throughout the area... as the scriptures said -

And they said, "Cornelius the centurion, a just man, one who fears God and has a good reputation among all the nation of the Jews, was divinely instructed by a holy angel to summon you to his house, and to hear words from you." Obedience to do what the angel instructed, in order that salvation would come to his household...

But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him. The word which God sent to the children of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ--He is Lord of all-- that word you know, which was proclaimed throughout all Judea, and began from Galilee after the baptism which John preached: Acts 10:35-37

Cornelius just needed the missing ingredient from Paul's Gospel message... And how shall they hear without a preacher?
And how shall they preach unless they are sent? Romans 10:14-15


45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.
46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered,
47 "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"
Acts 10:44-47


Just like the disciples of John that had already repented, but needed to hear about Jesus...

1 And it happened, while Apollos was at Corinth, that Paul, having passed through the upper regions, came to Ephesus. And finding some disciples
2 he said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" So they said to him, "We have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit."
3 And he said to them, "Into what then were you baptized?" So they said, "Into John's baptism."
4 Then Paul said, "John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus."
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied.
Acts 19:1-6


We know that the house of Cornelius did repent and receive life...not just believe all by itself.

18 When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, "Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life."

 

[smaller]

There was no justifications by God, given by or of God to the evil present within Paul. That is an impossible sight to derive. Romans 7:21.

This reality is in fact the "killing ground" that makes us see that we have no justifications by works. Romans 7:13

It is good to be mindful that the same Word that may move us to good, can also cause thorns and briars to spring up in "our" ground. 2 Samuel 23:6, Song of Solomon 2:2, Isaiah 10:17, Ezekiel 2:6, Hosea 9:6, Hebrews 6:8

 

[childeye]

I think the argument boils down to 'does the rat in the maze have free will?'. Yes, in that he can move any where he wants within the maze. No, because the walls of the maze define the limits of where he can freely go. And I think that is exactly the free will that man has.

Still the term freewill remains an equivocation in this concept, a subjective yes and yet no. Moreover, I don't think a rat in a maze fits a moral paradigm for a moral freewill. Why? Because this concept is still conflating choice/option with choice/decision. I notice that the rat has a choice/option to go left or right, and therefore this is described by some, as a free choice/decision. So what? That's not freewill. Is it not predictable that the wicked rat will choose the ungodly path, and the benevolent rat chooses the godly path? Don't they both have to have equal ability to go either way for freewill to be established? Where exactly is the freewill displayed here? To address the issue of freewill, we must ask, does scripture show that God can take the ungodly rat and make him godly and take the godly rat and make him ungodly? Matthew 13:12. John 9:39. 1 Corinthians 1:27. Romans 11:25. Romans 9:25-26.

We see this demonstrated in the passage I shared earlier:

"the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because * they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. 11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, 12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness. " (2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 NASB)

These people chose to ultimately be confined to the rat maze of the old nature and it's deceits outside of the will of God where they will perish. Just as we believers chose the maze of the new nature and it's truths that confines us within the will of God where we will live.

You realize I have already pointed out that this scripture is about the revealing of Satan and his minions? I note that now you're describing two different mazes and two different free-wills. The one that serves Satan is free from God and the one that serves God is free from Satan. Two different free-wills yet both slaves to their respective masters. Still one so called freewill is rebellious against God and is Satanic. We're arguing semantics even because the term freewill is an equivocation.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The evil conscience within no person can be anything but EVIL. We are not "free" of that working, presently. I'd consider it disingenuous to present the evil conscience as any form of "free" anything. (Hebrews 10:22, Hebrews 5:12)

When God set both good and evil before us, there was no "choice" given to eliminate evil. We are never "free" of that wrestling match while here on earth.

You keep telling us to reckon ourselves alive to the sin, completely contrary to what Paul says to do:

"reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. " (Romans 6:11 KJV)

I still to this day see no practical value in what you teach. None.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Still the term freewill remains an equivocation in this concept, a subjective yes and yet no.

Not while we have the choice to decide which maze we are going to exercise our free will in.

 

[smaller]

You keep telling us to reckon ourselves alive to the sin, completely contrary to what Paul says to do:

"reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. " (Romans 6:11 KJV)

I still to this day see no practical value in what you teach. None.

And I see zero value in trying to justify the evil present within anyone. Those are merely religious cloaking devices.

1 John 1:
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

 

[childeye]

Not while we have the choice to decide which maze we are going to exercise our free will in.

Okay, but that's just asserting that the will is free because there exists both good and evil. The will is internal and I believe is either pure or corrupted, according to one's image of God/god. If we have a corrupt image of god, then we are corrupt. If we have a Pure Image of God then we are pure. Titus 1:15. 2 Corinthians 4:4.I don't believe we just decide to be corrupt or pure.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The one that serves Satan is free from God and the one that serves God is free from Satan. Two different free-wills yet both slaves to their respective masters.

Which is exactly what I was pointing out when I quoted this:

"16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?" (Romans 6:16 NASB)

We have the choice about who we will be in slavery to. It's the paradox connected with being human. Ultimately, we decide which maze we are going to be confined to.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

And I see zero value in trying to justify the evil present within anyone. Those are merely religious cloaking devices.

1 John 1:
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

I can count on one hand the number of Christians who think they do not sin. But I can't count the number of Christians who know full well they sin but say it doesn't matter that they do, it's just the way it is, accept it. That is the much more prevalent argument in the Protestant Church and which you seem to be a prophet of. I resist the teaching with every fiber of my being. It goes completely contrary to Paul's teaching to resist the sin nature putting it to death, not surrender to it because it's a lost cause to try to fight it.

"12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, 13 and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not be master over you" (Romans 6:12-15 NASB)

This is a vastly different message than what you constantly teach in these forums.

 

[childeye]

You keep telling us to reckon ourselves alive to the sin, completely contrary to what Paul says to do:

"reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. " (Romans 6:11 KJV)

I still to this day see no practical value in what you teach. None.

When I read what smaller says, I think this: If I think there is no sin in my flesh, then why does the holy Spirit convict me of sin in my flesh?

 

[childeye]

Which is exactly what I was pointing out when I quoted this:

"16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?" (Romans 6:16 NASB)

We have the choice about who we will be in slavery to. It's the paradox connected with being human. Ultimately, we decide which maze we are going to be confined to.

Yes I did receive you. We're only agreeing that we're arguing semantics and this paradox you point to is what you call freewill. I don't call it that. It's not been established that we can choose which master we wish to serve when we are sold under sin. Romans 7:14. Romans 1:24.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The will is internal and I believe is either pure or corrupted, according to one's image of God/god.

That's still a free will. Even if it has to operate within the greater will of God, or the devil.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

It's not been established that we can choose which master we wish to serve when we are sold under sin. Romans 7:14. Romans 1:24.

I pointed out that it is God who brings us to the place of decision where we do indeed have the freedom of choice to choose who we will surrender our will to.

10 The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son." (1 John 5:10 NASB)

I see an abundance of free will choice here. Not a freedom of choice we have by nature, but one that God grants to us when we hear the testimony of the Holy Spirit concerning Jesus Christ. Believing is a freedom of choice that we are given the opportunity to exercise. And depending on how we choose we will then come into the slavery of either God or the prince of the air.