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Faith without works?

I think we're forgetting the context that most of these scriptures are directed at people that already believe...and were converted before the religion was widespread.

I also want to know how people before Christ are saved...or those who didn't have any exposure until much much later. Can they have works and faith?
 
I think we're forgetting the context that most of these scriptures are directed at people that already believe...and were converted before the religion was widespread.

I also want to know how people before Christ are saved...or those who didn't have any exposure until much much later. Can they have works and faith?
Do you mean before Christ came to the earth? They were saved then by a faith in Christ looking forward, that He would come. Sure they had works also, but not many people from what I understand, because the indwelling of the Holy Spirit had not been given to all yet. (No wonder they used to blame the sins on the parents for not bringing the kids up right!)
 
Deeds like some that I mentioned in the paragraph above does not show how we are different because unbeliever's do these things too.
I do not disagree with anything in the above post, except the last sentence quoted above.

"Good deeds", if done for the wrong reasons (self glorification)are viewed differently by God. He knows the heart. we don't always. Even the exact same outwardly appearing good "deed" can be viewed as an egregious deed by God if done for the wrong reasons.

Take the example given in Luke 18:

14 I tell you, this man [tax collector] went down to his house justified, rather than the other[Pharisee]. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.”
 
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So does it require a work of the Holy Spirit in the heart to believe in Jesus?
Yes.

It depends on a work of the Holy Spirit to believe in Jesus. Faith comes by hearing the testimony about Jesus through the Holy Spirit. The Spirit gives the knowledge of the truth filled with the power of faith that then enables one to believe (place their trust) in Christ and be saved.



Or is the Holy Spirit after the fact?
The indwelling Holy Spirit is after the fact of having believed.


When I believed the word of God, I made a commitment to Jesus, and then I was filled with the Holy Spirit.
And that is how the Bible says it happens. But it was still the Holy Spirit leading us to, and convincing us of the truth about Jesus.

This is what I was getting at in another thread. It's entirely possible to have the Holy Spirit active in a person's life, yet only in an evangelistic role, not in salvation. But it seems a lot of people take false comfort in merely being called by the Spirit, thinking that any activity of the Spirit in their lives must mean they are saved. They don't resist what the Holy Spirit is telling them. They simply don't act on what He has told them about the Christ.

And, it would be equally deceiving to start out in Christ in faith and then shrink back into this state of not resisting the truth, but not obeying it either, thinking since you've had a genuine experience with God through the Holy Spirit in the past that you're good to go to the end, even though your behavior is testifying against you that you've stopped trusting in the blood of Christ. And Christ gives us examples and reasons for that happening--because one's faith was not deeply rooted, or got choked out completely by the worries and pleasures of this world--Luke 8:13-14. This is why I consider faith to be matter of whether or not it is strong enough to endure to the end, not so much if it's a genuine faith to begin.


What role does the Holy Spirit have in receiving Christ?
I think that's a good question.
I think the Holy Spirit is more in keeping us in Christ rather than leading us to Christ.
The Holy Spirit goes out into the world and testifies about Jesus:

"6 ...it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. 9 We accept human testimony, but God’s testimony is greater because it is the testimony of God, which he has given about his Son.10 Whoever believes in the Son of God accepts this testimony.Whoever does not believe God has made him out to be a liar,because they have not believed the testimony God has given about his Son." (1 John 5:6,9-10 NIV)

This is how God makes the whole world accountable. There is no regenerative power in the voice of the Holy Spirit in regard to salvation. If that were true, everyone who hears the testimony of God would be saved, but we see John speaking of those who hear the bonafide message of the gospel filled with faith by the Holy Spirit but who then reject it.
 
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What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

James 2:14 (KJV)

I have heard a lot recently about faith in Christ is what saves us. In Sunday school we had a whole lesson on "saved by grace" and here on the forum there is definitely a lot of discussion about faith and about works. So what about faith requiring works to be saved? I know this is a fairly common topic and verse but what exactly are the works that faith in Christ requires?


Works = The effort that obedience requires.

7 By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith. Hebrews 11:7

The effort or works that was required of Noah was to build the Ark.

Noah received faith when God spoke to him.

Faith comes by hearing.

Faiths comes by hearing God.

By obeying what God told him, Noah's faith was an active living faith that produced a required result through the effort of his obedience.

A living faith is one that obeys.

Obedience is the standard of Faith.

Obedience is the standard of righteousness.

Obedience is the standard of love.


JLB
 
I've been holding off on this.
I did not want to create a disturbance, but, here goes.
I don't have all the answers, I would like a better explanation.

John 6 says in verse 63 that the words Jesus has spoken is The Spirit and life.
Otherwise in the chapter, Jesus says in a couple of places that only the Father draws people to Jesus.
I can see how you would think that this is the Holy Spirit, but we know the Holy Spirit had yet to be given to us.
If it is the Father that draws us to Jesus, then the Holy Spirit must have a different role, if we do believe the three make up the Godhead.
It is faith in God that draws us to Jesus.

So does it require a work of the Holy Spirit in the heart to believe in Jesus?
Or is the Holy Spirit after the fact?
When I believed the word of God, I made a commitment to Jesus, and then I was filled with the Holy Spirit.

What role does the Holy Spirit have in receiving Christ?
I think that's a good question.
I think the Holy Spirit is more in keeping us in Christ rather than leading us to Christ.

38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water." 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified. John 7:38-39

The Holy Spirit indwelling in and influencing a believers life is the evidence, that person believes.


As many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are the sons of God.



JLB
 
I do not disagree with anything in the above post, except the last sentence quoted above.

"Good deeds", if done for the wrong reasons (self glorification)are viewed differently by God. He knows the heart. we don't always. Even the exact same outwardly appearing good "deed" can be viewed as an egregious deed by God if done for the wrong reasons.

Take the example given in Luke 18:

14 I tell you, this man [tax collector] went down to his house justified, rather than the other[Pharisee]. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.”

I think this could apply to the amputee healing thread also. Do we want to heal an amputee so that we have a good testimony to give others? (See what I can do?...)
Same thing.
 
I think this could apply to the amputee healing thread also. Do we want to heal an amputee so that we have a good testimony to give others? (See what I can do?...)
Same thing.
I'm not familiar with that particular thread. But what about this example:

Let's just say there was a master that taught his dog to do cool tricks. Let's say one of the tricks was to roll over and play dead.
2989.jpg


Is this dog doing the trick because he truly, in his heart, loves his Master and looks to his Master, well…, as his Lord no matter what the circumstances? Or rather, is he doing the tricks only for his self-gratifying treat afterwards? Stop giving the treat and the dog returns to his previous ways. Basically because he never really had the true emotion of loving his Master to begin with. The dog kind-of looks like he loves his Master to people looking on, but not really.

Rather, he liked the treat so much, he'd pretty much do anything (within reason) to get the treat. It’s all about treats (bacon, bacon, bacon)!

Then when he finds out the reward he truly desired was a fleeting reward of self-gratification, he just returns to his natural self and just kind-of looks stupidly toward his Master when He asks for a trick to be performed:). Ever seen dog owners in a dog show try to hide the fact they are giving out treats? I suppose it makes the dog look less obedient and pure breed for the judges to know that he’s really just after the treat. But who are they fooling? We know (or we should) why the dog is really doing these tricks.

2 Peter 2:22 What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.”

One of the tools I use to read and understand Scripture’s message better is to read a verse or passage several times over and over. I’ll pick-out a word, or two or three, within the passage and emphasize it. Kind-of like someone would in verbal speech. The emphasis doesn’t always necessarily come through with the written words. Picking each word and pausing for emphasis, or raising the volume for the word, in my mind. Take Matt 7:21-23 for example.

Matt 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

Emphasize the “we” in this passage (over and above) the other words. I think you get the message better. These types of people, rather than giving the Lord the credit, want the credit for their “mighty works” all to themselves. Always did. They never were doing “mighty works” to show the power of their Lord. They were their own lord.

God DOES heal amputees. He heals them of their sin problem! Some of the most powerful Christ shining Christians that I know, have physical wounds (even some suffering to their death) yet use their situations to glorify Christ through their troubles.

Now that's FAITH WITHOUT WORKS (OP)!
 
Humm,?
James 2:19
You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder!
Demons do not 'believe in' God. They know he exists, better than you and I do. But they do not believe in God. They have not placed their trust in him.

There is a 'faith'--a knowledge about the truth--that does not lead to trusting in God for salvation. Everybody who has heard the testimony of the Holy Spirit, and knows the gospel is true because of that testimony, but who then rejects it by not acting on it, has (or had) a 'faith' that can not save them.

It requires a work of the Holy Spirit to lead someone to trust in Jesus Christ. That's what makes salvation the gracious gift of God that it is. For without the Holy Spirit no man would place his trust in that which he can't know is true except by the Holy Spirit convicting him it's true.
 
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I'm not familiar with that particular thread. But what about this example:

Let's just say there was a master that taught his dog to do cool tricks. Let's say one of the tricks was to roll over and play dead.
2989.jpg


Is this dog doing the trick because he truly, in his heart, loves his Master and looks to his Master, well…, as his Lord no matter what the circumstances? Or rather, is he doing the tricks only for his self-gratifying treat afterwards? Stop giving the treat and the dog returns to his previous ways. Basically because he never really had the true emotion of loving his Master to begin with. The dog kind-of looks like he loves his Master to people looking on, but not really.

Rather, he liked the treat so much, he'd pretty much do anything (within reason) to get the treat. It’s all about treats (bacon, bacon, bacon)!

Then when he finds out the reward he truly desired was a fleeting reward of self-gratification, he just returns to his natural self and just kind-of looks stupidly toward his Master when He asks for a trick to be performed:). Ever seen dog owners in a dog show try to hide the fact they are giving out treats? I suppose it makes the dog look less obedient and pure breed for the judges to know that he’s really just after the treat. But who are they fooling? We know (or we should) why the dog is really doing these tricks.

2 Peter 2:22 What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.”

One of the tools I use to read and understand Scripture’s message better is to read a verse or passage several times over and over. I’ll pick-out a word, or two or three, within the passage and emphasize it. Kind-of like someone would in verbal speech. The emphasis doesn’t always necessarily come through with the written words. Picking each word and pausing for emphasis, or raising the volume for the word, in my mind. Take Matt 7:21-23 for example.

Matt 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

Emphasize the “we” in this passage (over and above) the other words. I think you get the message better. These types of people, rather than giving the Lord the credit, want the credit for their “mighty works” all to themselves. Always did. They never were doing “mighty works” to show the power of their Lord. They were their own lord.

God DOES heal amputees. He heals them of their sin problem! Some of the most powerful Christ shining Christians that I know, have physical wounds (even some suffering to their death) yet use their situations to glorify Christ through their troubles.

Now that's FAITH WITHOUT WORKS (OP)!

Nah, my dog Thor is just sleeping in the driveway, he wasn't bucking for a treat. I can walk him without a leash or treats and he stays right beside me even with people walking by. I can't explain it. He's the most well behaved dog I have ever had. He has been trained by me and even went to obedience class when he was young, but he doesn't have to have a treat to do things. :)
 
A lot of great post here. One question that I am trying to figure out is, what are the works that faith in Christ requires that are different from the works that are common among most people whether they are a believer or not? I figure there has to be something because we know that no amount of works is sufficient to be saved because we all fall short. I used the term "deeds" earlier to describe a type of work that is common among most people. So are there certain works that you would most likely only see in a Christian and is that what manifest our faith?
 
One question that I am trying to figure out is, what are the works that faith in Christ requires that are different from the works that are common among most people whether they are a believer or not?

So are there certain works that you would most likely only see in a Christian and is that what manifest our faith?
Christian love is impartial:

27 “But to you who are listening I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. 29 If someone slaps you on one cheek, turn to them the other also. If someone takes your coat, do not withhold your shirt from them. 30 Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. 31 Do to others as you would have them do to you.

32 “If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you?Even sinners love those who love them. 33 And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do that. 34 And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, expecting to be repaid in full. 35 But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. 36 Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful." (Luke 6: NIV)


The works of the Christian are not conditioned on whether you are a friend or a foe, or whether you deserve to be loved or not. The bottom line is, unbelievers do not have the faith to suffer loss. They can only give when it costs them little or nothing, or they have some expectation of getting paid back in some way.

I personally don't believe unbelievers have the fruit of the Spirit. They can fake it in isolated cases, and only in regard to somebody or something that is not offensive to them. And they definitely do not love the child of God:

"...everyone who loves the father (IOW, is a Christian) loves his child as well." (1 John 5:1 NIV)

Anyone who treats the children of God like enemies. They can not love the children of God. Christians are the ones who love the church.
 
Demons do not 'believe in' God. They know he exists, better than you and I do. But they do not believe in God. They have not placed their trust in him. There is a 'faith'--a knowledge about the truth--that does not lead to trusting in God for salvation.
I agree. I understand that’s exactly the point James is making by his use of the demon’s so called ‘belief’ example in James 2:19. That’s why I mentioned it in this OP thread about ‘faith’ and James 2:14. Not only can some demons have this head knowledge (true facts), yet still not put their trust IN Him but some people can also have this type of ‘faith’/’belief’.

That is how the demons “believe”. That’s the type of “faith” they have. They know it’s a true fact, but yet they really don’t “believe in” Him (trust in God for their salvation). Like the ‘faith” of the ‘Someone’ in the other bad example given right there alongside it in James 2. The “someone” that has merely a “said faith”, not a “belief in” faith.

14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?

The implied answer is clearly = NO! i.e. they never believed ‘in Him’ and thus were never saved to begin with, much less lost a ‘saving’ faith later. You cannot lose something you never had in the first place, right?

The good examples of ‘faith’ that James gives is: 1) “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God”

So we could go look at that Scriptures’ record of the type(s) of “faith” or “belief” that Abraham had to answer the OP question. Or 2) Rahab was the other example of the type of ‘faith’ that is evidently an indication of someone’s salvation state. But I do not think James is giving some formula/test to determine whether another person truly is saved or not. Maybe internally, someone could evaluate whether they have the type of ‘fatih’ that Abraham and/or Rahab had. But it’s next to impossible for someone else to know the inner degree to which a person truly believes in Him.
It requires a work of the Holy Spirit to lead someone to trust in Jesus Christ. That's what makes salvation the gracious gift of God that it is. For without the Holy Spirit no man would place his trust in that which he can't know is true except by the Holy Spirit convicting him it's true.
I agree.

Puff! That is T in the TULIP in a nutshell. [Total depravity (also called absolute inability, radical corruption, or total corruption) is the teaching that, as a consequence of the Fall of Man, every person born into the world is enslaved to the service of sin and, apart from the efficacious or prevenient grace of God [i.e. the Holy Spirit], is utterly unable to choose to follow God, refrain from evil, or accept the gift of salvation as it is offered.]

Just a quick little tangent here as I admit it's slightly off topic but also related since we are on the subject of what the Holy Spirit is capable of:Why then, not give due credit where credit is due (to the Holy Spirit, that is) and believe these Scriptures for the proof texts of the P part of TULIP:)
2 Corinthians 1:22 and [God] who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

“seal” = 4972 /sphragízō ("to seal") signifies ownership and the full security carried by the backing (full authority) of the owner. "Sealing" in the ancient world served as a "legal signature" which guaranteed the promise (contents) of what was sealed.
http://biblehub.com/greek/4972.htm

Ephesians 1:13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,

Ephesians 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

John 10:28 God [i.e. including the Holy Spirit] give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.

Etc.
For without the Holy Spirit no man would place his trust in that which he can't know is true except by the Holy Spirit convicting him it's true.

Why limit the Holy Spirit to a onetime conviction or testimony or urging? Why not let the Holy Spirit also be a “seal” that the Scriptures clearly speak of as well?

Why not say: For without the Holy Spirit no man would place keep his trust in that which he can't know is true except by the Holy Spirit convicting sealing him.

And what’s more, you don’t even have to give up on man’s will in the process (if you have the right definition of “will”, that is). For we all know that neither man nor God has the ability to choose anything that’s outside his own nature. You just said as much, about an un-gifted man never being able to choose to “believe in Him”. They might come upon the head knowledge, but the actual ‘belief in Him’, nah. It’s against man’s nature.

Now choosing to hear the testimony and/or even whether to squash it (or not), is a choice man has, sure. But as you say, to “believe in Him” is a gift.
So is His seal a gift! So is Eternal Life!
 
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A lot of great post here. One question that I am trying to figure out is, what are the works that faith in Christ requires that are different from the works that are common among most people whether they are a believer or not? I figure there has to be something because we know that no amount of works is sufficient to be saved because we all fall short. I used the term "deeds" earlier to describe a type of work that is common among most people. So are there certain works that you would most likely only see in a Christian and is that what manifest our faith?


The works of faith.

The action of obedience to what God says to you.

Faith comes by hearing God.

Faith is legitimate by the action of obedience to the word that God speaks.


JLB
 
chessman: But it’s next to impossible for someone else to know the inner degree to which a person truly believes in Him.

This is almost a 'given'. How could one possibly see into anothers heart? No way buddy. Can't do it...or could we?!

Matthew 7:16-20
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them./(KJV)

:eek:chin

Interesting! What if...What if this were true?! Ok, soo, what are we talking about here? Back to their works for the most part, I believe. Hmm.

Now I do not speak of do they give lots to charities and so forth. What should they be doing, as Christians? Hmm.

Luke 10:9
9 And heal the sick that are therein, and say unto them, The kingdom of God is come nigh unto you./(KJV)

Perhaps healing the sick, but mostly (I believe), declaring that the kingdom of God is come unto them./(KJV)

How many people do you hear saying this? I do not hear many, if any. The kingdom of God has come "nigh" unto you. Huh.

Nigh (G1448)
ἐγγίζω
eggizō
eng-id'-zo
From G1451; to make near, that is, (reflexively) approach: - approach, be at hand, come (draw) near, be (come, draw) nigh./(E-sword)

The kingdom has just approached them? The kingdom is at hand, and just come near them. Interesting. How can this be? Ohhh. We walk in Christ. The kingdom is within us. The kingdom is full of light and power and wisdom and understanding, The kingdom has eyes. Whoever has eyes let them see.

So let us walk, and obey, and see, and have faith. There is one body of Christ. Perhaps he who you stand in front of is in a different place in his walk...but I believe that you can see if you look. Shake off that world and be led of the Spirit. Ask the Spirit to let you see.
Why couldn't/wouldn't He?

Amen?
 
Now I do not speak of do they give lots to charities and so forth. What should they be doing, as Christians?

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control." (Galatians 5:22-23 NIV)

Be this, then you'll do all the other stuff. This is what it means to have deeds motivated by the Spirit, not the flesh.

The fruit of the Spirit is what signals me that I'm dealing with another brother/sister. But when I see jealousy, and envy, and hatred, and discord, etc., I have no choice but to first consider that person an unbeliever until I see evidence to the contrary.
 
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control." (Galatians 5:22-23 NIV)

Be this, then you'll do all the other stuff. This is what it means to have deeds motivated by the Spirit, not the flesh.
The fruit of the Spirit is what signals me that I'm dealing with another brother/sister. But when I see jealousy, and envy, and hatred, and discord, etc., I have no choice but to first consider that person an unbeliever until I see evidence to the contrary.

Good morning. :)

I'll buy that. Fruits. Fruits of the Spirit. They either shine or they don't.
 
14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?

The implied answer is clearly = NO! i.e. they never believed ‘in Him’ and thus were never saved to begin with, much less lost a ‘saving’ faith later.
Are you trying to assert that since demons never believed then those who have the 'faith' of demons also never believed too? If so, is that a fair and logical assumption to make? Especially when you consider the demons did obey and submit to God at one time.


You cannot lose something you never had in the first place, right?
"By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:2 NIV)

I see Paul warning us not to lose the faith that saved us. So, people who had a genuine faith really can lose it and make all prior faith ineffectual toward salvation.


Why limit the Holy Spirit to a onetime conviction or testimony or urging?
I'm not. Justification is the one-time thing.

And it is the continuing power, and conviction, and urging of the Holy Spirit through which we keep on believing in Christ's blood and stay under it's justifying power.



Why not let the Holy Spirit also be a “seal” that the Scriptures clearly speak of as well?
Keep trusting in the blood of Christ for justification through the forgiveness of sins (as opposed to working for that justification) and you'll stay sealed with God's seal of ownership, the Holy Spirit. That Holy Spirit then serving as the guarantee of that which our faith has laid hold of.

Believing in Christ is how you got sealed. Believing in Christ is how you'll stay sealed. Stop believing in the forgiveness of God and you will have believed in vain up to that point. Your previous trusting in the blood will be null and void.


Now choosing to hear the testimony and/or even whether to squash it (or not), is a choice man has, sure. But as you say, to “believe in Him” is a gift.
So is His seal a gift! So is Eternal Life!
And Paul warns us not to abandon this gracious gift of faith.

Just as we had a choice to accept or refuse it when we heard the gospel and were justified, so we still have the choice to refuse or accept it now. If that were not true, the Bible would not warn us to be sure to continue in the faith we surely have.
 
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