Faith without works........is Faith.

[JLB]

The vessel of dishonor is never pleased with open disclosure. It always "resists" the disclosures of God, by nature. In other words, it is forced to LIE, to SIN, to TEMPT, to DECEIVE, to HIDE, to DESTROY, all by the nature of it's construct. John 8:44

John 10:10
The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

WHEN anyone sees that their sins are of the devil, they realize that they are or have been pawns to another that is not them, and they speak truthfully, they are divided by and noted by honesty. And they will FIGHT against being internally manipulated.


Paul was assuredly NOT the messenger of Satan in his flesh.

There is no changing a vessel of dishonor INTO a vessel of honor NOR are devils saved. I've given many scriptures showing that the vessel of dishonor is the spirit of disobedience that "man" in their spiritual blindness is placed UNDER. That spirit is NOT them, but is the "god of this world." The devil, Satan, the deceiver and the tempter who operates IN mankind. The Gospels are FILLED to the brim with Jesus' encounters with this "entity class" that is not and was not MANKIND, but was WITHIN mankind. It's one of the most covered up SECRETS within christianity and it is SO because of "their deceptions working" in believers.

Nobody in today's world takes this matter seriously. Almost every believer falsely thinks themselves to be "exempt." Everyone thinks "it's only themselves." And that there is no "internal deceiver" other than themselves.

The spirit of disobedience can not and will never be anything other than what it is. A vessel of dishonor, that God in Christ has PROMISED to DESTROY.

That is why we stand on faith in Christ, through His Grace and Mercy. When we see "ourselves" honestly, we should take into account WHY this has to be. And this is because there are NO justifications available or even possible for the vessel of dishonor "in the lump of me." Romans 9:18-22

And in this we are MINDFUL that God, in His Divine Sovereignty can and will HARDEN that vessel in resistance. The world itself is FILLED with this hardening.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Jesus' most vehement warnings were laid upon the members of the religious class. And were so for good reasons. Because they were the "first in line" for INTERNAL ATTACKS by the tempter ala Mark 4:15.

Matt. 23:
33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

These were RUN AMOK in the clergy class of Israel, and had CAPTURED them and blinded them within.

These 'things,' these anti-Christ spirits of disobedience are vicious and vehement in their work against God in Christ. And are MADE to be that way. Their "ways" are noted in great details by Jesus in order for "believers" to recognize THEM in anyone, STARTING WITH OURSELVES. The easiest sign to see is HYPOCRISY, when "believers" can NOT speak truthfully about this, and they insulate and isolate themselves from being sinners, or their sin being of the devil. And even worse, when they vainly try to "justify" themselves, as this is impossible in the Eyes of God.

The Prophets are KILLED for their disclosures of these entities, revealing them, and speaking the rightful WOES and DAMNATION that will come upon them.

Matt. 23:
31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.

Nobody "personally" likes to hear this message. And God has made it so.

If anyone "really" thinks they want to be a believer, a disciple, then they will come to know the hatred of these beings, these "men" of SIN.

Luke 21:17
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.

1 John 3:13
Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.

God WILL pull back the curtains of this matter to ANY believer in Truth, in real time, and you WILL see your enemies, face to face. Those enemies are not PEOPLE. They are the captors OF THE PEOPLE. And it is GOD'S PLEASURE TO REVEAL them.

Still you keep talking in circles while never addressing the scripture that shows "we" are the vessel, as opposed to your "theory" that we have both a vessel of dishonor and honor within us.

We are the vessel, either a vessel of honor, if we cleanse ourselves, or of dishonor if we don't.

Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work. 2 Tim 2:21


Your theory supposes that we are what we are, and we just have to recognize it, but never take action to deal with the things that we ourselves have become, through our choices in our former life without Christ and His nature and His Spirit working within us...

The Lord gives us His name and His Spirit and His word, so that we ourselves, can CLEANSE OURSELVES from being a vessel of dishonor.

Please don't bother to cite a vast array of many scriptures that have nothing to do with this scripture we are discussing.

Please address 2 Timothy 2:21 and what it teaches.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

What I don't agree with you about is the term freewill. Above you say Important and necessary choices. That is well said. I have already showed you from the dictionary that free will choices are not choices made out of necessity. But you just shrugged me off as if what the term means is unimportant.

I blew it off because no reasonable person will disagree that an element of necessity in choosing whether to eat strawberry or chocolate ice cream is required in order for that choice to be considered a freewill choice.

I don't know where you got your definition from, but if you got it from Strong's you have to be careful to remember that Strong's lists Biblical uses of a word which are not to be confused with hard and fast definitions of a word.

 

[childeye]

Everybody knows that apart from God sinners have no choice but to stay sinners. The argument is we have freewill to be righteous in Christ--that is, as long as we are submitting ourselves to righteousness, not unrighteousness:

That's a completely comprehensive description of a free will. Yes, but that is not what freewill means in any dictionary I've ever seen. So that, if I may point out, that according to your definition, those who are Muslims do not have free wills, because they do not have Christ, nor do Hindus or Atheists or agnostics, nor Jews. Moreover, those who were called the Christians who burned people alive for not believing in Christ, did not have free wills either, even though they proclaimed Christ as their Lord.

It's wrong to excuse sin in the Christian on the basis of a lack of free will. It's plain to see that we have the freewill to submit our members to either righteousness or lawlessness. By faith we exercise that freewill.

When you say it's wrong to excuse sin in the Christian based on lack of freewill, I can only marvel at the confusion that the term freewill brings. I know you're going by a different definition of freewill. But really, for all intensive purposes, you are using freewill the same way, to accuse other Christians for what we all do in some degree according to our measure of faith and diminishing infirmity of the flesh. The flesh doesn't die overnight as far as I know, and because of this weakness, we all need mercy and understanding.

If you will recall, it was the self glory in perfection, that led Satan to vanity, which led to his iniquity, which led to his sin. For Satan did not understand perfection, even because he did not understand God. Therefore God chooses the lowly to bring to nothing the mighty so that no one may glory over another. Forgiveness, is our Godliness, and it does excuse, and for good reason.

Look at this scripture you continually use to justify you're thinking that it's wrong to excuse sin. 16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
19 ...just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification." (Romans 6:16,19 NASB

Now, this above is what you think says we have freewill and therefore sin is inexcusable. Now look at this scripture. Colossians 3:12-15. NKJV

Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, put on tender mercies, kindness, humility, meekness, longsuffering; bearing with one another, and forgiving one another, if anyone has a complaint against another; even as Christ forgave you, so you also must do. But above all these things put on love, which is the bond of perfection. And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body; and be thankful.

So, you see here, we do have some things we need to excuse and forgive, even as there are many coming out of sin just like ourselves. The Spirit of Christ is longsuffering with tender mercies. I would rather find every reason to excuse until convinced by the Holy Spirit that it is not excusable, and even then, I leave that to God.. Romans 14:4. This is why I serve Christ and not Satan. So that if I do not follow this merciful way of grace, I am in fact yielding to unrighteousness, since it is not doing what I would have done to me. Romans 6:19.

 

[childeye]

I blew it off because no reasonable person will disagree that an element of necessity in choosing whether to eat strawberry or chocolate ice cream is required in order for that choice to be considered a freewill choice.

Okay, but that is not what is meant by necessity. Necessity applies to matters of life and death, or choosing lesser disaster to avoid greater disaster. Choosing a flavor of ice cream does in fact qualify as a voluntary choice. That is why I stay in the confines of the moral purview in arguing against freewill.

But another part of freewill that is a problem for me, is that these choices cannot be constrained by fate or divine power. That means freewill turns the Spirit of Love into a voluntary choice, and not the life giving Spirit that is God. Also it denies sin is as a condition we are born with. Freewill does not acknowledge God nor the absence of God in any moral choice. That is why you see choices in scripture, while I see sound counsel.

The commandment of Christ is not a choice to me, but the way to life. If you were to say a free will is one set free from sin and death, I would agree with you. But if you say a free will is both free to sin and yet free to not sin, then that is what scripture calls double minded. For Christ is a Living Spirit wherein scripture says," For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death". Romans 8:2. Having been made free through the law of Christ, it is not plausible that I can consider my freedom lies in being able to choose the other. Death is the enemy, and not our friend.

I don't know where you got your definition from, but if you got it from Strong's you have to be careful to remember that Strong's lists Biblical uses of a word which are not to be confused with hard and fast definitions of a word.

Actually, that is the common definition which you will find in most any dictionary. It varies slightly depending upon the dictionary.

 

[childeye]

It does speak of our need for the diligence of faith. Ultimately, our primary duty is to believe. God gives the gracious gift of faith so that we can believe. Some choose to abandon that faith and stop believing, their lack of works being the evidence of that choice to walk away from faith in Christ and stop believing.

13 "Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away." (Luke 8:13 NASB)

If it's not man's responsibility to do the believing then God is at fault when the person illustrated in the 2nd type of soil above stops believing and falls away.

You believe in free will. That is part of your faith, is it not? Hence you must blame God if it is not this man who is not responsible for having no firm root. Here Jesus does not say anything about choice, but is speaking about circumstances that affect the outcome. In fact no where in this parable does free will have anything to do with how the seed bears fruit, it's all circumstantial.

But because your faith is in free will, the words of our Lord are not heard. It's as if the devil came and stole them away so that the doctrine of free will can survive. And what is this doctrine used for? To blame. You therefore do not comprehend the beginnings of the accusing of what is Holy. Satan works both ends against the middle, so that as long as someone is blamed, his lie stays alive. Therefore he is both tempter and accuser and blame is the game. You need to see the no blame scenario, so that you can see how it is possible for there to be occasion to blame when in fact no one has done anything wrong. Then you will understand the faith better. Here is a small taste of that wickedness as described by our Lord.

Matthew 11:15-20King James Version (KJV)
15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
16 But whereunto shall I liken this generation? It is like unto children sitting in the markets, and calling unto their fellows,
17 And saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned unto you, and ye have not lamented.
18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil.
19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.
20 Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not:

Ultimately, the answer to the OP is 'Faith without works......really isn't faith'......at least not the faith that saves.

Ever notice that words can carry many different and even opposite connotations? The terms works and faith are subjective, unless relative to something, just like the term free in free will. So if works of faith are not distinguished from works of the law, then we are left arguing in semantic confusion both thinking we're right when we're talking about works. And the same thing with faith, if we don't qualify that faith. What ripe ignorance for Satan to bring forth division and obscure Christ. So we agree on diligence to the faith, but what is that faith in? Then we shall see the works of that faith and judge if that is even faith at all..

 

[childeye]

Hummmmm...why would that be? "Yet" implies progress, and sin inhibits that progress. How do you get a "perfect faith?"

Is this a rhetorical question? If not, the answer is here. Matthew 19:21.

 

[dadof10]

Is this a rhetorical question?

Nope.

 

[childeye]

Nope.

Then the answer should be realized here, Matthew 19:21.

 

[dadof10]

Then the answer should be realized here, Matthew 19:21.

So perfect faith means keeping the commandments and giving to the poor, which means doing good deeds, commonly called "works"? Look at the context. The rich man asks Jesus "what must I do to inherit eternal life?" His answer is "keep the commandments". Jesus then says to be perfect, the man must DO something else, go, sell, give and follow.The only conclusion I can draw form this is that you think faith is perfected by good deeds done in faith. "Works" like keeping the commandments and charitable giving..

 

[dadof10]

Then the answer should be realized here, Matthew 19:21.

Also, ANY TIME Jesus commands us to do anything, there is always the implication that we can CHOOSE not to do them, otherwise, why tell us what to do? If your view was true, Scripture would speak ONLY of having faith (a freewill decision), then Jesus would simply say to the rich man "once you accept me as personal Lord and Savior, I will work through you to do all the good things you will need to do. So don't worry about what you need to do the inherit eternal life because I will be doing them through you."

 

[childeye]

So perfect faith means keeping the commandments and giving to the poor, which means doing good deeds, commonly called "works"? Look at the context. The rich man asks Jesus "what must I do to inherit eternal life?" His answer is "keep the commandments". Jesus then says to be perfect, the man must DO something else, go, sell, give and follow. The only conclusion I can draw form this is that you think faith is perfected by good deeds done in faith. "Works" like keeping the commandments and charitable giving..

Yes, I do believe there are two things that show the works that come from faith in the Christ. Loving God with all the heart mind and soul, and Loving others as I would want to be loved. All works of Love. That's what I see in the Christ, the perfect Love, which is why I have faith in him as God's Son. God is Love and He abides in us by Faith, and we in Him, by Faith. From faith to faith. Where that faith in Him is perfect, I would think that His Love in us is perfected. The term faith, meaning trust in Who He is. 1 Corinthians 13:13.

 

[childeye]

Also, ANY TIME Jesus commands us to do anything, there is always the implication that we can CHOOSE not to do them, otherwise, why tell us what to do? If your view was true, Scripture would speak ONLY of having faith (a freewill decision), then Jesus would simply say to the rich man "once you accept me as personal Lord and Savior, I will work through you to do all the good things you will need to do. So don't worry about what you need to do the inherit eternal life because I will be doing them through you."

Say what? You sound like Christ doesn't live in us and we in him. We are his body and he is the head, all orchestrated by the Holy Spirit. You have already testified on record to this phenomenon. The only one implying there's a choice is Satan. God is the Spirit in us. How do we love others as we would want to be loved without empathy? 1 John 4:8.

 

[dadof10]

Yes, I do believe there are two things that show the works that come from faith in the Christ. Loving God with all the heart mind and soul, and Loving others as I would want to be loved. All works of Love. That's what I see in the Christ, the perfect Love, which is why I have faith in him as God's Son. God is Love and He abides in us by Faith, and we in Him, by Faith. From faith to faith. Where that faith in Him is perfect, I would think that His Love in us is perfected. The term faith, meaning trust in Who He is. 1 Corinthians 13:13.

OK, thanks for that. Would you like to deal with Mat. 19:21 now? What you wrote above has very little to do with my response. I finally decided to get into the Greek on this passage, something I really hate to do (it's just so tedious and boring). Here is the verse:

"Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me." (KJV)

"Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven.Then come, follow me.” (NIV)

"Jesus said to him, “If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.” (NASB)

"Jesus told him, “If you want to be perfect, go and sell all your possessions and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” (NLT)

The key word to the subject at hand is "thou wilt", thelō in Greek. Here is the entry from Strong's:

1. to will, have in mind, intend
   
   
   1. to be resolved or determined, to purpose
      
      
   2. to desire, to wish
      
      
   3. to love
      
      1. to like to do a thing, be fond of doing
         
   4. to take delight in, have pleasure

thel'-o; apparently strengthened from the alternate form of G138; to determine (as an active option from subjective impulse; whereas G1014 properly denotes rather a passive acquiescence in objective considerations), i.e. choose or prefer (literally or figuratively); by implication, to wish, i.e. be inclined to (sometimes adverbially, gladly); impersonally for the future tense, to be about to; by Hebraism, to delight in:—desire, be disposed (forward), intend, list, love, mean, please, have rather, (be) will (have, -ling, - ling(-ly)).

I see ONLY choice in this entry.

Now, what about the root words mentioned for above thelo?

Entry G138- haireō

1. to take for oneself, to prefer, choose
   
   
2. to choose by vote, elect to office

And entry G1014- boulomai

1. to will deliberately, have a purpose, be minded
   
   
2. of willing as an affection, to desire
   

We have Jesus saying to the Rich man that if he wishes (wills, intends, resolves, desires, chooses, prefers) to perfect his faith, he has to "sell...give...and follow". This seems to be right in the "moral purview" wheelhouse to me.

So, according to Scripture, according to Jesus, if we want to perfect our faith (in the "moral purview") we must choose to do good deeds.

I'm glad that's over...

 

[childeye]

OK, thanks for that. Would you like to deal with Mat. 19:21 now? What you wrote above has very little to do with my response. I finally decided to get into the Greek on this passage, something I really hate to do (it's just so tedious and boring). Here is the verse:

"Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me." (KJV)

"Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven.Then come, follow me.” (NIV)

"Jesus said to him, “If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.” (NASB)

"Jesus told him, “If you want to be perfect, go and sell all your possessions and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” (NLT)

The key word to the subject at hand is "thou wilt", thelō in Greek. Here is the entry from Strong's:

1. to will, have in mind, intend
   1. to be resolved or determined, to purpose
      
      
   2. to desire, to wish
      
      
   3. to love
      1. to like to do a thing, be fond of doing
   4. to take delight in, have pleasure

thel'-o; apparently strengthened from the alternate form of G138; to determine (as an active option from subjective impulse; whereas G1014 properly denotes rather a passive acquiescence in objective considerations), i.e. choose or prefer (literally or figuratively); by implication, to wish, i.e. be inclined to (sometimes adverbially, gladly); impersonally for the future tense, to be about to; by Hebraism, to delight in:—desire, be disposed (forward), intend, list, love, mean, please, have rather, (be) will (have, -ling, - ling(-ly)).

I see ONLY choice in this entry.

Now, what about the root words mentioned for above thelo?

Entry G138- haireō

1. to take for oneself, to prefer, choose
   
   
2. to choose by vote, elect to office

And entry G1014- boulomai

1. to will deliberately, have a purpose, be minded
   
   
2. of willing as an affection, to desire

We have Jesus saying to the Rich man that if he wishes (wills, intends, resolves, desires, chooses, prefers) to perfect his faith, he has to "sell...give...and follow". This seems to be right in the "moral purview" wheelhouse to me.

So, according to Scripture, according to Jesus, if we want to perfect our faith (in the "moral purview") we must choose to do good deeds.

I'm glad that's over...

Did I tell you I love you. I can't believe the determination you show to turn thelo into choose. I'm honored that you argue with me. But here's the problem, which is always the problem for free will. We can't do it, even when we want to, not of ourselves. Notice thelo says to take for oneself above. This man wants to be perfect, but it is vanity when it is for one's self. Hence the following occurs.

22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.
23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

So it is, that I am not a believer in freewill. I can only choose to sin apart from God despite my best effort. So according to scripture, according to Jesus, if we want to have perfect faith, we must understand why God made us corruptible. To show that He alone makes a man good. The Truth is so high you can't get over it, so low, you can't get under it, so wide you can't get around it, you must go in through the door. So with this in mind, how shall we humble ourselves in all Truth. And what is faith pointing to? Righteousness by God's Grace. Romans 9:16.

 

[smaller]

Still you keep talking in circles while never addressing the scripture that shows "we" are the vessel, as opposed to your "theory" that we have both a vessel of dishonor and honor within us.

It's not my "theory." Paul laid these facts upon himself. I observe, and follow his tracks. Romans 7:17-21, 2 Cor. 12:7, 1 Tim. 1:15. The short summary. It is not some fantastic "leap of faith" to perceive that we are tempted internally by the tempter, so THERE is the vessel of dishonor "in the lump." It just takes a wee tiny bit of honesty to see it.

Your theory supposes that we are what we are, and we just have to recognize it, but never take action to deal with the things that we ourselves have become, through our choices in our former life without Christ and His nature and His Spirit working within us...

We are "saved" children of God who will NEVER make the tempter or any of his ways and works legal, obedient or under Grace. It is foolish to think otherwise.

 

[smaller]

So, according to Scripture, according to Jesus, if we want to perfect our faith (in the "moral purview") we must choose to do good deeds.

I'm glad that's over...

It's only unfortunate that "good deeds" get turned into "law and penalty and condemnation" when such are things done by loving spiritual nature to begin with. There is no "law/penalty" against matters of the fruit of the spirit, nor can there be. Nor can any "law" make such things transpire, as they are spiritual in our nature.

Galatians 5:
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

It's always unfortunate when "believers" make various matters into law/penalty/condemnation where there is none to be had to start with. It is our joy do walk in these matters, and to grow in them. Not condemn ourselves over them. There is no ritual performance law that can extract these measures and things of the Spirit working in anyone. It's the only glue that holds the world together.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

That's a completely comprehensive description of a free will. Yes, but that is not what freewill means in any dictionary I've ever seen. So that, if I may point out, that according to your definition, those who are Muslims do not have free wills, because they do not have Christ, nor do Hindus or Atheists or agnostics, nor Jews. Moreover, those who were called the Christians who burned people alive for not believing in Christ, did not have free wills either, even though they proclaimed Christ as their Lord.

Why can't free will mean the ability to make a choice unhindered by forces that limit that choice? The only time a person does not have free will is when they can not exercise that freedom of choice because of various circumstances that restrict that choice. You're making this much too complicated.

Romans 6 is all about laying hold by faith the unhindered freedom of choice God has given us to serve him. The evil one and his servants tell us we are powerless to choose to serve God and are doomed to obey him instead. By faith we say that is not true and we surrender our members as slaves to righteousness instead. And just because God is the power that makes that possible doesn't mean we don't have free choice as to whether or not we're going to use it.

 

[dadof10]

Did I tell you I love you. I can't believe the determination you show to turn thelo into choose.

It's what the word means. The word means "choose". I don't know how else to put it. To deny this is to deny that Greek words translate into English. Jesus said if you choose to be perfect...It's not me who is determined to deny the plain definition of the word Jesus used, it's you. Please tell me what thelo means if not "choose".

I'm honored that you argue with me. But here's the problem, which is always the problem for free will. We can't do it, even when we want to, not of ourselves. Notice thelo says to take for oneself above.

No, that's "haireō" and it's an "alternate form" of the word "thelo". The only reason I included it was to stress the meaning of "thelo". If Jesus wanted to convey "take for ones self" He would have used "haireō". Instead, He used "thelo". By the same token, if He wanted to convey lack of freewill, he would have chosen another word beside "thelo", don't you think?

This man wants to be perfect, but it is vanity when it is for one's self. Hence the following occurs.

No, he doesn't "want to be perfect", that's another misreading of the text.

"The young man said to him, "All these I have observed; what do I still lack?" He asked what more he could do because he had kept the commandments "since birth". He didn't ask what must he do to be perfect, Jesus volunteers this, which is even more apparent in Mark 10 parallel. The Rich Man asks nothing, Jesus just volunteers the information

"And he said to him, "Teacher, all these I have observed from my youth." And Jesus looking upon him loved him, and said to him, "You lack one thing; go, sell what you have, and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me."

As you can clearly see, Jesus is the One pushing this forward. He is telling all of us not to be satisfied with our spiritual journey. Always be striving for perfection, which assumes freewill.

22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.
23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

So it is, that I am not a believer in freewill. I can only choose to sin apart from God despite my best effort. So according to scripture, according to Jesus, if we want to have perfect faith, we must understand why God made us corruptible.

There is absolutely no mention of corruptibility here. You are completely missing the point. The disciples were "exceedingly amazed" because they were still under the impression that rich people were blessed by God and therefore, saved. Jesus is telling them blessings aren't monetary anymore (they never really were), and at the same time that even things that SEEM impossible, like a camel through a needle's eye, can be accomplished by God. Where is "understand why God made us corruptible" in these verses?

To show that He alone makes a man good. The Truth is so high you can't get over it, so low, you can't get under it, so wide you can't get around it, you must go in through the door. So with this in mind, how shall we humble ourselves in all Truth. And what is faith pointing to? Righteousness by God's Grace. Romans 9:16.

And right in the middle of the doorway is the word "thelo" and it's meaning is choose, will, intend, desire, etc. Jesus purposely chose this word (as He does all words in Scripture) for a reason. I hope you will take your own advise and humble yourself to the Truth of what Jesus is saying, here.

 

[dadof10]

It's only unfortunate that "good deeds" get turned into "law and penalty and condemnation" when such are things done by loving spiritual nature to begin with.

OK, against my better judgment, I'm going to respond here. Jesus tells the Rich man that if he "wishes", "wants" "wilts" to be perfect, he should "go...sell...follow". The word "thelo" means "wills, intends, resolves, desires, chooses, prefers". How anyone can say anything else here is amazing. I can understand differences in interpretation, but there is no subjectivity here. Jesus uses the word "choose". This is what you have to deal honestly with.

 

[smaller]

OK, against my better judgment, I'm going to respond here. Jesus tells the Rich man that if he "wishes", "wants" "wilts" to be perfect, he should "go...sell...follow". The word "thelo" means "wills, intends, resolves, desires, chooses, prefers". How anyone can say anything else here is amazing. I can understand differences in interpretation, but there is no subjectivity here. Jesus uses the word "choose". This is what you have to deal honestly with.

Following "law" actions or not resulting in penalties is what it is, a command with a penalty for "if not." Such actions are not of faith, but of law and of fear for ones own hide.

How you and I see "rich man" in the texts will more than likely vary dramatically. Jesus for example used "the rich man" as part of the string of parables in Luke 16 (as well as in other places in the Gospels, as you note), meaning that the "rich man" has a parable construct attached, to understand.

It's not as easy as opening their checkbook or wallet to see if they are monetarily rich, as that is NOT the case to derive the status of "the rich man." To understand all parables and to understand the "identity" of the "rich man" see Mark 4:13, the parable to understand all parables and who the real players are in every parable, Gods Word, man and Satan. If any of these 3 are missing from dissections, the dissections can not compute with Jesus Directives to understand, and are therefore falsely derived.