Faith without works........is Faith.

[Jethro Bodine]

I don't see any choices, I see sound counsel.

...yes, counsel as to choices we are to make as Christians seeking the righteousness of God. Loads of choices to be made:

7 Submit therefore to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. 8 Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded. 9 Be miserable and mourn and weep; let your laughter be turned into mourning and your joy to gloom. 10 Humble yourselves in the presence of the Lord, and He will exalt you." (James 4:7-10 NASB)
"(S)eek first His kingdom and His righteousness" (Matthew 6:33 NASB)

I resist this concept of Christianity that says you wait around for righteousness to happen, and in the mean time you do not purposely attempt to be righteous in behavior because that would be works and not faith, and everything is okay between you and God while your sin life flourishes unhindered. That's completely contrary to what the scriptures 'counsel' us to do:

" His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence. 4 For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust. 5 Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence, and in your moral excellence, knowledge, 6 and in your knowledge, self-control, and in your self-control, perseverance, and in your perseverance, godliness, 7 and in your godliness, brotherly kindness, and in your brotherly kindness, love. 8 For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten * his purification from his former sins. 10 Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never * * stumble" (2 Peter 1:3-10 NASB emphasis mine)

"10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up. 11 Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat! 13 But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells. 14 Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless, 15 and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, 16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so * that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness, 18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen." (2 Peter 3: NASB emphasis mine)

"the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot * please God. 9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. 10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies (note 'mortal', smaller) through His Spirit who dwells in you. 12 So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh" (Romans 8:7-12 NASB parenthesis and emphasis mine)

As Christians, we are responsible to make choices. Important and necessary choices. We are not counseled to just sit around because everything is 'ok' whether we do anything righteous or not because, supposedly, 'salvation is so utterly not of what we do'. God counsels us to 'wake up!' so that his coming will not result in an unpleasant surprise of us being assigned a place with the unbelievers and hypocrites "where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth':

"'My master is not coming for a long time,' 49 and begins to beat his fellow slaves and eat and drink with drunkards; 50 the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour which he does not know, 51 and will cut him in pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 24:49-51 NASB)

I can hear so many right now saying, "Impossible! I'm saved! That can't happen to me." Read your Bible folks.
The absence of works signifies a lack of faith. The faith one needs to be saved.

 

[electricaluser]

...yes, counsel as to choices we are to make as Christians seeking the righteousness of God. Loads of choices to be made:

7 Submit therefore to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. 8 Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded. 9 Be miserable and mourn and weep; let your laughter be turned into mourning and your joy to gloom. 10 Humble yourselves in the presence of the Lord, and He will exalt you." (James 4:7-10 NASB)
"(S)eek first His kingdom and His righteousness" (Matthew 6:33 NASB)

I resist this concept of Christianity that says you wait around for righteousness to happen, and in the mean time you do not purposely attempt to be righteous in behavior because that would be works and not faith, and everything is okay between you and God while your sin life flourishes unhindered. That's completely contrary to what the scriptures 'counsel' us to do:

" His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence. 4 For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust. 5 Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence, and in your moral excellence, knowledge, 6 and in your knowledge, self-control, and in your self-control, perseverance, and in your perseverance, godliness, 7 and in your godliness, brotherly kindness, and in your brotherly kindness, love. 8 For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten * his purification from his former sins. 10 Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never * * stumble" (2 Peter 1:3-10 NASB emphasis mine)

"10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up. 11 Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat! 13 But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells. 14 Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless, 15 and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, 16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so * that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness, 18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen." (2 Peter 3: NASB emphasis mine)

"the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot * please God. 9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. 10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies (note 'mortal', smaller) through His Spirit who dwells in you. 12 So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh" (Romans 8:7-12 NASB parenthesis and emphasis mine)

As Christians, we are responsible to make choices. Important and necessary choices. We are not counseled to just sit around because everything is 'ok' whether we do anything righteous or not because, supposedly, 'salvation is so utterly not of what we do'. God counsels us to 'wake up!' so that his coming will not result in an unpleasant surprise of us being assigned a place with the unbelievers and hypocrites "where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth':

"'My master is not coming for a long time,' 49 and begins to beat his fellow slaves and eat and drink with drunkards; 50 the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour which he does not know, 51 and will cut him in pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 24:49-51 NASB)

I can hear so many right now saying, "Impossible! I'm saved! That can't happen to me." Read your Bible folks.
The absence of works signifies a lack of faith. The faith one needs to be saved.

I see the works of faith as hope in action, every time I put my hope in a fellow human being then my faith is working.

 

[childeye]

Straw man!

Strawman? Are you saying you have faith in both God and yourself? Or perhaps God in you?

 

[WIP]

How's this? I find little pleasure in worldly indulgences. For example, I eat and drink for sustenance and not for pleasure. But my wife cooks to please me and so I indulge as much as I am able.

What I understood by your statement was that you indulge as much as you are able to or in other words as much as you can manage. To me this implies that you seek out opportunities to indulge either that or you are making excuses for indulgence. That's why I said I hope this was just a poor choice of words on your part.

If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God. Set your mind on things above, not on things on the earth. For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory.Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience, in which you yourselves once walked when you lived in them. But now you yourselves are to put off all these: anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy language out of your mouth. Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds, and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him, where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ is all and in all. Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, put on tender mercies, kindness, humility, meekness, longsuffering; bearing with one another, and forgiving one another, if anyone has a complaint against another; even as Christ forgave you, so you also must do. But above all these things put on love, which is the bond of perfection. And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body; and be thankful. Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. And whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through Him.
Colossians 3:1-17 NKJV

Seems like a lot of conscious choices to make according to Paul, which are in direct contrast to our nature.

 

[smaller]

I can hear so many right now saying, "Impossible! I'm saved! That can't happen to me." Read your Bible folks.
The absence of works signifies a lack of faith. The faith one needs to be saved.

Philippians 2:13
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

The "working" of God is twofold and inverse or opposite, according to this construct:

Romans 9:
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Yes, believers DO have a "vessel of dishonor" in the same lump called "me." Just as Paul did here:

2 Corinthians 12:
7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

The same Living Light of Gods Word shined on both of those vessels IN PAUL. They both GREW, one unto Mercy and one unto RESISTANCE. This "internal realty" of Paul AND the messenger of Satan in his flesh was the exact reason Paul was ABLE to truthfully say that he was the chief of sinners, AFTER salvation. 1 Tim. 1:15

Paul notes again, this identical matter, here:

Galatians 4:
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

Abraham himself, as an external ALLEGORY of this same internal reality, himself had TWO SONS. Ishmael and Isaac.

Isaac, as an external ALLEGORY of this same internal reality, himself also had these SAME TWO SONS, Esau and Jacob.

Adam, as an external ALLEGORY of this same internal reality, himself also had these SAME TWO SONS, Cain and Abel.

Moses, as an external ALLEGORY of this same internal reality, himself had these SAME TWO SONS, Gershon and Eliezer.

There are many many other examples of the above in the O.T.

It is impossible to justify or make righteous or make legal or make obedient, the son of the flesh, the TEMPTER, the messenger of Satan in the flesh. Just as it is equally impossible to condemn a son of the Spirit of God in Christ.

No son of the flesh will or is even able to submit to this reality. Every son of the spirit will be led by the fruit of the Spirit, which is HONESTY, to see themselves IN the Light of GOD's disclosures.

Jesus tells us exactly "how" this transpires in Mark 4:15 and all the other seed parables, showing how "where the Word is sown, SATAN enters the hearts to STEAL (a sin). Satan, the devil is intimately linked to every sin in 1 John 3:8.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

All unbelievers remain blinded by the "god of this world" just as Paul sees in Romans 11:32 AND in 2 Cor. 4:4 AND in 2 Cor. 3:14.

This same "spirit of disobedience" which is "the prince of the power of the air, THE DEVIL" is the same adverse spirit that we ourselves were internally captured by and blinded by, PRIOR to belief:

Ephesians 2:2
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

When we were SAVED, the tables were turned for US, and we were placed OVER that spirit, but it was NOT eliminated. It is impossible to "justify" oe make "obedient" or make "legal" the spirit of DISOBEDIENCE, in anyone.

If any believer needs to test this, they need only to observe their own EVIL CONSCIENCE to know that this is TRUE.

Hebrews 10:22
Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

God blesses NONE OF THAT working in anyone NOR is God fooled by that same working in anyone.

Here, Jesus shows us what A BLINDED RELIGIOUS PERSON does:

Luke 18:
The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.

He prayed with himself, because GOD DOES NOT LISTEN to this type of DRIVEL. They are nothing but LIES.

Paul could not be lost. The messenger of Satan in Paul's flesh could not be saved, legal, obedient or anything BUT DAMNED.

 

[smaller]

When any believer comes out from under the evil ether of the devil's lies, they are then FIT for use by God in Christ:

2 Tim. 2:
19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

In a great house there are vessels, plural. We learn that we, as Jesus advised, shall live by EVERY WORD of God. Yes, even the BAD Words. Luke 4:4, Matt. 4:4

A believer who reigns and rules over their own vessel of DISHONOR is that great house.

Joshua 24:17
For the Lord our God, he it is that brought us up and our fathers out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage, and which did those great signs in our sight, and preserved us in all the way wherein we went, and among all the people through whom we passed:

Haggai 2:9
The glory of this latter house shall be greater than of the former, saith the Lord of hosts: and in this place will I give peace, saith the Lord of hosts.

When God looked upon that rebuilt temple that came out of BABYLON, it was more glorious in His Eyes.

 

[childeye]

What I understood by your statement was that you indulge as much as you are able to or in other words as much as you can manage. To me this implies that you seek out opportunities to indulge either that or you are making excuses for indulgence. That's why I said I hope this was just a poor choice of words on your part.

I understand that, but there is another alternative you're not considering, which is why I said, "I don't deserve my wife". And I said that to show that it can be taken two ways, one good and one bad. Likewise my answer can be taken two ways, I indulge with much vigor, or I am unable to indulge with much vigor. Jesus ate and drank and was called a wino and a glutton. In fear of God, I'm not going to say I don't indulge in any carnal pleasure because that would be a lie.

If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God. Set your mind on things above, not on things on the earth. For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory.Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience, in which you yourselves once walked when you lived in them. But now you yourselves are to put off all these: anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy language out of your mouth. Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds, and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him, where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ is all and in all. Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, put on tender mercies, kindness, humility, meekness, longsuffering; bearing with one another, and forgiving one another, if anyone has a complaint against another; even as Christ forgave you, so you also must do. But above all these things put on love, which is the bond of perfection. And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body; and be thankful. Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. And whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through Him.
Colossians 3:1-17 NKJV

Seems like a lot of conscious choices to make according to Paul, which are in direct contrast to our nature.

Which is why I'm here arguing that there exists a New nature, rather than saying all we have to do is decide to be tender and merciful, and kind, and humble.

 

[JLB]

Paul could not be lost. The messenger of Satan in Paul's flesh could not be saved, legal, obedient or anything BUT DAMNED.

No such thing as a messenger of Satan "in Paul's flesh".

The thorn in Paul's flesh is a reference, an idiomatic reference, "for a source of irritation", not a literal thorn in Paul's flesh, or a literal angel or demon placed in Paul's flesh.


JLB

 

[smaller]

No such thing as a messenger of Satan "in Paul's flesh".

No son of the flesh will or can admit that they are tempted internally by the tempter. They will deny it til their dying breath.

2 Corinthians 12:7
And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

I don't see how this can be any plainer or clearer. Yet, it can not be seen and will in fact be DENIED.

 

[smaller]

James 1:
2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Philippians 2:13
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

The "working" of God is twofold and inverse or opposite, according to this construct:

Romans 9:
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Yes, believers DO have a "vessel of dishonor" in the same lump called "me." Just as Paul did here:

2 Corinthians 12:
7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

The same Living Light of Gods Word shined on both of those vessels IN PAUL. They both GREW, one unto Mercy and one unto RESISTANCE. This "internal realty" of Paul AND the messenger of Satan in his flesh was the exact reason Paul was ABLE to truthfully say that he was the chief of sinners, AFTER salvation. 1 Tim. 1:15

Paul notes again, this identical matter, here:

Galatians 4:
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

Abraham himself, as an external ALLEGORY of this same internal reality, himself had TWO SONS. Ishmael and Isaac.

Isaac, as an external ALLEGORY of this same internal reality, himself also had these SAME TWO SONS, Esau and Jacob.

Adam, as an external ALLEGORY of this same internal reality, himself also had these SAME TWO SONS, Cain and Abel.

Moses, as an external ALLEGORY of this same internal reality, himself had these SAME TWO SONS, Gershon and Eliezer.

There are many many other examples of the above in the O.T.

It is impossible to justify or make righteous or make legal or make obedient, the son of the flesh, the TEMPTER, the messenger of Satan in the flesh. Just as it is equally impossible to condemn a son of the Spirit of God in Christ.

No son of the flesh will or is even able to submit to this reality. Every son of the spirit will be led by the fruit of the Spirit, which is HONESTY, to see themselves IN the Light of GOD's disclosures.

Jesus tells us exactly "how" this transpires in Mark 4:15 and all the other seed parables, showing how "where the Word is sown, SATAN enters the hearts to STEAL (a sin). Satan, the devil is intimately linked to every sin in 1 John 3:8.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

All unbelievers remain blinded by the "god of this world" just as Paul sees in Romans 11:32 AND in 2 Cor. 4:4 AND in 2 Cor. 3:14.

This same "spirit of disobedience" which is "the prince of the power of the air, THE DEVIL" is the same adverse spirit that we ourselves were internally captured by and blinded by, PRIOR to belief:

Ephesians 2:2
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

When we were SAVED, the tables were turned for US, and we were placed OVER that spirit, but it was NOT eliminated. It is impossible to "justify" oe make "obedient" or make "legal" the spirit of DISOBEDIENCE, in anyone.

If any believer needs to test this, they need only to observe their own EVIL CONSCIENCE to know that this is TRUE.

Hebrews 10:22
Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

God blesses NONE OF THAT working in anyone NOR is God fooled by that same working in anyone.

Here, Jesus shows us what A BLINDED RELIGIOUS PERSON does:

Luke 18:
The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.

He prayed with himself, because GOD DOES NOT LISTEN to this type of DRIVEL. They are nothing but LIES.

Paul could not be lost. The messenger of Satan in Paul's flesh could not be saved, legal, obedient or anything BUT DAMNED.

You give waaaaaaay too much power to the sin nature. Being a faith-filled Christian means looking at the giants in the land and saying, "we can take 'em". But you have the Christian cowering in fear in a kind of misguided reverence of the evil that tempts us.

He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot * please God. 9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you." (Romans 8:3-9 NASB emphasis mine)

See what it says? If you belong to God YOU ARE NOT IN THE FLESH, but in the Spirit, and able to please God. So please, stop giving so much credit to the power of evil and start encouraging people in what the Bible says is the greater power within us.

Victory over the world and sin is by faith (1 John 5:4 NASB). You believe what God says about the power of the Spirit within us that overcomes the power of sin. Not perfect victory, but a progression of victories that leads us to the life and abundance that Christ said he came to give us (John 10:10 NASB). So let's stop counseling people to be comfortable in defeat and cringe before the power of the enemy and accepting that defeat and encourage them to rise up by faith in the power of the Spirit to put to death the misdeeds of the flesh. That is how we reckon ourselves dead to sin, but alive to God (Romans 6:11 NASB).

 

[smaller]

You give waaaaaaay too much power to the sin nature.

If the whole world lies in wickedness (1 John 5:19) and sin is of the devil (1 John 3:8), it is a rather pointless undertaking NOT to see the facts.

Being a faith-filled Christian means looking at the giants in the land and saying, "we can take 'em". But you have the Christian cowering in fear in a kind of misguided reverence of the evil that tempts us.

It is not my practice to condemn any believer.

See what it says? If you belong to God YOU ARE NOT IN THE FLESH, but in the Spirit, and able to please God. So please, stop giving so much credit to the power of evil and start encouraging people in what the Bible says is the greater power within us.

You say you have no "internal" contentions? lol

Ephesians 6:12
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

If any believer can not perceive that part of this wrestling match is with internal temptations of THE TEMPTER, what do you expect me to say about that?

Paul certainly admitted having to deal with both a messenger of Satan in his own flesh (2 Cor. 12:7) and temptations in his flesh (Gal. 4:14). It doesn't take a spiritual genius to connect the dots here unless they themselves are blinded to the obvious connection by the PROBLEM.

Victory over the world and sin is by faith (1 John 5:4 NASB). You believe what God says about the power of the Spirit within us that overcomes the power of sin. Not perfect victory, but a progression of victories that leads us to the life and abundance that Christ said he came to give us (John 10:10 NASB). So let's stop counseling people to be comfortable in defeat and cringe before the power of the enemy and accepting that defeat and encourage them to rise up by faith in the power of the Spirit to put to death the misdeeds of the flesh. That is how we reckon ourselves dead to sin, but alive to God (Romans 6:11 NASB).

I have no idea what you think you are hearing, claiming that hearing to be what has been presented. It only takes a very TINY bit of real honesty to understand that the tempter tempts WITHIN our own temple, placing same WHERE?

There will be NO BASIS and NO JUSTIFICATIONS and NO RIGHTEOUSNESS to that working or worker in ANY form, no matter how much religious pastes are applied.

That is also why we are justified by faith alone, by Grace Alone, through Christ ALONE and His Mercy, Alone.

We, personally, don't have a LEG to stand of our own.

 

[childeye]

...yes, counsel as to choices we are to make as Christians seeking the righteousness of God. Loads of choices to be made:

We both agree that the counsel in the scriptures our Lord provides, is good counsel. So we're not enemies and you and I are agreeing that they show the direction to life. So we're not even debating that there exists two contrary directions, one towards life and one towards death. Therefore we're not debating that there is a choice to be made concerning Life and death. We're debating whether it is a choice/decision a man can make and accomplish apart from God's Spirit. The answer is no.

7 Submit therefore to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. 8 Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded. 9 Be miserable and mourn and weep; let your laughter be turned into mourning and your joy to gloom. 10 Humble yourselves in the presence of the Lord, and He will exalt you." (James 4:7-10 NASB)
"(S)eek first His kingdom and His righteousness" (Matthew 6:33 NASB)

I see that this scripture describes Christ's Spirit. It describes a necessary purifying of the heart through Christ. It says that there exists a double mindedness which I take to mean free will, as in serving two masters choosing back and forth between contrary powers. To your credit, you are saying make up your mind, and I bow to that. I see we are to humble ourselves in admitting we're not all that and in need of Christ. To seek His righteousness is to first concede we don't have it, of our own volition. This is where you should bow in return.

I resist this concept of Christianity that says you wait around for righteousness to happen, and in the mean time you do not purposely attempt to be righteous in behavior because that would be works and not faith, and everything is okay between you and God while your sin life flourishes unhindered. That's completely contrary to what the scriptures 'counsel' us to do:

I totally agree that is not Christianity. But the way you describe it, coveys a common misunderstanding about what people like me are saying.

" His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence. 4 For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust. 5 Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence, and in your moral excellence, knowledge, 6 and in your knowledge, self-control, and in your self-control, perseverance, and in your perseverance, godliness, 7 and in your godliness, brotherly kindness, and in your brotherly kindness, love. 8 For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten * his purification from his former sins. 10 Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never * * stumble" (2 Peter 1:3-10 NASB emphasis mine)

It's as if you aren't even reading this scripture. His divine power is not speaking about the power of will. His granting us everything to life is not speaking about the will of man. And most important of all, through the knowledge of Him, which means that through knowing God everything else is accomplished. That is the whole point of the Gospel, so that no man can glory over another.
It does speak to the need for diligence, perseverance, where our faith is concerned. I'm pretty sure we don't see the terms freewill and faith quite the same.

12 So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh" (Romans 8:7-12 NASB parenthesis and emphasis mine)

As Christians, we are responsible to make choices. Important and necessary choices. We are not counseled to just sit around because everything is 'ok' whether we do anything righteous or not because, supposedly, 'salvation is so utterly not of what we do'. God counsels us to 'wake up!' so that his coming will not result in an unpleasant surprise of us being assigned a place with the unbelievers and hypocrites "where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth':

I appreciate your message. But I am not your enemy. I'm agreeing with you. What I don't agree with you about is the term freewill. Above you say Important and necessary choices. That is well said. I have already showed you from the dictionary that free will choices are not choices made out of necessity. But you just shrugged me off as if what the term means is unimportant.

"'My master is not coming for a long time,' 49 and begins to beat his fellow slaves and eat and drink with drunkards; 50 the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour which he does not know, 51 and will cut him in pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 24:49-51 NASB)

I can hear so many right now saying, "Impossible! I'm saved! That can't happen to me." Read your Bible folks.
The absence of works signifies a lack of faith. The faith one needs to be saved.

Like I said, I appreciate your message, but we're arguing semantics. There are two types of works, and faith and freewill are not the same things.

 

[JLB]

Yes, believers DO have a "vessel of dishonor" in the same lump called "me." Just as Paul did here:

No sir!

The person themself is either a vessel of honor or a vessel of dishonor.

20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay, some for honor and some for dishonor. 21 Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work.
2 Timothy 2:20-21

Based on this scripture we don't have a vessel of honor or a vessel of dishonor in us, rather we can become a vessel of honor if we cleanse ourself from being a vessel of dishonor.

We are the vessel.


JLB

 

[childeye]

Why must it be by faith? John 9:

33 If this man were not of God, he could do nothing.
34 They answered and said unto him, Thou wast altogether born in sins, and dost thou teach us? And they cast him out.
35 Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God?
36 He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him?
37 And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee.
38 And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.
39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.

 

[JLB]

My apologies. I meant to cite in my last post, 1 John 1:8, Romans 6:1, Romans 6:12, Romans 7:13, Romans 7:21 etc.

I do not consider it a sin, to admit that I am a sinner, saved by Grace. To me this is "truthful discourse" amongst us.

I do find it somewhat strange to have to make and prove this case with other believers. It is probably the easiest scriptural ground to prove to any of us, and firmly establishes that we are saved by Grace Alone, through Christ Jesus.

The good news is we can indeed cleanse ourselves and become a vessel of honor, fit for the Masters use.

Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work. 2 Tim 2:21

The good news is we can reckon ourselves dead to sin and alive unto God.

11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:11


The good news we can, by the Spirit, put to death the deeds of the flesh...

but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
Romans 8:13


The good news is we can walk after the Spirit, and not after the flesh.
Romans 8:1-2

The good news is we can walk in the light, as He is in the light, and have fellowship, one with another and be cleansed of all unrighteousness by His precious blood. 1 John 1:7



But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.
Romans 6:22


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Therefore we're not debating that there is a choice to be made concerning Life and death. We're debating whether it is a choice/decision a man can make and accomplish apart from God's Spirit. The answer is no.

Everybody knows that apart from God sinners have no choice but to stay sinners. The argument is we have freewill to be righteous in Christ--that is, as long as we are submitting ourselves to righteousness, not unrighteousness:

"16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
19 ...just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification." (Romans 6:16,19 NASB)

It's wrong to excuse sin in the Christian on the basis of a lack of free will. It's plain to see that we have the freewill to submit our members to either righteousness or lawlessness. By faith we exercise that freewill.

 

[smaller]

No sir!
The person themself is either a vessel of honor or a vessel of dishonor.

20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay, some for honor and some for dishonor. 21 Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work.

The vessel of dishonor is never pleased with open disclosure. It always "resists" the disclosures of God, by nature. In other words, it is forced to LIE, to SIN, to TEMPT, to DECEIVE, to HIDE, to DESTROY, all by the nature of it's construct. John 8:44

John 10:10
The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

WHEN anyone sees that their sins are of the devil, they realize that they are or have been pawns to another that is not them, and they speak truthfully, they are divided by and noted by honesty. And they will FIGHT against being internally manipulated.

Based on this scripture we don't have a vessel of honor or a vessel of dishonor in us, rather we can become a vessel of honor if we cleanse ourself from being a vessel of dishonor.

Paul was assuredly NOT the messenger of Satan in his flesh.

There is no changing a vessel of dishonor INTO a vessel of honor NOR are devils saved. I've given many scriptures showing that the vessel of dishonor is the spirit of disobedience that "man" in their spiritual blindness is placed UNDER. That spirit is NOT them, but is the "god of this world." The devil, Satan, the deceiver and the tempter who operates IN mankind. The Gospels are FILLED to the brim with Jesus' encounters with this "entity class" that is not and was not MANKIND, but was WITHIN mankind. It's one of the most covered up SECRETS within christianity and it is SO because of "their deceptions working" in believers.

Nobody in today's world takes this matter seriously. Almost every believer falsely thinks themselves to be "exempt." Everyone thinks "it's only themselves." And that there is no "internal deceiver" other than themselves.

The spirit of disobedience can not and will never be anything other than what it is. A vessel of dishonor, that God in Christ has PROMISED to DESTROY.

That is why we stand on faith in Christ, through His Grace and Mercy. When we see "ourselves" honestly, we should take into account WHY this has to be. And this is because there are NO justifications available or even possible for the vessel of dishonor "in the lump of me." Romans 9:18-22

And in this we are MINDFUL that God, in His Divine Sovereignty can and will HARDEN that vessel in resistance. The world itself is FILLED with this hardening.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Jesus' most vehement warnings were laid upon the members of the religious class. And were so for good reasons. Because they were the "first in line" for INTERNAL ATTACKS by the tempter ala Mark 4:15.

Matt. 23:
33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

These were RUN AMOK in the clergy class of Israel, and had CAPTURED them and blinded them within.

These 'things,' these anti-Christ spirits of disobedience are vicious and vehement in their work against God in Christ. And are MADE to be that way. Their "ways" are noted in great details by Jesus in order for "believers" to recognize THEM in anyone, STARTING WITH OURSELVES. The easiest sign to see is HYPOCRISY, when "believers" can NOT speak truthfully about this, and they insulate and isolate themselves from being sinners, or their sin being of the devil. And even worse, when they vainly try to "justify" themselves, as this is impossible in the Eyes of God.

The Prophets are KILLED for their disclosures of these entities, revealing them, and speaking the rightful WOES and DAMNATION that will come upon them.

Matt. 23:
31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.

Nobody "personally" likes to hear this message. And God has made it so.

If anyone "really" thinks they want to be a believer, a disciple, then they will come to know the hatred of these beings, these "men" of SIN.

Luke 21:17
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.

1 John 3:13
Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.

God WILL pull back the curtains of this matter to ANY believer in Truth, in real time, and you WILL see your enemies, face to face. Those enemies are not PEOPLE. They are the captors OF THE PEOPLE. And it is GOD'S PLEASURE TO REVEAL them.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

through the knowledge of Him, which means that through knowing God everything else is accomplished. That is the whole point of the Gospel, so that no man can glory over another.
It does speak to the need for diligence, perseverance, where our faith is concerned. I'm pretty sure we don't see the terms freewill and faith quite the same.

It does speak of our need for the diligence of faith. Ultimately, our primary duty is to believe. God gives the gracious gift of faith so that we can believe. Some choose to abandon that faith and stop believing, their lack of works being the evidence of that choice to walk away from faith in Christ and stop believing.

13 "Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away." (Luke 8:13 NASB)

If it's not man's responsibility to do the believing then God is at fault when the person illustrated in the 2nd type of soil above stops believing and falls away.

Ultimately, the answer to the OP is 'Faith without works......really isn't faith'......at least not the faith that saves.

 

[dadof10]

Perhaps I don't have perfect faith yet, ever thought of that?

Hummmmm...why would that be? "Yet" implies progress, and sin inhibits that progress. How do you get a "perfect faith?"