Faith without works........is Faith.

[smaller]

You have a very confusing doctrine.
Relate all of this to the last type of soil Jesus talks about (Luke 8:15 NASB).
Considering the FACT that a Christian can attain to this type of soil I find your doctrine of no value. What I see is a kind of 'Cain' response to those who have attained to the last type of soil Jesus talks about. It's value being for you alone to assail those you perceive as self-righteous and blind to the sin they really do commit as if it's impossible that someone could have the victory over sin that Jesus talks about in Luke 8:15 NASB.

No man can justify before God in Christ the sin that indwells their flesh, the evil present with them or the tempter who operates in MIND and HEART.

We DIVIDE to CONQUER, not vainly trying to drag our "enemy" into justifications.

The Battle Field is "internal."

Romans 8:
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Shall "freewill" separate us from the Love of God in Christ? Indwelling sin? Evil present? The messenger of Satan? I'll submit to you that every SPOT will be burned off by THE POWER OF LOVE in the transition from DEATH to ETERNAL LIFE.

1 Corinthians 3:15
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

No, none of these things will or can prevail AGAINST CHRIST and his LOVE for all that have called upon Him, by HIS POWER ALONE.

These things of God in Christ are not of us, but OF HIM.

Deuteronomy 4:24
For the Lord thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.

Hebrews 12:29
For our God is a consuming fire.

"But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons."

 

[childeye]

Why does your doctrine condemn the person who has victory over his sin (compared to those who don't)? Do you think it's right to point fingers of judgment at Christians who do what Paul says to do and have learned with great success to put sin to death in their members?

Do you see how this could be perceived as a loaded question with a false premise?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Do you see how this could be perceived as a loaded question with a false premise?

Can we agree that we should leave Christians who appear to be last type of soil Christians alone and leave whether or not they think they are self-rigtheously sinless between them and God? Let's do that instead of taking away the truth that Christians can attain to the last type of soil spoken about in Luke 15:8, okay?

But if you want to somehow tear down what I've been saying, feel free to explain how it can be a loaded question with a false premise. But if your explanation takes away the truth that a Christian can in fact become the last type of soil, well......

 

[Jethro Bodine]

We DIVIDE to CONQUER, not vainly trying to drag our "enemy" into justifications.

Right. We put our enemy to death (Romans 8:13 NASB). Do you not believe this can be done, and some Christian somewhere can become the last type of soil Jesus spoke about? Or is sin always, without exception, going to keep the Christian bound in the second to the last soil until the day he dies? What does your doctrine say?

 

[MarkT]

How can you not see we are free to choose righteousness when we want to in the verses I posted above? Our job is to believe it. That's why he's encouraging us with this truth--so we'll act with confidence on it and say, 'sin, talk to the hand. You can't make me do what you want anymore'.

When you say 'want', are you saying believers want to sin when they sin? I would disagree with that. Temptations to sin are sure to come, but it is not our want to sin.

And when you say 'we', are you including Jesus? Was Jesus free to choose righteousness when he wanted to? Did God give him a choice? No. Jesus came not of his own accord. John 8:42 Likewise the elect are called, not of our own accord. Our will and our desire is to do the will of our Father. Is it not true that it is our desire to please him? Why would we want to sin?

I would not say we are free to choose righteousness when we want. That would make us most unrighteous and it would not make our Father very happy.

 

[childeye]

Can we agree that we should leave Christians who appear to be last type of soil Christians alone and leave whether or not they think they are self-rigtheously sinless between them and God? Let's do that instead of taking away the truth that Christians can attain to the last type of soil spoken about in Luke 15:8, okay?

If my honesty counts for anything, I am all for your first statement, but I don't like the second. Doing the first is not, not doing the second. (note the double negative). I don't like you thinking that way. It's not you in my view.

But if you want to somehow tear down what I've been saying, feel free to explain how it can be a loaded question with a false premise. But if your explanation takes away the truth that a Christian can in fact become the last type of soil, well......

I am not eager to tear down anything you say Jethro, lest I become that thing I preach against. So I may look like a coward being reluctant and all, but really, I just want to be a lamb, baaaaa, and bleed profusely all over any opponent. So our dilemma, is when what you say tears down what I say, and when what I say, tears down what you say. It is only sorrow when I find any of us at odds. Philippians 2:2.

So this is my feather with which I would use to challenge your sword. I've read all of your posts, and all of smaller's posts. Do you think if you two switched sides and you argued against free will and smaller argued for free will, that you would know what you are defending?

 

[Obadiah]

This is starting to get a little too heated and I fear it's going to get people in more trouble if it keeps getting worse. Lets take a break and maybe all of us read each others' posts again from a fresh perspective, and try to approach this with less of the derogatory comments and more of the positive ones. The thread is closed for a while so everyone can think this through. I'll try re-opening it again after some time has been had to calm down a bit.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

When you say 'want', are you saying believers want to sin when they sin?

Sometimes. The author of Hebrews speaks of those of us have been sanctified by the blood of the covenant willfully sinning (Hebrews 10:26,29 NASB).

Since their faith in Christ did not last (as evidenced by their willful sin) they will suffer the wrath of God along with the unbelievers. Their 'faith alone' is not going to save them.

I would not say we are free to choose righteousness when we want. That would make us most unrighteous and it would not make our Father very happy.

How does the Christian choosing to do right because he has a new nature make him unrighteous? He would be doing the very thing God wants us to do. That would be pleasing to him.

 

[smaller]

Right. We put our enemy to death (Romans 8:13 NASB). Do you not believe this can be done, and some Christian somewhere can become the last type of soil Jesus spoke about? Or is sin always, without exception, going to keep the Christian bound in the second to the last soil until the day he dies? What does your doctrine say?

I do not believe that any of us were promised a current state of sinlessness by the Gospel, no. Anyone who claims they are sinless are in fact lying. And those who quest perfect sinlessness in the FLESH are engaged in vain ego inflating religiosity's. Sin indwelling the flesh does NOT change it's stripes or what "IT" does, period. It resists everything of God in Christ, and in particular IT resists open disclosure.

IF Paul had evil present with(in) him [he DID], THEN so do we ALL. Romans 7:21.

Psalm 94:11
The Lord knoweth the thoughts of man, that they are vanity.

We can "divide" ourselves from being enslaved to that working, and to reign over it, regardless of "having sin" or "evil present" in the internal sense. Part of the REIGNING is to engage this matter honestly and truthfully, thereby ASCENDING and DOMINATING over it, not covering it up. God sees us how we really are. I hear many people say that were it not for the threats they think they see to themselves in scripture, they'd do what they "really" want to do. I say, OH REALLY? Do you think God doesn't "REALLY" know what you might "really" want to do? Talk about a bunch of phony actors. God does SEE past this phoniness and does see what people "really" want to do.

The only conclusion that I can make is that I do NOT want to be the captive of evil present with me in any of it's ways or works, and the first step out of this is to stop being a hypocrite about having "evil present."

Genesis 6:5
And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

There is, in short, no place to HIDE from God in Christ. If we are to find and LIVE in HIS LIFE, then we should find same in honestly, IN consideration of being sinners, with, as with Paul, evil present with(in) us. It is not hard to be honest.

God heals the "broken" hearted. These are the believers who have been "divided" or broken from their SINs, even while remaining, truthfully, sinners with evil present with them. The CURE that we have been promised by The Gospel is A NEW BODY, when this BODY of sin is CHANGED out of dishonor, corruption, weakness and death and puts on IMMORTALITY. 1 Cor. 15

In the meantime I doubt very much God in Christ is pleased with or even interested in any given pack of hypocritical liars engaged in coverups. I live with my sights on THE CHANGE and THE PROMISE, and do so from the vantage point of present reality.

Philippians 3:21
Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

 

[smaller]

This working is quite entirely OUT OF OUR HANDS. We, of ourselves, do not have THE POWER to change our VILE BODY. Only God in Christ can do that. NONE of us have yet experienced this, on earth. Though some have had glimpses. 2 Cor. 12:2. This is the HOPE, that we are engaged with.

I might even think that God has been quite entirely patient in waiting for the fruit of HONESTY to spring up in HIS OWN.

James 5:7
Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.

When The Spirit, the messenger of TRUTH, spoke to the 7 churches of Revelation, those who HEAR should hear these parts, clearly:

"Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee"
"I have a few things against thee"
"Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee"
"I have not found thy works perfect before God."
"I will spue thee out of my mouth. Because thou sayest, I [---] have need of nothing"

It is very hard to think that God in Christ does have things against us, but that IS the Truth.

When A Prophet speaks truthfully, they are first LED to see themselves, honestly. Here for example, is the WOE that Isaiah saw about "himself."

Isaiah 6:5
Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts.

Jeremiah (10), same sights:

19 Woe is me for my hurt! my wound is grievous; but I said, Truly this is a grief, and I must bear it.
20 My tabernacle is spoiled, and all my cords are broken:

I know this "grief," well. Honesty has led me to an honest conclusion. I HEAR what these men are saying and I take it, personally.

There is personal insult that comes with the Gospel. Let us not be offended by God in Christ when He sees us, honestly.

1 Corinthians 9:16
For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!

These people of faith did not hold back on us. The Promise of the Gospel is the DESTRUCTION of weakness, corruption, dishonor and finally, the destruction of the power of DEATH, itself.

Isaiah 24:
16 From the uttermost part of the earth have we heard songs, even glory to the righteous. But I said, My leanness, my leanness, woe unto me! the treacherous dealers have dealt treacherously; yea, the treacherous dealers have dealt very treacherously.
17 Fear, and the pit, and the snare, are upon thee, O inhabitant of the earth.

I hear these Words of God. The BAD ones. The Words none of us seem to care for, I hear. I also know the Paths that God in Christ uses and will use to destroy these things. They are paths of Divine Mercy, unmerited and everlasting GRACE, Love so deep and so strong that no thing will tie us down.

It is HIS LOVE that will rip us apart and divide us from LYING DISHONEST HYPOCRISY, dishonor, weakness and corruption. HIS LOVE is the consuming POWER, that will spew FIRE and damnation on these things.

Our hearts will be flayed open like a RIPE BANANA and EVERYTHING within, will be revealed. Every last thought will be LAID BARE and OPENLY EXPOSED.

I am so ready.

Every last one of you FEAR to hear His Glorious Words. Here is an example:

Matthew 7:23
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

None of us consider that WE ALL work iniquity. Why is it then, that we RUN and HIDE from His Words?

Galatians 3:22
But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

I EXPECT a FINAL DIVISION from that working in the VILE BODY. And in the meantime, I know I have NOTHING to glory of, just as Paul SAID of himself. ALL of our righteousness IS AS filthy RAGS. The Prophet SPEAKS TRUTH! I'll take no glory in any filthy rag righteousness, first of all, my own.

Isaiah 64:6
But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthyrags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

 

[smaller]

When Peter was in a TRANCE, the SPIRIT was TRYING to get Peter to recognize his CONDITION:

Acts 10:
10 And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance,
11 And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending upon him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth:
12 Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.
13 And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.
14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.

"Peter doubted in himself what this vision which he had seen should mean"

There is NO uncertainty or doubt. This, below, IS our current condition. Paul met this exact same matter HEAD ON:

Romans 9:
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us,

God is WILLING to show HIS WRATH and to make HIS POWER KNOWN. Are WE WILLING to accept it?

Vessels of HONOR will have HIS MERCY pouring out of their own veins. They will SHARE this, HIS BREAD OF LIFE that we have been given to eat.

Or will we continue to try so utterly, vainly, to justify ourselves in His Sights? There is no question to me, what direction is to be taken. The need for HIS MERCY is pre-built, into US.

Matthew 5:7
Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.

 

[Obadiah]

ToS 2.6: "Please keep posts down to a respectable length"

Kindly adhere to this section of the Terms of Service. There is the reason our system has a character limit and why even real life debates have a time limit. Respect the character limits and condense your responses down to fit within that. Thank you.

 

[MarkT]

Sometimes. The author of Hebrews speaks of those of us have been sanctified by the blood of the covenant willfully sinning (Hebrews 10:26,29 NASB).

I believe Paul is talking about X Christians who sin wilfully, for he says, 'after receiving the knowledge of truth', and again in Heb. 6, 'those who have once been enlightened,' which means the same thing, if after being enlightened, they spurn the Son of God, then there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins.
'How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace'? Heb. 10:29

I'm thinking of those men who no longer believe in the Son of God, who know they are doing things which deserve death; I would call their sins deliberate. They were once forgiven and sanctified by the blood of Christ; but then they fell into unbelief, so the blood of Christ is no longer working in them.

However Christians do not want to sin; they hate sin.

Since their faith in Christ did not last (as evidenced by their willful sin) they will suffer the wrath of God along with the unbelievers. Their 'faith alone' is not going to save them.

Again these men lost their saving faith, as you say, so it makes no sense to speak of their faith; they have no faith. So yes, they will suffer the wrath of God with those who never believed.

How does the Christian choosing to do right because he has a new nature make him unrighteous? He would be doing the very thing God wants us to do. That would be pleasing to him.

I would not say we are free to choose righteousness when we want. That would make us most unrighteous and it would not make our Father very happy.

God didn't give us choices. He gave us a new nature to serve him always, not whenever we want.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I believe Paul is talking about X Christians who sin wilfully, for he says, 'after receiving the knowledge of truth', and again in Heb. 6, 'those who have once been enlightened,' which means the same thing, if after being enlightened, they spurn the Son of God, then there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins.
'How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace'? Heb. 10:29

I'm thinking of those men who no longer believe in the Son of God, who know they are doing things which deserve death; I would call their sins deliberate. They were once forgiven and sanctified by the blood of Christ; but then they fell into unbelief, so the blood of Christ is no longer working in them.

I believe this too. So what is your argument with me? They once believed, now they don't and they are lost.

 

[dadof10]

dad of10, do you remember that I said I love you? I sincerely meant that. And I said it because I was greatly pleased at the work you had put forth in seeking what thelo means. I don't agree with how you have changed it into choice, but still, I admire your determination. I was not accusing you of being determined.

*Sigh*...Really? I have given you every definition of the word "thelo" available. Not only that, I have given you definitions of two other similar (root?) words for comparison. The word means "want to", "wish to", "thou wilt" (you will), or "you would". It conveys CHOICE. Here it is again, from Thayer's:

1. to will, have in mind, intend
   
   
   1. to be resolved or determined, to purpose
      
      
   2. to desire, to wish
      
      
   3. to love
      
      1. to like to do a thing, be fond of doing
         
   4. to take delight in, have pleasure

I'm not posting this again to badger you, Childeye, but to further the conversation. I'll ask my question for the third time. Don't you think if Jesus wanted to convey something OTHER THAN free will choice, He would have chosen a different word?

 

[dadof10]

You're misunderstanding me. I still am saying we don't choose (have free will) in the moral purview because we don't choose freely. I believe we have wills that choose according to the desires within us. I believe the desires within us are dependent on the spiritual content of the soul. I believe the spiritual content of the soul is dependent upon one's image of God/god.

What you are describing is confusing. You seem to be saying that a person (you, possibly?) who has a proper "image of God/god" doesn't EVER commit actual sin. Your view also implies that we NEVER go against the "desires" within us based on this "image", either for good or ill. If a person has a flawed "image", he can never please God, and by the same token, if he has a proper "image", he can never sin.

Okay, let me try this again. Sin means a direction in separation from God. We're born in sin, and that means, because we have a false image of god in our soul, we are separated from God through a corrupt image of Him. This scripture shows that a corrupt image of god corrupts the person. Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female, Deuteronomy 4:16.

But this below, is the actual corrupt image of god that I believe was placed in mankind's soul by Satan.
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
Genesis 3:4-5.

"Lest ye corrupt YOURSELVES..." Again, free will. This says nothing about Satan "placing" anything in our souls, neither does the verse in Genesis. You are making my point for me, over and over.

This false image of god in the scripture above is a liar, a self serving tyrant, who keeps those beneath Him subjugated, by not allowing them what would make them His equal, through fear of death.

This is an interesting quote. It assumes (I may be misreading you) that a proper "image of God" includes within it a belief that "they" could be "His equal", and to believe otherwise is a "false image of God". This can't be what you mean here.

It is this false image of god that begets sin in both heaven and earth. This image comes out of a vanity, or the presumption of who God is, imagined by the lesser mind.
So that is why it is no one's sin. Corruption began by finding fault where there is no fault. That is what vanity does. And vanity is unavoidable for the created being that doesn't know God, which is why it began in Satan the highest Angel. Therefore I will not say sin is to be blamed on anyone, or that any person is responsible for their sin. To do so, is to believe that the false image is true.

So, we are born with this "false image" (original sin?). How do we overcome it and "know God" if we have no free will? Are you simply describing a repackaged "U" and "I" of Calvinism?

 

[dadof10]

Jesus very much taught that man and the tempter (or those of his family/kingdom) abide in the same place. Mark 4:15, Matt. 13:19, Luke 8:12, Luke 8:30, and every scripture where devils were cast out, too many to list.

Paul taught identically in 2 Cor. 12:7, Romans 11:8, 2 Cor. 4:4, 2 Cor. 3:14 as did John, 1 John 3:8 for brief examples. It's one of the more glaringly obvious showings of the scriptures.



The will of the person and the will of the tempter are not the same wills, nor does the will of man control the will of the tempter, AND even less, does such blindness on the part of christians make the tempter/indwelling sin/evil present within us legal, obedient, under Grace or SAVED BY WORKS. None of these things can happen, nor is it even possible.

When believers are SAVED, we come into CONTENTION with this internal matter and internal problem to which we were not prior aware. Some were never aware of it to begin with, before or after salvation, because they don't hear THE WORD in this regards, and probably can't. Eph. 2:2, Romans 11:32

The tables are (supposedly) turned in our behalves to recognize our prior pawnship to that working entity. That does NOT mean however that the contention of THAT OTHER WILL ever leaves the flesh, which is also "their" habitation.

Mat 6:13, Luke 13:16, Acts 26:18, Heb 2:14-15, Rev 12:10, 2 Tim 4:18

Whenever any believer thinks they are "not like other men" they have been made into a modern day Pharisee. Luke 18:11, and they are made so EXACTLY by spiritual blindness caused by the TEMPTER, the spirit of slumber/stupor that ARRIVES on cue where the Word is sown, in the HEART.

Which all points to the bottom line, that we are saved by faith in Christ and solely by His Abilities to Save. All our works are still "like" filthy rags, even after salvation.

Isaiah 64:6
But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

And we are so, because of the above facts. I would go even further to say that any sect that does not point their "judgment" to the real adverse powers that are not man, but that all mankind in this present world suffers under, are spiritually blind, and they are even more spiritually blind when they try to "justify" the entirety of themselves, by their works, and are in fact blinded Pharisees, claiming as the Pharisee did, that they are NOT LIKE other men. Yes, unfortunately but TRUTHFULLY, we are all exactly LIKE other men when it comes to "having sin" as a present tense condition and occupation within the flesh, which same is OF THE DEVIL. 1 John 3:8.

These facts will be resisted until THE END of the devil's time, and will be resisted "in the church(s)" because this working is a present day fact in all of them. The works of Satan were addressed to all 7 of the churches of Revelation. It is unlikely "they heard" either.

Ephesians 2:
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Let me try this again. Here is what I wanted you to elaborate on:

"Could you please elaborate? Jesus says TO the Rich man "If thou wilt be perfect...", if you will to be perfect. The Rich man is doing the choosing, not some "tempter" inside, not some "thorn in the flesh". The man himself."

Jesus wasn't talking to any "tempter" inside the man, even though He regularly DID talk to demons. He tells the man that "if he WILLS TO BE PERFECT", which assumes it's possible to "WILL to be perfect". Of course, perfection can only come by pure grace, but Jesus says very clearly that the willing is up to us. He gives us the power to reject Grace, which is what the Rich man did.

 

[smaller]

Let me try this again. Here is what I wanted you to elaborate on:

"Could you please elaborate? Jesus says TO the Rich man "If thou wilt be perfect...", if you will to be perfect. The Rich man is doing the choosing, not some "tempter" inside, not some "thorn in the flesh". The man himself."

The "identity" of the "rich man" is parabolic in nature, and is to be understood that way. That was my initial observation, taken from the PARABLE delivered in this matter of the "unidentified rich man" in Luke 16. In order to understand "parables" we turn to Mark 4, for which the dissections and understandings of every parable are delivered by Jesus. And in that parable, we can see that there are 3 major components, Gods Word(s), man and the devil(s.)

The "rich man" is actually the "owner" of the flesh of all people. The RULER of his, this temporal passing domain of the flesh. See 2 Cor. 4:4 to see this ruler in actions within his blinded SLAVES.

But since you fly under the notion of 'freewill' you will NOT be able to see this matter, and instead, have been falsely led to see 'ONLY MAN's will" and not the will of the slave master, from who's POWER over "our minds" we have been turned from. Acts 26:18.

Those who engage in trying to make the tempter and his internal temptations "obey" under the flag of "freewill" are wasting their time. The tempter in NO ONE will ever be faithfully obedient, saved, under Grace, legally obedient or the recipient of Divine Mercy. It will not happen, guaranteed.

Jesus wasn't talking to any "tempter" inside the man,

And I would beg to differ on that subject. There are too many encounters with these entities "in man" to even begin to site them but I would instantly point to Matt. 16:23, Mark 8:33, Luke 4:8, Luke 22:3 and John 13:27 for this transpiring in DISCIPLES first and foremost.

even though He regularly DID talk to demons.

Yes, and did "deal" with "them" in MAN, which is their place of habitation. Mark 5:9, Luke 11:24.

He tells the man that "if he WILLS TO BE PERFECT", which assumes it's possible to "WILL to be perfect". Of course, perfection can only come by pure grace, but Jesus says very clearly that the willing is up to us. He gives us the power to reject Grace, which is what the Rich man did.

See it how you will. I do not view any "man" as a man alone. We are all subject to internal temptations, which are in fact of the tempter and that places another working and worker within "man" to do so, just as Jesus taught us all. Mark 4:15 and all the other 'seed' parables.

And YES, this is also the exact reason we are justified by faith alone, and can not be justified of ourselves, because there is no such theological animal as "just me." The is man and there is the operator of temptations IN man, which is the tempter, the DEVIL. Romans 7:21, 2 Cor. 12:7, Gal. 4:14, Romans 9:17-23, 2 Tim. 2:20-21, 1 Tim. 1:15, 1 John 3:8, 1 John 1:8, Eph. 6:11-13, etc etc.

 

[childeye]

*Sigh*...Really? I have given you every definition of the word "thelo" available. Not only that, I have given you definitions of two other similar (root?) words for comparison. The word means "want to", "wish to", "thou wilt" (you will), or "you would". It conveys CHOICE. Here it is again, from Thayer's:

1. to will, have in mind, intend
   1. to be resolved or determined, to purpose
      
      
   2. to desire, to wish
      
      
   3. to love
      1. to like to do a thing, be fond of doing
   4. to take delight in, have pleasure

I'm not posting this again to badger you, Childeye, but to further the conversation. I'll ask my question for the third time. Don't you think if Jesus wanted to convey something OTHER THAN free will choice, He would have chosen a different word?

The thing is your question contains a premise that is unsubstantiated. I don't even think Jesus was trying to convey a free will choice to begin with, so it's a loaded question to ask me if I think Jesus would have chosen a different word if he wanted to convey something other than a freewill choice.

It seems that anytime you see a choice happening, you automatically assume it is freely made. Therefore you say that thelo conveys 'choice' while your question contains "convey something OTHER THAN free will choice". I think we should agree that making a choice is a mental deliberation. That is not the same as a 'desire', which is a feeling or emotion that one has within. Therefore, to me, the scripture is properly translated as "want to", not choose to.

 

[childeye]

What you are describing is confusing. You seem to be saying that a person (you, possibly?) who has a proper "image of God/god" doesn't EVER commit actual sin. Your view also implies that we NEVER go against the "desires" within us based on this "image", either for good or ill. If a person has a flawed "image", he can never please God, and by the same token, if he has a proper "image", he can never sin.

This is pretty close to what I believe with one exception in your application. The change that happens to a person happens in degrees. A person will still sin while they are being transformed by the True Image of God, but that sin will decrease even as their mind is being renewed. This means that the desires of the flesh are still present, but they become more and more irrelevant as we become transformed into Christ. There are no ill desires in Christ.

"Lest ye corrupt YOURSELVES..." Again, free will. This says nothing about Satan "placing" anything in our souls, neither does the verse in Genesis. You are making my point for me, over and over.

The scripture says, that believing in a false image of god, does corrupt a person, that was my point. So that it can be established that a True and Pure Image of God, is what keeps the heart, mind and soul pure. The fact that you don't even see the false image presented by Satan in Genesis 3:4-5, is proof of his cunning subterfuge.

This is an interesting quote. It assumes (I may be misreading you) that a proper "image of God" includes within it a belief that "they" could be "His equal", and to believe otherwise is a "false image of God". This can't be what you mean here.

This is what I mean by being His equal.
Genesis 1:27
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Matthew 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
John 5:18
Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
Philippians 2:5-7.
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

So, we are born with this "false image" (original sin?). How do we overcome it and "know God" if we have no free will? Are you simply describing a repackaged "U" and "I" of Calvinism?

I believe we are born in sin, that is, we inherit from our family lines certain sinful tendencies. But we are also born knowing God since we experience Love. As for the false image of god, I don't think we are born with it. It seems more plausible to me that we learn this false image through this worldly existence. Hence I use 2 Corinthians 4:4, to show that scripture identifies a "god of this world", that is in opposition to the True Image that comes as Jesus.

How do we overcome it and "know God" if we have no free will?

By grace, through faith in the Gospel of Christ is how we receive the True Image of God. The Christ is the antithesis of the image sown by Satan. Freewill has nothing to do with it. The Christ is a quickening Spirit, which means he quickens that which is already there, yet has been corrupted. Hence the term 'corruption', is an important word when contemplating our spiritual condition. I personally believe that we already do know God, even because we know Love/Empathy. That Love becomes perverted through belief in a false image of god.

Is this Grace that comes through Christ irresistible? It is for me, but that's because I see it as such. For I would definitely rather believe that God is a person that would sacrifice Himself to save me, than believe He is a person who would sacrifice me, to save Himself. It's like comparing Light to dark. I know you see a choice/option here. That does not mean I can freely choose/decide, to believe Jesus is a foolish image of god.

Is this an unconditional election? I'm not sure what Calvinists mean by that.