Bible Study Faith without works

[chessman]

This is a common mistake I hear from many....they believe it was those that were not born-again

Where did He say these people were ever born-again?

HE said that it was those that were lawless...did not obey His commands and follow the Moral law.

Right. Not that they were born-again.

Jesus (not me) said they were false prophets and ravenous wolves(not ex-sheep who were once born again.

15 “Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.​

Matthew 7:15 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 7:15&version=NASB

Jesus didn't speak too much about being saved.

In this passage about ravenous woves He sure didn’t.

 

[TheGoldenThread]

Who said this besides you? Not me.

Nope, that’s not what I said and not what I believe.

Me knowing that the gift of eternal life is a gift from The Father does not mean God chooses people to go to Hell. That’s NOT logical.

First, I didn’t share your statement that God chooses people to go to Hell, you did.
Second,
If g = F (gift is free) then G = H (God chooses some for Hell)
is not a logical statement. Your conclusion does not follow from your premises.


Of course I don’t believe a gift being free means God chooses some people to go to Hell. Why would I???
Nor do I believe that because a gift is free that means New England will win the 2019 Super Bowl.
One thing has nothing to do with the other thing.

First, I’ve not even mentioned Paul’s words in this thread.

Second, just because me and Jesus both know that it really is a work of God that I believe in Christ does not mean that I believe that out of a desire to willfully sin. I have zero desire to sin (willfully or not).

"Because it’s not. A ritual is a series of worship actions. Confessing “Jesus is Lord” is...well... a confession."

It seems I've been getting people mixed up in my replies. Sorry about that.

What I quoted above is something that you said in one of your reply's. Correct?

I'm not sure why you later said you don't believe confessing Jesus is something you believe. Maybe I am misquoting you?

The reason why hell comes into play is because of the insistence on saying the free gift that God gives us comes without us having to do anything. Correct me if I am wrong, but that is what you believe? I can appreciate that you may say that we must "accept" the free gift, if so, what must we do? I assume this is when you said we must confess Jesus. If so, then confessing Jesus is the Pre-requisite to believing in Jesus. This is what you must agree to if confessing Jesus is a requirement. If this is what we must do, then it is work based salvation. Either we do this work of confessing Jesus and be saved, or we don't do this work of confessing Jesus and we are lost. Can you see how this is a work that we must do?

If this is true, then God either chooses people to be able to say this prayer and be saved, or God doesn't allow people to do it. It was all finished by Jesus so we have no part in determining our eternal salvation. That means God chooses who goes to hell and who doesn't. I think you can see this, and by your reaction I think it shows that you understand, but not admitting in seeing it is all that is missing.

Anyways, just to be clear on what I believe.

I don't believe we need to say a prayer asking Jesus into our hearts. This ritual or confessing Jesus came from one verse from Paul taking out of context.

Second, Jesus said that people must obey Him to be saved (Matthew 7:21 & John 15). Someone can receive salvation, but can later lose it through disobedience. This trend has happened all through the OT. God chose Israel and these people became self-righteous because of this and felt like God owed them something. God took away their inheritence the same way He can take away our salvation (Matthew 23)

God makes the rules, so He can choose to do what He wants. That means rejecting people that reject Him (even though they call Him Lord Lord some time in our past).

Our eternal destiny is based on our obedience to God as revealed through the Word of God (Jesus). I am not advocating following the OT; I am advocating following Jesus (The Word of God).

This is what Jesus taught, so this is what I teach.

In peace

 

[TheGoldenThread]

you should read chessman 's post again he clearly said we believe the work Jesus did or not

paul is the one that said in Romans 10:9 that we ARE SAVED WHEN WE believe in our heart and confess with our mouth that Jesus is Lord -

I can't find that post. Do you mind posting it again?

It sounds like you are trying to moderate, which is appreciative, but are you also wanting to promote your view as well?

I am just confused because you seem to be answering towards a specific point of view. Usually moderators do what their name entails (i.e., moderates) so keeping an un-bias view would be appreciated. However, if you are wanting to share your view, then that is fine, I am just confused as to which role you are acting at in this thread because it is not clear to me.

In peace

 

[Truthfrees]

I can't find that post. Do you mind posting it again?

It sounds like you are trying to moderate, which is appreciative, but are you also wanting to promote your view as well?

I am just confused because you seem to be answering towards a specific point of view. Usually moderators do what their name entails (i.e., moderates) so keeping an un-bias view would be appreciated. However, if you are wanting to share your view, then that is fine, I am just confused as to which role you are acting at in this thread because it is not clear to me.

In peace

the moderating part was: ask people what they are meaning rather then tell them what they are meaning -

this one small tactic will keep the discussion on a friendly track

 

[TheGoldenThread]

the moderating part was: ask people what they are meaning rather then tell them what they are meaning -

this one small tactic will keep the discussion on a friendly track

I can see your point. Thanks for that.

 

[chessman]

It seems I've been getting people mixed up in my replies.

Or it could be that you are mixed up about what people have said and thus your replies sometimes reflect your confusion over what people have said.

Take for example your following statement:

This ritual or confessing Jesus came from one verse from Paul taking out of context.

I’m gonna quote Jesus and Paul and then say something below about your exact statement (and because I quoted you, you and I both know what exactly was said):

And I say to you, everyone who confesses Me in front of people, the Son of Man also will confess him in front of the angels of God.​

Luke 12:8 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Luke 12:8&version=DLNT

This is what Jesus taught about confessing Him, not just “one verse from Paul”. And it was said by both of them in the context to salvation.

that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord and you believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.​

Romans 10:9 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Romans 10:9&version=DLNT

So, do you still believe “...confessing Jesus came from one verse from Paul taking out of context”? Or has what Jesus and Paul both said about confessing Jesus convinced you otherwise?

​

What I quoted above is something that you said in one of your reply's. Correct?

Yes. All you had to do is to select/highlight those two sentences and then click on the “+quote” option that appears under the selected portion and it’s queued up for you to later insert into a reply by using the “inser quotes...” option.

I'm not sure why you later said you don't believe confessing Jesus is something you believe. Maybe I am misquoting you?

Yes, you are misquoting me. Why not learn how to use the +quote features of this Forum’s software and just described and insert the exact quote(s) you are replying to so it can be discussed further or clarified (if needed)? By simply clicking on the “reply” option, it quotes the entire post versus selecting (highlighting with your curser/finger) one or more specific statements of a member. Anyway, what I said and what I believe is that confessing Jesus is Lord is not a ritual it’s a confession. Confessions are not rituals. Look up the definition of both words and you’ll see I’m correct in what I actually said.

I assume this is when you said we must confess Jesus.

Again, use +quote of me actually saying something you think or seem to recall me saying and we can discuss it further.

Either we do this work of confessing Jesus and be saved, or we don't do this work of confessing Jesus and we are lost. Can you see how this is a work that we must do?

You are confusing two different words again. A confession is not a ritual and neither is a confession a “work”.

If this is true, then God either chooses people to be able to say this prayer and be saved, or God doesn't allow people to do it.

It not true in the first place.

It was all finished by Jesus so we have no part in determining our eternal salvation. That means God chooses who goes to hell and who doesn't.

Please quote the Scripture saying ‘it was all finished by Jesus so we have no part in determining our eternal salvation’. You might just be confusing something He actually said with something you think He said.

In addition, the fact that all the prophecies associated Jesus’ crucifixion was finished on the cross in no way means all the prophecy associated with His resurrection was finished on the cross. And it certainly doesn’t mean God chooses who goes to Hell.

The is no evidence (Biblical or that I have stated) that means God chooses who goes to Hell and who doesn’t.

 

[for_his_glory]

Sorry I have been MIA on this thread the last couple of weeks. I've had bronchitis and am now gaining my strength back. It's going to take me a bit of time to read through all of the replies and to reply back. Just didn't want anyone to think I was ignoring anyone.

 

[WalterandDebbie]

Sorry I have been MIA on this thread the last couple of weeks. I've had bronchitis and am now gaining my strength back. It's going to take me a bit of time to read through all of the replies and to reply back. Just didn't want anyone to think I was ignoring anyone.

Ok! we will be in prayer for you.

 

[GodsGrace]

Jesus used the words eternal life and born again and born of God

1. ETERNAL LIFE : https://www.biblegateway.com/quicks...LIFE&version=NKJV&searchtype=phrase&bookset=4

2. BORN OF GOD : https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?search=BORN+OF+GOD&version=NKJV&searchtype=phrase

3. BORN OF THE SPIRIT : https://www.biblegateway.com/quicks...IRIT&version=NKJV&searchtype=phrase&bookset=4

4. BORN AGAIN : https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?search=BORN+AGAIN&version=NKJV&searchtype=phrase&bookset=4

5. ENTER THE KINGDOM OF GOD : https://www.biblegateway.com/quicks...+GOD&version=NKJV&searchtype=phrase&bookset=4

6. ENTER THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN : https://www.biblegateway.com/quicks...AVEN&version=NKJV&searchtype=phrase&bookset=4

I agree.
Jesus spoke about how to be with God at our death...
Eternal Life.

He spoke about the Kingdom of God/Heaven more than anything else.
How to enter it
What it is
How to stay in it
What the rules are
WHO rules it
etc.

If you notice, Jesus did not use the expression "born again" except maybe 2 or 3 times. This can be verified, which it looks like you might have attempted to do.

Jesus spoke a lot about the good deeds we are to do and how we're to believe in God (not be atheists). He spoke a lot about how we're to behave.

I believe in being born again,,,but sometimes I think this phrase gets some people mixed up.

 

[GodsGrace]

Sorry I have been MIA on this thread the last couple of weeks. I've had bronchitis and am now gaining my strength back. It's going to take me a bit of time to read through all of the replies and to reply back. Just didn't want anyone to think I was ignoring anyone.

You make me feel badly...
I ignore my threads many times!
(once they get going).

Take care of yourself.

 

[GodsGrace]

Where did He say these people were ever born-again?


Right. Not that they were born-again.

Jesus (not me) said they were false prophets and ravenous wolves(not ex-sheep who were once born again.

15 “Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.​

Matthew 7:15 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 7:15&version=NASB


In this passage about ravenous woves He sure didn’t.

I agree with you!

 

[for_his_glory]

You make me feel badly...
I ignore my threads many times!
(once they get going).

Take care of yourself.

Don't feel bad about ignoring your own post as sometimes we just need to move on. I felt bad because you ask me a question some pages back and I never replied to you. I didn't want you to think I was ignoring you.

I am doing much better, but not 100% myself yet. I usually never get sick, but this really kicked my butt.

 

[GodsGrace]

Don't feel bad about ignoring your own post as sometimes we just need to move on. I felt bad because you ask me a question some pages back and I never replied to you. I didn't want you to think I was ignoring you.

I am doing much better, but not 100% myself yet. I usually never get sick, but this really kicked my butt.

Dontcha worry about it.
Known you long enough now.
We forget. I always have a lot going on....
It's OK.

GET WELL!

 

[Truthfrees]

I agree.
Jesus spoke about how to be with God at our death...
Eternal Life.

He spoke about the Kingdom of God/Heaven more than anything else.
How to enter it
What it is
How to stay in it
What the rules are
WHO rules it
etc.

If you notice, Jesus did not use the expression "born again" except maybe 2 or 3 times. This can be verified, which it looks like you might have attempted to do.

Jesus spoke a lot about the good deeds we are to do and how we're to believe in God (not be atheists). He spoke a lot about how we're to behave.

I believe in being born again,,,but sometimes I think this phrase gets some people mixed up.

yes - i suppose the way people use scripture is not as good as reading scripture in context

 

[GodsGrace]

yes - i suppose the way people use scripture is not as good as reading scripture in context

I couldn't agree with you more !
With proof texts you could prove practically anything.
It's when you read the entire N.T. that you get a good idea of what it is that God is trying to tell us.

I also do what you said in the sense that my bible is double columned..I never tried using a ruler; I will. I do like to read it more than listen to it...it seems to sink in better.

I have a problem with Revelation --- it's me.
Also I don't have the O.T. properly memorized...
It's just too much. I remember a lot from it but also forget a lot.

Also, I have to say that I don't like to argue about too much stuff...there are a couple of concepts or doctrine that I feel could have an effect on salvation; other than that, not much is worth arguing about --- we're all serving the same Lord.

Thanks for the post....maybe I'll listen to the O.T.???
Yeah.

P.S. It can also be found on YouTube.

 

[for_his_glory]

i'm trying to think of how to simply and clearly explain to someone how to start being lead by the Spirit

In order to tell someone how to simply start being lead by the Holy Spirit comes from ones own experience of their following the Holy Spirit.

Acts 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

This is the problem as the teaching about God's salvation and His Holy Spirit are far from being taught today. We are being told what to do in bits and pieces, but not being told why we need to do the things God tells us within being obedient to His commands and statures. I was never taught what salvation truly meant nor about the whole purpose of the Holy Spirit, but to only accept it in order to be a part of the kingdom of God.

There are no ritual prayers or wailing at the altar, there is only confessing we are sinners in need of a Savior. It's all putting one foot in front of the other as we take it upon our self to learn who and what Jesus has done for us by our heavenly Father.

There is no working for God's salvation as it is freely given by His grace to all who will accept it. Confessing and accepting is not works, but that of the matter of ones heart. Once we confess and accept then it's time to grow in faith which is not even our faith, but trust in Christ Jesus and His finished works upon the cross.

The Holy Spirit in whom Christ sent down when He ascended up to heaven is the Spirit of God come to indwell us, to teach us the mysteries of God's word in all truths. He is our comforter, our guide who helps us stay on that straight and narrow path.

Faith is without works as faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Where works comes into being is that of the continued works of Christ that through the empowerment of the Holy Spirit we continue in that which Christ first started. Even the works we do are not our own, but a continuance of the love of Christ as we let the light of Christ shine through us that others may come to know Him.

Faith, salvation and the Holy Spirit are not hard to understand, but it is man that makes it all hard to understand.

 

[Truthfrees]

I couldn't agree with you more !
With proof texts you could prove practically anything.
It's when you read the entire N.T. that you get a good idea of what it is that God is trying to tell us.

I also do what you said in the sense that my bible is double columned..I never tried using a ruler; I will. I do like to read it more than listen to it...it seems to sink in better.

I have a problem with Revelation --- it's me.
Also I don't have the O.T. properly memorized...
It's just too much. I remember a lot from it but also forget a lot.

Also, I have to say that I don't like to argue about too much stuff...there are a couple of concepts or doctrine that I feel could have an effect on salvation; other than that, not much is worth arguing about --- we're all serving the same Lord.

Thanks for the post....maybe I'll listen to the O.T.???
Yeah.

P.S. It can also be found on YouTube.

amen - well said - i do feel that way pretty much too

i think it would be interesting what a whole bunch of us speed reading the nt together would see on the 2nd or 3rd time through

also speed reading the ot is probably a good way to get through the rough spots

 

[WalterandDebbie]

did you mean with or without?

i think you made a typo?

with, no not any typo that I can see, Our proper Faith in Christ with works is alive.

 

[TheGoldenThread]

Thanks for helping me work out how to use the quotes. (:

I’m gonna quote Jesus and Paul and then say something below about your exact statement (and because I quoted you, you and I both know what exactly was said):

And I say to you, everyone who confesses Me in front of people, the Son of Man also will confess him in front of the angels of God.Luke 12:8 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Luke 12:8&version=DLNT

This is what Jesus taught about confessing Him, not just “one verse from Paul”. And it was said by both of them in the context to salvation.

that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord and you believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.Romans 10:9 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Romans 10:9&version=DLNT

So, do you still believe “...confessing Jesus came from one verse from Paul taking out of context”? Or has what Jesus and Paul both said about confessing Jesus convinced you otherwise?

I will start by focusing on the scripture from Jesus in Luke 12:8 and Romans 10:9. Both of these are still being taken out of context. We must understand that confessing Jesus back then was a serious issue. Unlike today, in the west, there are no repercussions for proclaiming Jesus as Lord. In fact, you are seen as 'respectable', a nice guy, if you confess Jesus. In Jesus' and Paul's time if you were to confess belief in Jesus, then you were hunted down, murdered or put in jail. Just the act of confessing Jesus was met with these consequences. It takes great amount of faith to do that. Even if you continue reading Luke 12, you will see Jesus going on and saying not to worry about going before Kings, governors, etc. for His name sake. He was preparing people to be ready to die or be imprisoned for proclaiming His name. Where is this happening in the west? I agree, if someone is in a Muslim country and they will kill you for professing your faith, then I would consider them saved because they will have died a martyr. There faith isn't dead like most Christians in the west. People confess Jesus as Lord all the time, yet their hearts are far away from them. (Matthew 15:8)

On judgment day, Jesus will deny people entrance into Heaven even though they 'confessed' Jesus as Lord (Matthew 7:21-22 & Matthew 25: 31-46) Notice in both these teachings, Jesus is requiring us to do more than just "confess" him to be saved.

Jesus throughout His ministry questioned people who would profess Him as lord, yet wouldn't obey Him (Luke 6:46). This teaching of only "confessing" Jesus as lord in order to be saved allows for lawlessness. Sure, I understand that may not be the intent, but when it becomes a consistent theme in the fruit of the people obeying such a doctrine, then we must question the origin and see if it lines up with the author (Jesus). If we honestly do this with the teachings you are promoting, then we will see that it doesn't come from Jesus, rather it comes from teachers that want to tickle people's ears. Instead of giving them the truth as Jesus gave it. It won't make them popular, so they twist the scriptures to fill in their churches.

Anyway, what I said and what I believe is that confessing Jesus is Lord is not a ritual it’s a confession. Confessions are not rituals. Look up the definition of both words and you’ll see I’m correct in what I actually said.

Confessing Jesus is part of the ritual. You are correct when you say confessing Jesus and a ritual have two different dictionary definitions, but so does being dunked in water have a different definition than a ritual. That doesn't prove it is not part of a ritual that people came up with as the formula for salvation. Jesus taught confessing Him in the context of being tried by someone who will either kill or arrest you for confessing belief in Jesus. This type of persecution can happen on a smaller scale, but keeping these two scripture in context (Luke 12 & Romans 10), we get the conclusion that they both were preparing people to die for this confession. A great amount of faith will be required for this.

You are confusing two different words again. A confession is not a ritual and neither is a confession a “work”.

This is the same argument as you used above. I made my point clear.

Please quote the Scripture saying ‘it was all finished by Jesus so we have no part in determining our eternal salvation’. You might just be confusing something He actually said with something you think He said.

The scripture I was eluding to is when Jesus said "it is finished" on the cross. I am making the point that people take this saying as a way to justify disobedience to everything that Jesus said. Since Jesus did it all, there is nothing we should do. This isn't consistent. People say we don't have to do anything, yet they later say that we must do these rituals to be considered a believer (eg. confess Jesus with our lips, get water baptized, go to church). If people don't do these things, then they are not considered a believer. How can they say this, yet don't consider any of these things as works? It seems pretty strange to me.

In addition, the fact that all the prophecies associated Jesus’ crucifixion was finished on the cross in no way means all the prophecy associated with His resurrection was finished on the cross. And it certainly doesn’t mean God chooses who goes to Hell.

The is no evidence (Biblical or that I have stated) that means God chooses who goes to Hell and who doesn’t.

I agree. I don't think God chooses people to go hell. If people think that there is nothing we can do to receive salvation, then they MUST believe God chooses people to go to hell. Not because it is biblical, but because it is the rational conclusion that this doctrine must follow to keep it true.

I'll elaborate.

Jesus paid for the sins of the whole world. We can agree to this. Therefore, everybody is covered under the blood? Correct? If you answer yes, then you are being consistent with your doctrine. We don't need to do anything to receive God's free gift. That means every sinner will go to Heaven because Jesus paid for their sins; down to the last atheist and satanist. Past, Present, and Future. This is where people will disagree. Fair enough. I also disagree.

Most likely people will say only those that believe the gospel or Jesus (or something to this effect) will go to heaven. Pause. Are people putting a condition on salvation? I thought it was free? If it is free, then why do people say that we must "believe" in Jesus. Of course! Because that is a requirement that Jesus laid out in John 3:16. Duh!

Now the big question is: How do we believe Jesus? We already learned that we can't just confess him as lord, because Jesus will still send people to hell that has professed Him as Lord. What is it then?

I'll leave it there.

In peace

 

[chessman]

Thanks for helping me work out how to use the quotes.

You’re welcome. Would you mind answering

So, do you still believe “...confessing Jesus came from one verse from Paul taking out of context”?

We must understand that confessing Jesus back then was a serious issue.

I said this In post #40:

But then cofessing “Jesus is Lord” with your mouth could and did get people’s hands and feet nailed to a cross. Whereas now it gets you laughed at in the USA and thrown in jail in China and other countries.

I will start by focusing on the scripture from Jesus in Luke 12:8 and Romans 10:9. Both of these are still being taken out of context.

A great place to start, no doubt. But who’s taking them out of context? Not me. Or at least nobody’s shown any evidence that I’ve taken these Scriptures out of context. See where I’d already pointed out that what Jesus and Paul meant by confessing Jesus is Lord was NOT merely a ritual. It’s just what it says it is, a confession. Get it??? Like a confession in court! Which, by the way, those Jesus will tell to depart from Him where not confessing Jesus is Lord, they were questioning Him not “confessing” Him. A question is not a confession. Neither is a confession a ritual. Even in their question to Him, they where questioning His Lordship.

On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many miracles in your name?’​

Matthew 7:22 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 7:22&version=LEB

Jesus taught confessing Him in the context of being tried by someone who will either kill or arrest you for confessing belief in Jesus. This type of persecution can happen on a smaller scale

Sure. It can even happen on a spiritual scale, inside one’s heart, too. When I confessed Jesus is Lord it WAS NOT done so out of fear fear for my life by human hands/governors/persecution in this world. But it WAS done under a threat to my life by His hands (Jesus’) in the next world.

A great amount of faith will be required for this.

When God gives someone the gift of saving faith (a noun), He does so abundantly:

But when the kindness and love for mankind of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not by deeds of righteousness that we have done, but because of his mercy, through the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that, having been justified by his grace, we may become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.​

Titus 3:4-7 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Titus 3:4-7&version=LEB

Jesus paid for the sins of the whole world. We can agree to this.

Sure. He’s not just the King of the Jews but the King of all Kings.

QUOTE="TheGoldenThread, post: 1500423, member: 14117"] Therefore, everybody is covered under the blood? Correct?[/QUOTE]
Correct. Everyone who confesses Jesus is Lord from every tribe, tongue and nation are covered under the blood from the seed of Abraham. God provided the Sacrifice for Jews and Gentiles through Christ.