Father?

[daninthelionsden]

From your understanding, would you also include pastor, preacher, elder, deacon?

When I read the text I posted in my OP, there seems to be an underlying purpose. Jesus seemed to be addressing the haughtiness of the Pharisees and Scribes. Is it possible Jesus was addressing this along with the titles?

Just trying to look at this from multiple angles to better understand what the text is saying.

To me Jesus is against any Temple type hierarchy. It's man's desire to keep trying to re-establish the Temple style administration. This starts layering people in between God and the flock. I believe this to be in error. The Episcopal Church has all the offices, titles, etc. the Catholic Church does except there is no pope in the Episcopal Church. The Episcopalians also refer to their priests as father.
I've attended many different types of churches and the ones I really felt at peace were the ones who merely pointed the way to Christ rather than to themselves.
Any church, large or small, or any denomination can be modeled after the Temple or after the Cross.

 

[JLB]

Are you inviting me to start an argument about the term Holy Father?

She didn’t address anyone in particular but addressed the thread itself, stating what she see’s in the scriptures.

She being a moderator for this Forum is not inviting anyone to start an argument.

Please share what you see from the scriptures about this topic.



JLB

 

[Mungo]

She didn’t address anyone in particular but addressed the thread itself, stating what she see’s in the scriptures.

Get real!

Please share what you see from the scriptures about this topic.



JLB

I have - see post #34

 

[JLB]

Get real!



I have - see post #34

Ok. Thanks for sharing.


Jesus said something interesting showing us what He values

And it happened, as He spoke these things, that a certain woman from the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts which nursed You!”
But He said, “More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”
Luke 11:27-28


But He said, “More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”



JLB

 

[HeIsRisen2018]

Matthew 23: 8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. 9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. 10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ. 11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. 12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

John 13:16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.

Only one is our Master (teacher, Rabbi, Priest, Reverend) sent by God and that is Christ, but even Christ is a servant unto the Father in heaven and not greater than God as God gave Him what to speak while He was here on earth, John 12:49, 50.

We being disciples (followers of Christ) are servants unto others, without Title, as we like Jesus can only give what God commands us to speak. This is all done by God's Holy Spirit that works in us and through us as we are one body, not denominations/non-denominations, but one body of Christ here on earth. There are different gifts, but the same Spirit as the gifts do not come with self righteous Titles, but given by God's Holy Spirit for the purpose of His ministry, 1 Corinthians 12.

Show me any scripture that says we are to worship and bow down in admiration of a man or a mans religion that lifts him higher than God calling himself Holy Father.

Umm,.. as far as I'm aware there is no scripture that says that and I know that's your point,.. but here's what Jesus says about that. Matthew 23:9. I'm sure that it's already been quoted before in this thread, but I guess that it's still falling on some deaf ears. Oh yeah, and I saw you just quoted it too.

 

[Mungo]

Umm,.. as far as I'm aware there is no scripture that says that and I know that's your point,.. but here's what Jesus says about that. Matthew 23:9. I'm sure that it's already been quoted before in this thread, but I guess that it's still falling on some deaf ears. Oh yeah, and I saw you just quoted it too.

Have you read my post #34 on this?

 

[Mungo]

Show me any scripture that says we are to worship and bow down in admiration of a man or a mans religion that lifts him higher than God calling himself Holy Father.

Why is the Pope called Holy Father? - Answers

Catholics refer to the pope as the "Holy Father". It is merely a title. Christians agree or disagree with whether this appropriate.Why Catholics use the term "Holy Father"He is called upon to practice exceptional sanctity in imitation of Jesus Whose office he serves. The pope is also the...

www.answers.com

 

[jasonc]

I'm not pro Catholic ,but worship ?

Uhm David and kings God called righteous recirved worship,context being respect,its no different then if president trump were to enter a military base the post commander would be there to salute him .that's also done for officers,warrant officers and medal of honor recipients.only,the senior is saluted first,he returns a salute,the exception of reporting in formation,for pay to an officer .that's not an act of sin ,also in,the military one salutes the pledge in uniform , and during the national anthem.

 

[HeIsRisen2018]

Have you read my post #34 on this?

Yes I saw it, but since I have problems with reading comprehension I didn't understand what you meant by it. 2

 

[for_his_glory]

Are you inviting me to start an argument about the term Holy Father?

Sorry, I don't invite arguments nor debates, but only give that which is already written in the scriptures as you and everyone can read for yourself. If it's your intention to cause division among the brothers and sisters over a certain religion then you are not going to well received. We are not here to argue and debate, but to discuss that of what and how we believe and there will always be disagreements. What we do with the disagreements is upon each of us and our actions towards one another. If what we say does not line up with scripture than it is only a mans doctrine and not the true doctrine of Christ.

 

[for_his_glory]

Why is the Pope called Holy Father? - Answers

Catholics refer to the pope as the "Holy Father". It is merely a title. Christians agree or disagree with whether this appropriate.Why Catholics use the term "Holy Father"He is called upon to practice exceptional sanctity in imitation of Jesus Whose office he serves. The pope is also the...

www.answers.com

Sorry, but no one other than Christ is the head of the Church. The pope is not the preeminence of the church as he claims to be and makes others bow down to him and kidd his ring when they have come to have an audience with him. Popes are not called of God, but are elected by the College of Cardinals being the church's most senior officials who are appointed by the Pope.

Colossians 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: 13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

 

[Mungo]

Yes I saw it, but since I have problems with reading comprehension I didn't understand what you meant by it. 2

Basically there are two different Greek words involved which are both translated by the same word - 'call' - thus leading to misunderstandings

So 'calling' a priest 'father' does not mean the same thing that Jesus meant by 'call' no man father.

Added: It's a big problem with English. Words have multiple meanings and some times one meaning contradicts another (or the opposite means the same - work that one out ).

 

[Mungo]

Sorry, but no one other than Christ is the head of the Church. The pope is not the preeminence of the church as he claims to be and makes others bow down to him and kidd his ring when they have come to have an audience with him. Popes are not called of God, but are elected by the College of Cardinals being the church's most senior officials who are appointed by the Pope.

Colossians 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: 13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Absolutely Jesus is the head of the Church and we are his body. I agree with that scripture.

 

[jasonc]

I'm not pro Catholic ,but worship ?

Uhm David and kings God called righteous recirved worship,context being respect,its no different then if president trump were to enter a military base the post commander would be there to salute him .that's also done for officers,warrant officers and medal of honor recipients.only,the senior is saluted first,he returns a salute,the exception of reporting in formation,for pay to an officer .that's not an act of sin ,also in,the military one salutes the pledge in uniform , and during the national anthem.

Ironic ,my avatar is a Catholic church whose place and history is well known.I have attended mass at a few.I have issues with Catholic doctrine but with a broad term as protestant,this isn't what the didache was about either .

Why Churches Should Ditch Projector Screens And Bring Back Hymnals

Christians need to understand that relying on screens and other technology is not leading to better worship, it’s ruining it.

thefederalist.com

 

[jasonc]

Local Catholic church aka st.Helens is tied to one father who traveled by canoe to minister in South Brevard and three parishes were born from that ,these being older then the Baptist churches,save one .irc

 

[HeIsRisen2018]

Basically there are two different Greek words involved which are both translated by the same word - 'call' - thus leading to misunderstandings

So 'calling' a priest 'father' does not mean the same thing that Jesus meant by 'call' no man father.

Added: It's a big problem with English. Words have multiple meanings and some times one meaning contradicts another (or the opposite means the same - work that one out ).

Although it's true that words have multiple meanings what does that have to do with this? Who else could Jesus possibly have been referring to? Darth Vader?

 

[daninthelionsden]

Local Catholic church aka st.Helens is tied to one father who traveled by canoe to minister in South Brevard and three parishes were born from that ,these being older then the Baptist churches,save one .irc

I will always be grateful to the Catholic Church for allowing the Evangelist, Joe Donato, to speak there in a church in Corpus Christi. I certainly believe there are devoted Christians in any denomination. I just don't care for how the Catholic Church is administered(Temple Model) because it leaves the door wide open to corruption.

 

[for_his_glory]

Absolutely Jesus is the head of the Church and we are his body. I agree with that scripture.

Then why do you also agree with that article that the Pope/papa/father is the head of the church. You can't have it both ways.

 

[GodsGrace]

I thought this might be the best forum to post this question.

This morning on my way to work I was listening to an open forum program called, "Seize The Day" hosted by Gus Lloyd on The Catholic Channel on Sirius radio. I listen in quite often as I find it interesting, even though I do find disagreement with much of the Catholic teaching. Gus Lloyd is actually a former Protestant converted to Catholicism.

The topic this morning was about one of the Catholic Cardinals calling into question the practice of referring to the Catholic priests as "Father." This Cardinal, whose name eludes me at the moment, is supposedly raising questions about whether or not this is truly right. Gus Lloyd made it quite clear that he is adamantly not open to considering changing the practice, which made it difficult for anyone siding with the Cardinal to have a reasonable discussion with him.

At any rate, I thought it would be interesting to understand where or when the CC began using this term when referring to the priests. As I understand it and I personally believe most Protestants will cite Matthew 23:9 where Jesus instructed that we should call no man on earth our father. But when I review the text in context, it seems that there may be more to it than that for He also gave other instructions that I never noticed before. Here's the text from the NKJV, chapter 23, v1-10.

1 Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples, 2 saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do. 4 For they bind heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. 5 But all their works they do to be seen by men. They make their phylacteries broad and enlarge the borders of their garments. 6 They love the best places at feasts, the best seats in the synagogues, 7 greetings in the marketplaces, and to be called by men, ‘Rabbi, Rabbi.’ 8 But you, do not be called ‘Rabbi’; for One is your Teacher, the Christ, and you are all brethren. 9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. 10 And do not be called teachers; for One is your Teacher, the Christ."

It's interesting that He also instructs that we are not to be called teachers. When I was leading the high school Bible study at our church, I personally did not feel comfortable when someone referred to me as teacher or the teacher. I would tell them that I was not qualified to claim that title and that I looked at our class as a shared learning experience. In other words, God's word was our teacher and we were learning together. For some reason, until I looked up the Scripture I posted above, I hadn't notice it before that Jesus says we are not to be called teachers. Maybe this is why I felt so uncomfortable when it happened.

So what do you all think about this? I would also like to hear from our Catholic brothers and/or sisters.

Hi WIP,

The only thing I remember about why priests are called "father" is because it refers to a teacher of spiritual matters, as so does Rabbi and Teacher.

I looked around on the net and found the following to be interesting:

Jesus is addressing the hypocrisy of the scribes and the Pharisees â the learned religious leaders of Judaism. Our Lord castigates them for not providing good example; for creating onerous spiritual burdens for others with their various rules and regulations; for being haughty in exercising their office and for promoting themselves by looking for places of honor, seeking marks of respect and wearing ostentatious symbols. Basically, the scribes and Pharisees had forgotten that they were called to serve the Lord and those entrusted to their care with humility and generous spirit.

Given that context, Jesus says not to call anyone on earth by the title, "Rabbi," "Father" or "Teacher," in the sense of arrogating to oneself an authority which rests with God and of forgetting the responsibility of the title. Yes, as Jesus said, only the heavenly Father is the true Father, and the Messiah, the true teacher and rabbi.

Nevertheless, we do use these titles in common parlance: We call those who instruct us and others "teacher"; our male parent "father"; and Jewish religious leaders "rabbi." Especially in a religious sense, those who serve the Lord and represent His authority, as a teacher, parent and especially a priest, must be mindful of exercising it diligently, humbly and courageously. To use this authority for self-aggrandizement is pure hypocrisy. Jesus said at the end of this passage, "Whoever exalts himself shall be humbled, but whoever humbles himself shall be exalted."

Since the earliest times of our Church, we have used the title "Father" for religious leaders.

Bishops, who are the shepherds of the local Church community and the authentic teachers of the faith, were given the title "Father." Actually, until about the year 400, a bishop was called "papa" for Father; this title was then restricted solely to addressing the Bishop of Rome, the successor of St. Peter, and in English was rendered "pope."

In an early form of his rule, St. Benedict (d. c. 547) designated the title to spiritual confessors, since they were the guardians of souls. Moreover, the word "abbot," denoting the leader in faith of the monastic community, is derived from the word abba, the Aramaic Hebrew word for father, but in the very familiar sense of "daddy."

Later, in the Middle Ages, the term "father" was used to address the mendicant friars â like the Franciscans and Dominicans â since by their preaching, teaching and charitable works they cared for the spiritual and physical needs of all of God's children. In more modern times, the heads of male religious communities, or even those who participate in ecumenical councils such as Vatican II, are given the title "father." In the English-speaking world, addressing all priests as "Father" has become customary.

source: https://www.catholiceducation.org/e...s/why-do-we-call-catholic-priests-father.html

Will read the thread with interest.

 

[HeIsRisen2018]

Then why do you also agree with that article that the Pope/papa/father is the head of the church. You can't have it both ways.

Yeah, this isn't Hannah Montana. *Cues theme song and relives my childhood back when Miley Cyrus was somewhat normal. :')