False churches: I have new standards.

[Dave...]

I'm not sure what forum this topic best fits into..

I used to go by the old stand by, that is, if they have the essentials right, then the rest is just honest differences. But as the years go by I'm beginning to see how naive that way of thinking may be. The problem also arises in what to do with it.

I spent some years in a Pentecostal church. I didn't agree with their understanding of scripture, but as the stand by said, they had the essentials right, so no big deal, right? Paul's approach seems to be that if they reject the truth and hold onto lies, brush the dust from your feet and move on. "But if anyone is ignorant, let him be ignorant.". He told the church of Corinth that they were acting like children. Somehow, in this church that I was attending, all these rebukes became commands and good things. Basically what they did was recreate the mystery religions that had infiltrated the Church of Corinth way back then. I don't want to debate the doctrines. I've done it in the past and it doesn't do any good.

So, the problem at hand.

Just to put a number on it to make a point...

If a church has an 80% correct understanding of scripture. And all the essentials included. But the 20% that they have wrong, is 90% of their focus. And, I would almost go so far as to say that the 80% is only valuable to them because they mostly use it to advance the 20% that is false, is it a false church? They may not see it that way, but that's the way I seen it.

I remember a sermon that I was listening to by Alistair Begg. He was on a golf outing or something with other local pastors and one of them asked him, speaking of Alistair's church, "what's your "thing"? Apparently, every church should have a "thing". Alistair's response was classic. "Might Jesus be my thing?".

That's really all of it in a nut shell. When Jesus is only important to advance their "thing".

It seems to me that the true "honest differences" churches are usually well balanced in their teaching and Jesus is always their main focus. I avoid churches that have a "thing" for their main focus, because everything else is just used to advance their 'thing', including Jesus.

That's where I'm at.

Any thoughts?

Dave

 

[Bruce.Leiter]

For a dozen years, I stayed with a church that had the doctrines of the Bible correct but refused to reach out to the lost in their community in any meaningful way to present Jesus to them. The assumption was that everyone in our small town was a Christian. I knew that was untrue. I tried to offer a witnessing course to the church, but very few members were interested.

Finally, I began looking for another church that had a balanced, biblical view of reaching out to unbelievers in the community AND ministering to believers within the church. I found one that based their ministry on the Bible as they reach out and reach in.

 

[Free]

For a dozen years, I stayed with a church that had the doctrines of the Bible correct but refused to reach out to the lost in their community in any meaningful way to present Jesus to them. The assumption was that everyone in our small town was a Christian. I knew that was untrue. I tried to offer a witnessing course to the church, but very few members were interested.

Would that not suggest that they didn't have some doctrine(s) of the Bible correct? We act on what we believe to be true, so if a church refuses to act the way the Bible tells us to, then that, to me, suggests there is a serious error in belief somewhere.

 

[Free]

I'm not sure what forum this topic best fits into..

I used to go by the old stand by, that is, if they have the essentials right, then the rest is just honest differences. But as the years go by I'm beginning to see how naive that way of thinking may be. The problem also arises in what to do with it.

I spent some years in a Pentecostal church. I didn't agree with their understanding of scripture, but as the stand by said, they had the essentials right, so no big deal, right? Paul's approach seems to be that if they reject the truth and hold onto lies, brush the dust from your feet and move on. "But if anyone is ignorant, let him be ignorant.". He told the church of Corinth that they were acting like children. Somehow, in this church that I was attending, all these rebukes became commands and good things. Basically what they did was recreate the mystery religions that had infiltrated the Church of Corinth way back then. I don't want to debate the doctrines. I've done it in the past and it doesn't do any good.

So, the problem at hand.

Just to put a number on it to make a point...

If a church has an 80% correct understanding of scripture. And all the essentials included. But the 20% that they have wrong, is 90% of their focus. And, I would almost go so far as to say that the 80% is only valuable to them because they mostly use it to advance the 20% that is false, is it a false church? They may not see it that way, but that's the way I seen it.

Numbers get us into trouble, since we all "see in a mirror dimly" (1 Cor 13:12. ESV) and we should be careful to not think we know 100%. However, your point is well made. If a church doesn't teach the whole counsel of God or teaches it in a very unbalanced way, then that certainly is problematic.

I remember a sermon that I was listening to by Alistair Begg. He was on a golf outing or something with other local pastors and one of them asked him, speaking of Alistair's church, "what's your "thing"? Apparently, every church should have a "thing". Alistair's response was classic. "Might Jesus be my thing?".

That's really all of it in a nut shell. When Jesus is only important to advance their "thing".

It seems to me that the true "honest differences" churches are usually well balanced in their teaching and Jesus is always their main focus. I avoid churches that have a "thing" for their main focus, because everything else is just used to advance their 'thing', including Jesus.

That's where I'm at.

Any thoughts?

Dave

I agree with Begg. If a church is going to have a "thing," it should be Jesus. Unfortunately, too many have a thing and it isn't Jesus, which leaves many thinking they're Christians when they're not. Getting entertained in church all the way to hell.

 

[Dave...]

For what it's worth. To dive down a rabbit hole for a second...

I was thinking about this and reminded myself the standard that I use for radio pastors when I was first saved. The standard was simple. I don't need to agree with everything that they teach on the nonessentials, but I must be convinced that they love the truth. That served me well for radio. The two radio pastors that I listen to the most are Begg and Macarthur. I can't recall any major disagreements in anything. I did notice a silence when it comes to some of the Hades and OT saints beliefs that I have. I don't know that they necessarily disagreed, but it's more of holding back on something that they may not have been sure of, is my best guess. I respected that, and that spoke loudly to me. Maybe since I came to be comfortable with them as teachers over the years they touched on those doctrines and I missed it. I don't know.

The old sand by seems to be failing these days. I don't know. Thanks for the responses.

Dave

 

[Marilyn C]

Hi Dave,

A very important topic, especially for our day as there are all sorts of `flavors` out there. First I believe the `Church` the Ekklesia, (called out of Israel and the nations) are the 2`s and 3`s we regularly relate to, pray, share God`s word, help reach out to others, etc. Then if people want to go to man`s public meeting, well that up to them. However, more and more these days we find every flavor of man out there and wonder what it is all about.

Well, let me assure you that you are right about the basics - Salvation, (word of God trinity) baptism, infilling of the Holy Spirit, gifts of the Holy Spirit, 5 fold ministries of the ascended lord and then.......

Of course there are lots of errors on those above however the bottom line for the all encompassing error to get you into the trib, is typified by the Laodicean group. (Rev. 3: 14) `Lao,` people, `dike` justice, the people`s justice. Watch out for that word for it means that the group is focused on getting justice for people, now, on this earth. They are out to transform this world by the `7 mountains,` of the World System - religion, education, law, government, arts, entertainment etc. They will work with others whom they think are `good` to see (they think) society change. They talk of having a Christian Culture to supplant the world`s culture. Other names are `Dominionists,` seeking to take dominion in all areas.

The bottom line is that they think WE, yes WE, have to bring in a change in society and then the Lord can come. (like really).

Have you heard any of that?

 

[Who Me]

If a church has an 80% correct understanding of scripture. And all the essentials included. But the 20% that they have wrong, is 90% of their focus

It is how a church practically applies its doctrine in everyday reality that matters.

The gospel is to be lived in the lives of the church members, the actions of the church h have be to honour God and encourage non believers to ask questions.

Majoring in minor issues to the neglect of gospel truth is always a big no no.

 

[Free]

A very important topic, especially for our day as there are all sorts of `flavors` out there. First I believe the `Church` the Ekklesia, (called out of Israel and the nations) are the 2`s and 3`s we regularly relate to, pray, share God`s word, help reach out to others, etc.

What do you mean by “called out of Israel”? What makes you think that the church is “the 2’s and 3’s”? Where is that in Scripture? Wouldn’t “2’s and 3’s” exponentially increase the number of “flavors” and erroneous teachings and heresies?

Then if people want to go to man`s public meeting, well that up to them.

What makes it “man’s” public meeting? How do you know it isn’t God’s public meeting? Does four or five people constitute man’s public meeting? Where is the cutoff in numbers and why?

In Acts 1:15 and 2:1 we see that they were gathering for prayer and such as a group of around 120. In Acts 12:12 there were “many.” Acts 2:42-47 strongly suggests larger groups of believers gathering together. Romans 16:5 suggests that the church in Prisca and Aquila’s house was more than 3.

Everything about the NT writings suggests gatherings of more than 2 or 3. Just look at the language used in them in the problems and other things they are addressing.

However, more and more these days we find every flavor of man out there and wonder what it is all about.

But, you would prefer these flavors to be multiplied millions of times over and so divide the Church and increase error and heresy.

Watch out for that word for it means that the group is focused on getting justice for people, now, on this earth.

What is the problem with that? Have you not read in Scripture the hundreds of times God addresses the need for justice now on the earth? How he uses issues of justice to gauge his people’s hearts?

We are called to advance the kingdom of God in this world and a big part of that is by following Jesus’s example and bringing justice for the marginalized and outcast. Anything that excludes that is not Christianity.

 

[Marilyn C]

What do you mean by “called out of Israel”? What makes you think that the church is “the 2’s and 3’s”? Where is that in Scripture? Wouldn’t “2’s and 3’s” exponentially increase the number of “flavors” and erroneous teachings and heresies?


What makes it “man’s” public meeting? How do you know it isn’t God’s public meeting? Does four or five people constitute man’s public meeting? Where is the cutoff in numbers and why?

In Acts 1:15 and 2:1 we see that they were gathering for prayer and such as a group of around 120. In Acts 12:12 there were “many.” Acts 2:42-47 strongly suggests larger groups of believers gathering together. Romans 16:5 suggests that the church in Prisca and Aquila’s house was more than 3.

Everything about the NT writings suggests gatherings of more than 2 or 3. Just look at the language used in them in the problems and other things they are addressing.


But, you would prefer these flavors to be multiplied millions of times over and so divide the Church and increase error and heresy.


What is the problem with that? Have you not read in Scripture the hundreds of times God addresses the need for justice now on the earth? How he uses issues of justice to gauge his people’s hearts?

We are called to advance the kingdom of God in this world and a big part of that is by following Jesus’s example and bringing justice for the marginalized and outcast. Anything that excludes that is not Christianity.

Hi Free,

`For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.` (Matt. 18: 20)

The Head of His Body in the midst of believers. They would of course disciple others (as Jesus said) and so on. Sometimes they would also gather in larger numbers.

As to `erroneous` teachings, I think someone over thousands would do more damage than 2`s & 3`s.

`Public meetings.` Well, man has organized it, hopefully by the Holy Spirit & they are usually public.

And as to `advancing the kingdom of God,` please tell me when God ever gave away any of His Kingdom. He made it all and never gave any away.

`The earth is the Lord`s and all its fullness, the world and those who dwell therein.` (Ps. 24: 1)

 

[Free]

Hi Free,

`For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.` (Matt. 18: 20)

The Head of His Body in the midst of believers. They would of course disciple others (as Jesus said) and so on. Sometimes they would also gather in larger numbers.

Jesus's wasn't making a statement of how small church gatherings should be. You must look at the context:

Mat 18:15 “If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother.
Mat 18:16 But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses.
Mat 18:17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.
Mat 18:18 Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Mat 18:19 Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven.
Mat 18:20 For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them.” (ESV)

First, notice that verse 18 does away with your argument by clearly showing that "two or three" does not constitute the church. Second, Jesus's statement in verse 20 is a general statement to support what he said in verse 19--the "for" at the start of verse 20 shows that it is linked to verse 19 and forms the basis of why what is asked will be done by the Father.

As to `erroneous` teachings, I think someone over thousands would do more damage than 2`s & 3`s.

Not at all. The number of "churches" would exponentially increase, with each "church" just as or more likely to be teaching something false or outright heretical. One of the main problems these days is that worldly thinking and self-centeredness have entered the Church and individual believers just want to be right without anyone telling them they're wrong or even likely wrong. Just look at the disagreements on these forums with some of the errors and some of the heresies. Some actually get offended when correction is offered. Cults generally start by removing themselves from the established Church over disagreement and begin doing their own thing, like the JWs, even with the best of intentions.

The NT church had an authority structure to deal with what was being taught and some denominations have that now, as they should. So, while there is sometimes little accountability for what is being taught from a pulpit, there is absolutely no accountability for what two or three might teach each other.

`Public meetings.` Well, man has organized it, hopefully by the Holy Spirit & they are usually public.

And, what is wrong with that? How is that any different from two or three organizing their own meeting, maybe even inviting others over? While it may not be public, it's still man-organized, "hopefully by the Holy Spirit."

And as to `advancing the kingdom of God,` please tell me when God ever gave away any of His Kingdom. He made it all and never gave any away.

`The earth is the Lord`s and all its fullness, the world and those who dwell therein.` (Ps. 24: 1)

Maybe you don't know what I meant, which is concerning because that is exactly the problem I pointed out where false teachings can be spread amongst only two or three when there is no accountability. There are two equal and opposite ways that false teachings can happen: 1) by adding to Scripture and 2) by not teaching all of Scripture.

The kingdom of God is the inbreaking of God's righteousness and reign upon the earth through followers of Christ, culminating at the return of Christ when his kingdom will then be fully established. Jesus said much about the kingdom of God, as did the Apostles:

Mat 12:28 But if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. (ESV)

Mat 21:43 Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruits. (ESV)

Mar 1:14 Now after John was arrested, Jesus came into Galilee, proclaiming the gospel of God,
Mar 1:15 and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.” (ESV)

Mar 9:1 And he said to them, “Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God after it has come with power.” (ESV)

Act 28:23 When they had appointed a day for him, they came to him at his lodging in greater numbers. From morning till evening he expounded to them, testifying to the kingdom of God and trying to convince them about Jesus both from the Law of Moses and from the Prophets.
...
Act 28:30 He lived there two whole years at his own expense, and welcomed all who came to him,
Act 28:31 proclaiming the kingdom of God and teaching about the Lord Jesus Christ with all boldness and without hindrance. (ESV)

Col 4:11 and Jesus who is called Justus. These are the only men of the circumcision among my fellow workers for the kingdom of God, and they have been a comfort to me. (ESV)

It really is what the Great Commission is about:

Mat 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
Mat 28:20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.” (ESV)

The gospels are full of Jesus's claims about the coming kingdom of God and his death a resurrection inaugurated his kingdom. The main business of being followers of Christ is to advance his kingdom, which is to make his light shine in the darkness. And that includes bringing God's justice to bear on injustices.

 

[Marilyn C]

Jesus's wasn't making a statement of how small church gatherings should be. You must look at the context:

Mat 18:15 “If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother.
Mat 18:16 But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses.
Mat 18:17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.
Mat 18:18 Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Mat 18:19 Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven.
Mat 18:20 For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them.” (ESV)

First, notice that verse 18 does away with your argument by clearly showing that "two or three" does not constitute the church. Second, Jesus's statement in verse 20 is a general statement to support what he said in verse 19--the "for" at the start of verse 20 shows that it is linked to verse 19 and forms the basis of why what is asked will be done by the Father.


Not at all. The number of "churches" would exponentially increase, with each "church" just as or more likely to be teaching something false or outright heretical. One of the main problems these days is that worldly thinking and self-centeredness have entered the Church and individual believers just want to be right without anyone telling them they're wrong or even likely wrong. Just look at the disagreements on these forums with some of the errors and some of the heresies. Some actually get offended when correction is offered. Cults generally start by removing themselves from the established Church over disagreement and begin doing their own thing, like the JWs, even with the best of intentions.

The NT church had an authority structure to deal with what was being taught and some denominations have that now, as they should. So, while there is sometimes little accountability for what is being taught from a pulpit, there is absolutely no accountability for what two or three might teach each other.


And, what is wrong with that? How is that any different from two or three organizing their own meeting, maybe even inviting others over? While it may not be public, it's still man-organized, "hopefully by the Holy Spirit."


Maybe you don't know what I meant, which is concerning because that is exactly the problem I pointed out where false teachings can be spread amongst only two or three when there is no accountability. There are two equal and opposite ways that false teachings can happen: 1) by adding to Scripture and 2) by not teaching all of Scripture.

The kingdom of God is the inbreaking of God's righteousness and reign upon the earth through followers of Christ, culminating at the return of Christ when his kingdom will then be fully established. Jesus said much about the kingdom of God, as did the Apostles:

Mat 12:28 But if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. (ESV)

Mat 21:43 Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruits. (ESV)

Mar 1:14 Now after John was arrested, Jesus came into Galilee, proclaiming the gospel of God,
Mar 1:15 and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.” (ESV)

Mar 9:1 And he said to them, “Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God after it has come with power.” (ESV)

Act 28:23 When they had appointed a day for him, they came to him at his lodging in greater numbers. From morning till evening he expounded to them, testifying to the kingdom of God and trying to convince them about Jesus both from the Law of Moses and from the Prophets.
...
Act 28:30 He lived there two whole years at his own expense, and welcomed all who came to him,
Act 28:31 proclaiming the kingdom of God and teaching about the Lord Jesus Christ with all boldness and without hindrance. (ESV)

Col 4:11 and Jesus who is called Justus. These are the only men of the circumcision among my fellow workers for the kingdom of God, and they have been a comfort to me. (ESV)

It really is what the Great Commission is about:

Mat 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
Mat 28:20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.” (ESV)

The gospels are full of Jesus's claims about the coming kingdom of God and his death a resurrection inaugurated his kingdom. The main business of being followers of Christ is to advance his kingdom, which is to make his light shine in the darkness. And that includes bringing God's justice to bear on injustices.

Thank you free for your detailed reply. Now I do agree with you about so much error around. As to the 2`s and 3`s that is the discipling that the Lord told us to do. And the `church` is the whole Body of Christ not just a denomination or public meeting or even a building.

`Christ...Head over all things to the church, which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.` (Eph. 1: 22 & 23)

In the gospels Jesus was referring to the rulership of God in people`s lives, not territory to be advanced. And for the Body of Christ the Lord is also referring to His rulership NOT territory. As I said before from Ps. 24 God made the world and all the people and did not give them away. What He is doing is putting down all rule and authority and power. (1 Cor. 15: 24)

So, you need to give scriptures where you see the Lord wanting us to take territory in the world for Him.

 

[Free]

Thank you free for your detailed reply. Now I do agree with you about so much error around. As to the 2`s and 3`s that is the discipling that the Lord told us to do. And the `church` is the whole Body of Christ not just a denomination or public meeting or even a building.

`Christ...Head over all things to the church, which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.` (Eph. 1: 22 & 23)

Yes, discipleship can happen in twos or threes, or more, but you initially stated that "the `Church` the Ekklesia, (called out of Israel and the nations) are the 2`s and 3`s we regularly relate to, pray, share God`s word, help reach out to others, etc.," which you contrasted with "man`s public meeting."

And, yes, the Church is the whole body of Christ, but there are many churches that make up the body of Christ and mostly consist of groups significantly larger than two or three. But each of those groups are churches and not merely "man's public meeting." As I have shown, that was also the case in the NT church.

Also, what do you mean by "called out of Israel"?

In the gospels Jesus was referring to the rulership of God in people`s lives, not territory to be advanced. And for the Body of Christ the Lord is also referring to His rulership NOT territory. As I said before from Ps. 24 God made the world and all the people and did not give them away. What He is doing is putting down all rule and authority and power. (1 Cor. 15: 24)


So, you need to give scriptures where you see the Lord wanting us to take territory in the world for Him.

I never said anything about "territory to be advanced" or "the Lord wanting us to take territory in the world for Him." My point was the very thing you said: "Jesus was referring to the rulership of God in people's lives." That is exactly what the kingdom of God is about at this point in time. While we wait for Jesus's return, we are to be about his kingdom business, which not only includes evangelism and discipleship, but working to bring about justice, peace, truth, etc. in all areas of life.

 

[Dave...]

Hi Dave,

Of course there are lots of errors on those above however the bottom line for the all encompassing error to get you into the trib, is typified by the Laodicean group. (Rev. 3: 14) `Lao,` people, `dike` justice, the people`s justice. Watch out for that word for it means that the group is focused on getting justice for people, now, on this earth. They are out to transform this world by the `7 mountains,` of the World System - religion, education, law, government, arts, entertainment etc. They will work with others whom they think are `good` to see (they think) society change. They talk of having a Christian Culture to supplant the world`s culture. Other names are `Dominionists,` seeking to take dominion in all areas.

Have you heard any of that?

If I'm understanding your post correctly.

Interesting, that I did hear about something just like that just recently in the political forum. Candace Owens was investigating Kamala Harris' genealogy and came across a a family member involved with a group (I don't remember what they were called) that take over power and even governments by that same plea of injustice unfair pay, etc. It's how they gain power. I don't recall the exact video it was on though. But the way it was explained, this has been going on for a long time. But the people that Candace spoke of are purely political. My guess would be that they would see Christianity as an obstacle. That's part of the victimhood, or injustice rhetoric. Hollywood calls it "Christian nationalism". It's their new propaganda word for social injustice.

Dave

 

[Marilyn C]

Yes, discipleship can happen in twos or threes, or more, but you initially stated that "the `Church` the Ekklesia, (called out of Israel and the nations) are the 2`s and 3`s we regularly relate to, pray, share God`s word, help reach out to others, etc.," which you contrasted with "man`s public meeting."

And, yes, the Church is the whole body of Christ, but there are many churches that make up the body of Christ and mostly consist of groups significantly larger than two or three. But each of those groups are churches and not merely "man's public meeting." As I have shown, that was also the case in the NT church.

Also, what do you mean by "called out of Israel"?


I never said anything about "territory to be advanced" or "the Lord wanting us to take territory in the world for Him." My point was the very thing you said: "Jesus was referring to the rulership of God in people's lives." That is exactly what the kingdom of God is about at this point in time. While we wait for Jesus's return, we are to be about his kingdom business, which not only includes evangelism and discipleship, but working to bring about justice, peace, truth, etc. in all areas of life.

So Free, is the label `church` only for public meetings? Aren`t the believers the `church,` the body of Christ. And thus, 2`s and 3`s are the `church` (or part of it) also.

Now where does the Lord the Head of His Body say that we are to be about `kingdom business?` Rather we read -

`...speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the Head - Christ - from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working buy which every part does its share, causes the growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.` (Eph. 4: 15 & 16)

You see the subtlety of changing the building up of the Body of Christ to kingdom business of trying to change the world. The enemy is getting people to change their focus from the Lord (becoming like Him) to fixing up the world system.

 

[Marilyn C]

As to `called out ` of Israel, well, the Body of Christ is NOT Gentiles (nations) or Jews, (Israel) but a whole NEW MAN.

Ekklesia, Greek for a calling out - called out of both those groups.

 

[Free]

So Free, is the label `church` only for public meetings? Aren`t the believers the `church,` the body of Christ. And thus, 2`s and 3`s are the `church` (or part of it) also.

You'll notice that I used both "Church" and "church," as is the common way of speaking of the entire body of Christ and local assemblies, respectively. Every true believer belongs to the Church and should also belong to a local church. And, no, the label "church" is not only for public meetings, but mainly is what it refers to and should refer to.

Now where does the Lord the Head of His Body say that we are to be about `kingdom business?` Rather we read -

`...speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the Head - Christ - from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working buy which every part does its share, causes the growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.` (Eph. 4: 15 & 16)

Well, we should be reading lots of things, including:

Mat 25:14 “For it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants and entrusted to them his property.
Mat 25:15 To one he gave five talents, to another two, to another one, to each according to his ability. Then he went away.
Mat 25:16 He who had received the five talents went at once and traded with them, and he made five talents more.
Mat 25:17 So also he who had the two talents made two talents more.
Mat 25:18 But he who had received the one talent went and dug in the ground and hid his master's money.
Mat 25:19 Now after a long time the master of those servants came and settled accounts with them.
Mat 25:20 And he who had received the five talents came forward, bringing five talents more, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me five talents; here, I have made five talents more.’
Mat 25:21 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’
Mat 25:22 And he also who had the two talents came forward, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me two talents; here, I have made two talents more.’
Mat 25:23 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’
Mat 25:24 He also who had received the one talent came forward, saying, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you scattered no seed,
Mat 25:25 so I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here, you have what is yours.’
Mat 25:26 But his master answered him, ‘You wicked and slothful servant! You knew that I reap where I have not sown and gather where I scattered no seed?
Mat 25:27 Then you ought to have invested my money with the bankers, and at my coming I should have received what was my own with interest.
Mat 25:28 So take the talent from him and give it to him who has the ten talents.
Mat 25:29 For to everyone who has will more be given, and he will have an abundance. But from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. (ESV)

Mat 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
Mat 28:20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.” (ESV)

Luk 12:42 And the Lord said, “Who then is the faithful and wise manager, whom his master will set over his household, to give them their portion of food at the proper time?
Luk 12:43 Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes.
Luk 12:44 Truly, I say to you, he will set him over all his possessions.
Luk 12:45 But if that servant says to himself, ‘My master is delayed in coming,’ and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and get drunk,
Luk 12:46 the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces and put him with the unfaithful.
Luk 12:47 And that servant who knew his master's will but did not get ready or act according to his will, will receive a severe beating.
Luk 12:48 But the one who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, will receive a light beating. Everyone to whom much was given, of him much will be required, and from him to whom they entrusted much, they will demand the more. (ESV)

Col 3:17 And whatever you do, in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him. (ESV)

Eph 6:5 Bondservants, obey your earthly masters with fear and trembling, with a sincere heart, as you would Christ,
Eph 6:6 not by the way of eye-service, as people-pleasers, but as bondservants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart,
Eph 6:7 rendering service with a good will as to the Lord and not to man,
Eph 6:8 knowing that whatever good anyone does, this he will receive back from the Lord, whether he is a bondservant or is free. (ESV)

Jas 1:27 Religion that is pure and undefiled before God the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world. (ESV)

If a person's Christianity doesn't have relevance for all of life, if a believer thinks Christianity only has relevance to the Church and the spiritual life, then they truly don't understand Christianity. Believers are to be salt and light and that isn't just in evangelizing, but in everything we do. Everything should be done to the glory of God and point others to him.

Do you think that believers should be bringing the light of God into everything they do, that they should be showing love and kindness to all, even those who are their "enemy" in their place of work, and doing their work "as to the Lord"?

You see the subtlety of changing the building up of the Body of Christ to kingdom business of trying to change the world. The enemy is getting people to change their focus from the Lord (becoming like Him) to fixing up the world system.

Why do you think these two things are mutually exclusive? Every Christian is gifted and skilled in different areas of work and vocation, including law, politics, economics, science, etc. Doesn't that alone suggest that Christians are to be involved in changing the world to the glory of God?

 

[Marilyn C]

You'll notice that I used both "Church" and "church," as is the common way of speaking of the entire body of Christ and local assemblies, respectively. Every true believer belongs to the Church and should also belong to a local church. And, no, the label "church" is not only for public meetings, but mainly is what it refers to and should refer to.


Well, we should be reading lots of things, including:

Mat 25:14 “For it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants and entrusted to them his property.
Mat 25:15 To one he gave five talents, to another two, to another one, to each according to his ability. Then he went away.
Mat 25:16 He who had received the five talents went at once and traded with them, and he made five talents more.
Mat 25:17 So also he who had the two talents made two talents more.
Mat 25:18 But he who had received the one talent went and dug in the ground and hid his master's money.
Mat 25:19 Now after a long time the master of those servants came and settled accounts with them.
Mat 25:20 And he who had received the five talents came forward, bringing five talents more, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me five talents; here, I have made five talents more.’
Mat 25:21 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’
Mat 25:22 And he also who had the two talents came forward, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me two talents; here, I have made two talents more.’
Mat 25:23 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’
Mat 25:24 He also who had received the one talent came forward, saying, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you scattered no seed,
Mat 25:25 so I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here, you have what is yours.’
Mat 25:26 But his master answered him, ‘You wicked and slothful servant! You knew that I reap where I have not sown and gather where I scattered no seed?
Mat 25:27 Then you ought to have invested my money with the bankers, and at my coming I should have received what was my own with interest.
Mat 25:28 So take the talent from him and give it to him who has the ten talents.
Mat 25:29 For to everyone who has will more be given, and he will have an abundance. But from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. (ESV)

Mat 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
Mat 28:20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.” (ESV)

Luk 12:42 And the Lord said, “Who then is the faithful and wise manager, whom his master will set over his household, to give them their portion of food at the proper time?
Luk 12:43 Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes.
Luk 12:44 Truly, I say to you, he will set him over all his possessions.
Luk 12:45 But if that servant says to himself, ‘My master is delayed in coming,’ and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and get drunk,
Luk 12:46 the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces and put him with the unfaithful.
Luk 12:47 And that servant who knew his master's will but did not get ready or act according to his will, will receive a severe beating.
Luk 12:48 But the one who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, will receive a light beating. Everyone to whom much was given, of him much will be required, and from him to whom they entrusted much, they will demand the more. (ESV)

Col 3:17 And whatever you do, in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him. (ESV)

Eph 6:5 Bondservants, obey your earthly masters with fear and trembling, with a sincere heart, as you would Christ,
Eph 6:6 not by the way of eye-service, as people-pleasers, but as bondservants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart,
Eph 6:7 rendering service with a good will as to the Lord and not to man,
Eph 6:8 knowing that whatever good anyone does, this he will receive back from the Lord, whether he is a bondservant or is free. (ESV)

Jas 1:27 Religion that is pure and undefiled before God the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world. (ESV)

If a person's Christianity doesn't have relevance for all of life, if a believer thinks Christianity only has relevance to the Church and the spiritual life, then they truly don't understand Christianity. Believers are to be salt and light and that isn't just in evangelizing, but in everything we do. Everything should be done to the glory of God and point others to him.

Do you think that believers should be bringing the light of God into everything they do, that they should be showing love and kindness to all, even those who are their "enemy" in their place of work, and doing their work "as to the Lord"?


Why do you think these two things are mutually exclusive? Every Christian is gifted and skilled in different areas of work and vocation, including law, politics, economics, science, etc. Doesn't that alone suggest that Christians are to be involved in changing the world to the glory of God?

When Jesus was manifest on earth He came as Israel`s king. They were to receive His rulership/kingdom rule. That is what the focus is in the gospels. The Body of Christ revelation was not given till the ascended Lord gave it to the Apostle Paul.

Col. Eph. & Jas, are all relating to us. I also agree that a believer`s life is to be relevant in this life. That is why over the centuries believers have started schools, hospitals, nursing homes, helping the poor, sick, dying, homeless, etc. We don`t disagree on any of that.

What we are not agreeing on is our `expectation` of what the Lord is going to do.

I see from God`s word that He is making us like Christ and that reveals in discipling, helping and serving others. My expectation is that the Lord will judge man`s world system, which is under the sway of the evil one. It is based on power, greed and lording it over others.

What is your `expectation? `

 

[Tenchi]

If a church has an 80% correct understanding of scripture. And all the essentials included. But the 20% that they have wrong, is 90% of their focus. And, I would almost go so far as to say that the 80% is only valuable to them because they mostly use it to advance the 20% that is false, is it a false church? They may not see it that way, but that's the way I seen it.

I find this disposition of emphasis happening within every denomination. It seems to be a very common human tendency, what Jesus called "straining at a gnat but swallowing a camel" (Matthew 23:24). The religious "hobby horse" of the Pharisees that they rode to the exclusion of nearly all else was legalism. For the Roman Catholic, it is human tradition, popery, and ritual. For the Calvinist, it is TULIP. For the hyper-charismatic, it is a sensual, fleshly experience of God. For some independent Baptist churches, it is a rabid preoccupation with "correct eschatology." And so on. No denomination, I think, escapes this human tendency to "major in the minors."

I remember a sermon that I was listening to by Alistair Begg. He was on a golf outing or something with other local pastors and one of them asked him, speaking of Alistair's church, "what's your "thing"? Apparently, every church should have a "thing". Alistair's response was classic. "Might Jesus be my thing?".

What does Begg mean, exactly, by "Jesus is my thing"? He is a prominent proponent of Reformed theology, is he not? From my removed, non-Reform position, my observation of Begg in the sermons of his I've listened to online is that he may believe his "thing" is Jesus, but this is so only through a Calvinist filter. It seems to me, then, that Begg is no more immune to the emphasis distortion you've highlighted than anyone else. Of course, Begg would deny this, but don't we all? We all think we're merely correct, not over-emphasizing our doctrinal "hobby horse."

It seems to me that the true "honest differences" churches are usually well balanced in their teaching and Jesus is always their main focus. I avoid churches that have a "thing" for their main focus, because everything else is just used to advance their 'thing', including Jesus.

That's where I'm at.

Any thoughts?

I trained in the martial arts for just shy of thirty years. In the old-style jujitsu I studied, there was "kihon waza" or, in English, "the basics." Kihon waza was the first thing I was taught. Advanced skill in the martial art relied heavily on mastery of "kihon waza" and so, there was a near-constant refreshing of "kihon waza" in my training. Even after thirty years of studying jujitsu, I was still practicing the things I first learned, deepening their roots in my movement and reflexes.

Some of my fellow practitioners, though, became bored with "kihon waza" and took to "polishing" the external forms of advanced techniques, making them graceful, and sinuous, and lightning fast. But neglect of the basics emptied these very polished advanced techniques of their effectiveness. The techniques were impressive in a carefully-arranged demonstration but were quite useless in actual combat.

The same thing happens with Christians and their faith, I think. They get bored with spiritual "kihon waza" and start polishing non-essentials, peripheral matters. But as they do, though their "mastery" of their chosen peripheral - eschatology, soteriology, Church history, Christian apologetics, Bible translations, etc. - is impressive, their walk with God is actually quite tepid and spiritually impotent. Strangely, the more this is the case, the more "polishing" of the peripheral goes on; I suppose, to compensate for the absence of anything real and transformative with God.

How is this avoided? By the same means it was avoided in the martial art I studied: near-constant refreshing of "kihon waza" and frequent testing of the same when training advanced technique. It was actually very easy to see if an advanced technique was "filled" with the necessary body skills developed from "the basics" - especially by someone whose mastery of the basics was deep and mature. In the "light" of their experience and skillful challenge, weak technique was rapidly and clearly exposed.

So, I look now for the character of Christ, for life in the Spirit, in the man who would occupy the postion of spiritual leader and teach me from God's word (Romans 8:29; Galatians 5:16, 25, Romans 8:9-14). Not his words, not the expanse of his knowledge of Christian peripherals, first of all, but his deeds, his general manner of interaction with others (Galatians 5:22-23; James 3:17-18); his ability to communicate his own daily, concrete, life-changing experience of God, of life in the Spirit, that is deep, and rich, and filled with spiritual (not merely sensual) power; his investment of his "treasure" (time, energy and money - Matthew 6:21); and his reputation among those closest to him.

I couldn't care less these days about credentials. So many men during my lifetime - Christian leaders with great credentials - have been revealed to be spiritual frauds, preaching divine truth from lives filled with enormous hypocrisy and gross, persistent sin. Think: Ravi Zacharias, Larry Taunton, Bill Hybels, James MacDonald, Tony Evans, and most recently, Steve Lawson. There is a horrifyingly long list of well-credentialed Christian men, embraced widely in no small part because of their credentials, who have been deeply spiritually corrupt. And so, I look carefully - and patiently, over time - for the things I've listed above, not the C.V. of the man who offers me his spiritual leadership, or his "charisma" (in the secular sense) in the pulpit.

 

[Free]

When Jesus was manifest on earth He came as Israel`s king. They were to receive His rulership/kingdom rule. That is what the focus is in the gospels. The Body of Christ revelation was not given till the ascended Lord gave it to the Apostle Paul.

Col. Eph. & Jas, are all relating to us. I also agree that a believer`s life is to be relevant in this life. That is why over the centuries believers have started schools, hospitals, nursing homes, helping the poor, sick, dying, homeless, etc. We don`t disagree on any of that.

What we are not agreeing on is our `expectation` of what the Lord is going to do.

I see from God`s word that He is making us like Christ and that reveals in discipling, helping and serving others. My expectation is that the Lord will judge man`s world system, which is under the sway of the evil one. It is based on power, greed and lording it over others.

What is your `expectation? `

It seems as though we likely don’t disagree on expectation either. The Lord will judge man’s world system and it will eventually be removed, but until then, we still live in the world’s system and need to bring light to it whenever and wherever we can.

 

[Dave...]

I find this disposition of emphasis happening within every denomination. It seems to be a very common human tendency, what Jesus called "straining at a gnat but swallowing a camel" (Matthew 23:24). The religious "hobby horse" of the Pharisees that they rode to the exclusion of nearly all else was legalism. For the Roman Catholic, it is human tradition, popery, and ritual. For the Calvinist, it is TULIP. For the hyper-charismatic, it is a sensual, fleshly experience of God. For some independent Baptist churches, it is a rabid preoccupation with "correct eschatology." And so on. No denomination, I think, escapes this human tendency to "major in the minors."

Sorry for taking so long. Where to begin... I am reformed. If I wasn't yet reformed in my Pentecostal days, I was well on my way. They didn't really leave much of a choice. You see their practice was to invite unbelievers in on Sunday, and the preach the same salvation message every week. It was dressed up differently, but it was the same message. I had to go outside the church to satisfy my hunger. I always thought that unbelievers should be converted first before entering the the body of believers, but that's another topic. The general outlook of that church for people like me was that we were "dry theologians", meaning we held scripture above experience. I didn't mind because the old standard said the essentials were right, and maybe I could do some good there. Eventually I left for many reason. I won't get into that.

Anyways. Baptist are all over the place. I think it's best to take each Baptist church individually. The Catholic church...I don't don't even consider them as a Christian church. Aside from using biblical names and terminology, they don't teach the Gospel. It's not even close. I'm guessing by your use of the term hyper Charismatic, the you're Charismatic or Pentecostal? Just a guess.

Calvinism. I've never seen a Calvinist church, like a Lutheran church, but I'm sure they are out there. I think when used honestly, Calvinism can by synonymous with reformed. But it also carries a negative connotation from years of people using it in place of a reasonable response, kind of like "hater" is used in politics. This goes way back, even Spurgeon complained about people doing that back in the day (quote below). I can honestly say that I was reformed long before I had ever even heard of Calvin. That's usually the case. I don't know anyone who is reformed because they read Calvin, which seems to be the perception. While I don't believe that the sign gifts are valid today, most reformed people believe that anything good that comes from us for the Church is an undeserved gift from God. Like teachers, we should try to benefit from those who are gifted from God to teach. Men who have dedicated their lives to the study and teaching of God's word. And Like good Bereans, we test everything to God's Word.

These gifted teachers have sometimes passed long ago, but it's still beneficial to take advantage of their work. Calvin would be one of them. I haven't read much of His work, but I also don't mind being called a Calvinist because I know the gist of what it means (When used honestly). I think that biggest problem with Calvinist is an individual problem. Sometimes people read their own definitions into the terminology being used these older theologians, thus making the writer say something that He never said. One of the most common ones with the newbies is to use "ordained" and "predestined" interchangeably. I would disagree with that. Funny, Spurgeon also mentions this too, that so much time is used arguing over the terminology and what it means, rather than substance of the theology that is was speaking of. The terminology can be helpful, but sometimes it can be a burdensome


""The most infamous allegations have been brought against us, and sometimes, I must fear, by men who knew them to be utterly untrue: and, to this day, there are many of our opponents, who, when they run short of matter, invent and make for themselves a man of straw, call that John Calvin and then shoot all their arrows at it. We are not come here to defend your man of straw — shoot at it or burn it as you will, and, if it suit your convenience, still oppose doctrines which were never taught, and rail at fictions which, save in your own brain, were never in existence." (7:550)"CHS Spurgeon)

What does Begg mean, exactly, by "Jesus is my thing"? He is a prominent proponent of Reformed theology, is he not? From my removed, non-Reform position, my observation of Begg in the sermons of his I've listened to online is that he may believe his "thing" is Jesus, but this is so only through a Calvinist filter. It seems to me, then, that Begg is no more immune to the emphasis distortion you've highlighted than anyone else. Of course, Begg would deny this, but don't we all? We all think we're merely correct, not over-emphasizing our doctrinal "hobby horse."

If I remember correctly, that statement came from his series called "A Christian Manifesto". He also mentioned not to get too hung up over labels. Begg is solid. I'll need to finish this later. I'm out of time.

Dave