Female Officers in the Early Church

[jerry63935]

I dunno

I’ve often found Scripture points towards male leadership in building th the church and family. Men who abuse church leadership positions can be dealt with sometimes even through the legal system when necessary. Fairly easy divorce laws make it possible for women to dissolve bad marriages legally and men can as well.

My real problem was seeing women lead Pentecostal churches. Did not go well. And yet…

The practice continues and grows. I kind of wonder honestly…keep in mind I’m a moderate socialist…the growth of female led churches isn’t a sign of long standing decline.

in reality the man is the leader . i have known of married women pastor and the husband sit under the wife. not really Bible

 

[jasonc]

A deacon and elder are not the same in most churches .

 

[jerry63935]

A deacon and elder are not the same in most churches .

not real familiar on elder but would play same role as deacon

 

[jasonc]

not real familiar on elder but would play same role as deacon

The words for elder ,pastor are synoumous .diakonos,Presbyteras, Bishop

 

[BB1956]

All well and good. My point was not that a church should differentiate. But in some churches, there is a differentiation, and some people in such churches reading this post might get confused by how the same word was traditionally used.

I think most churches have female deacons today, but some do not. The topic of deaconesses is far less controversial than the topic of female elders. But some archeological support clearly exists for female elders.

I understand that Paul refers to Phoebe as “a minister of the congregation that is in Cenchreae,” and this raises the question as to the sense in which the term diakonos (minister) is here used. Some translators view the term in an official sense and hence render it “deaconess." But the Scriptures make no provision for female ministerial servants. Goodspeed’s translation views the term in a general sense and translates it “helper.” But, Paul’s reference is evidently to something having to do with the spreading of the good news, the Christian ministry, and he was speaking of Phoebe as a female minister who was associated with the congregation in Cenchreae.(Compare Acts 2:17, 18)

Paul wrote his letter to the Romans from Corinth about the year 56 C.E., during his third missionary journey. He apparently entrusted the manuscript to Phoebe a member of the nearby Cenchreae congregation, who was traveling to Rome. (Romans 16:1, 2) In the scriptures we notice how warmly he recommends her to the brothers in Rome. In some way or other, she had defended many Christians, including Paul, perhaps during their travels via the busy seaport of Cenchreae. Paul instructed them to “welcome her in the Lord in a way worthy of the holy ones."

Phoebe served as “a defender of many.” The term translated “defender” (prostatis) has the basic sense of “protectress” or “succorer,” so that it implies not mere cordiality but a coming to the aid of others who are in need. It may also be rendered “patroness.” Phoebe’s freedom to travel and to render notable service in the congregation may indicate that she was a widow and possibly a woman of some material wealth. So, she may have been in position to use influence in the community in behalf of Christians who were being wrongly accused, defending them in this way; or she may have provided refuge for them in time of danger, serving as a protectress. The scriptures give no details on this.

 

[Hopeful]

I understand that Paul refers to Phoebe as “a minister of the congregation that is in Cenchreae,” and this raises the question as to the sense in which the term diakonos (minister) is here used. Some translators view the term in an official sense and hence render it “deaconess." But the Scriptures make no provision for female ministerial servants. Goodspeed’s translation views the term in a general sense and translates it “helper.” But, Paul’s reference is evidently to something having to do with the spreading of the good news, the Christian ministry, and he was speaking of Phoebe as a female minister who was associated with the congregation in Cenchreae.(Compare Acts 2:17, 18)

Paul wrote his letter to the Romans from Corinth about the year 56 C.E., during his third missionary journey. He apparently entrusted the manuscript to Phoebe a member of the nearby Cenchreae congregation, who was traveling to Rome. (Romans 16:1, 2) In the scriptures we notice how warmly he recommends her to the brothers in Rome. In some way or other, she had defended many Christians, including Paul, perhaps during their travels via the busy seaport of Cenchreae. Paul instructed them to “welcome her in the Lord in a way worthy of the holy ones."

Phoebe served as “a defender of many.” The term translated “defender” (prostatis) has the basic sense of “protectress” or “succorer,” so that it implies not mere cordiality but a coming to the aid of others who are in need. It may also be rendered “patroness.” Phoebe’s freedom to travel and to render notable service in the congregation may indicate that she was a widow and possibly a woman of some material wealth. So, she may have been in position to use influence in the community in behalf of Christians who were being wrongly accused, defending them in this way; or she may have provided refuge for them in time of danger, serving as a protectress. The scriptures give no details on this.

You started out with a false quote of Paul's Rom 16:1-2.
It is written..."I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea:
2 That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succourer of many, and of myself also."
This is the only mention of her in the bible.
She would be appalled by the elevation of her service to the church that your "translations' collude to cause.

 

[BB1956]

You started out with a false quote of Paul's Rom 16:1-2.
It is written..."I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea:
2 That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succourer of many, and of myself also."
This is the only mention of her in the bible.
She would be appalled by the elevation of her service to the church that your "translations' collude to cause.

My copy of the scriptures say at Romans 16:1, 2: "I am introducing to you Phoeʹbe, our sister, who is a minister of the congregation that is in Cenʹchre·ae, so that you may welcome her in the Lord in a way worthy of the holy ones and give her whatever help she may need, for she herself also proved to be a defender of many, including me."
So I don't agree that I started out with a false quote of Paul at Roman 16:15, 16. The Greek word, diakonos in this scripture is translated minister. Women can go out and speak to people about God and his kingdom in whatever community they're living in. This is a minister. I'm not calling her a minister in the sense of a preacher or deacon who has an authoritive position in a church

 

[WIP]

Reminder: When quoting Scripture please provide the Chapter, verse, and translation so others may know where it is coming from. Also, except for a very few, most translations are not public domain so it is important to proved the reference legally.

 

[BB1956]

Reminder: When quoting Scripture please provide the Chapter, verse, and translation so others may know where it is coming from. Also, except for a very few, most translations are not public domain so it is important to proved the reference legally.

If you talking about me is was just a mistake

 

[Hopeful]

My copy of the scriptures say at Romans 16:1, 2: "I am introducing to you Phoeʹbe, our sister, who is a minister of the congregation that is in Cenʹchre·ae, so that you may welcome her in the Lord in a way worthy of the holy ones and give her whatever help she may need, for she herself also proved to be a defender of many, including me."
So I don't agree that I started out with a false quote of Paul at Roman 16:15, 16. The Greek word, diakonos in this scripture is translated minister. Women can go out and speak to people about God and his kingdom in whatever community they're living in. This is a minister. I'm not calling her a minister in the sense of a preacher or deacon who has an authoritive position in a church

What version of the bible are you using?

 

[for_his_glory]

You started out with a false quote of Paul's Rom 16:1-2.
It is written..."I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea:
2 That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succourer of many, and of myself also."
This is the only mention of her in the bible.
She would be appalled by the elevation of her service to the church that your "translations' collude to cause.

Pheobe (Romans 16:1-2): This woman was a deaconess of the church in Cenchrea, who was beloved of Paul and many other Christians for the help she gave to them. She filled an important position of leadership. It would be a difficult stretch of the imagination to say that this woman fulfilled her duties without ever speaking in the church!


​

 

[Hopeful]

Pheobe (Romans 16:1-2): This woman was a deaconess of the church in Cenchrea,​

That is not what the bible says.
What are the requirements to be a deacon?
One is listed in 1 Tim 3:12..."Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well."
Did Phebe have a wife?

who was beloved of Paul and many other Christians for the help she gave to them. She filled an important position of leadership.​

That is not what the bible says.

It would be a difficult stretch of the imagination to say that this woman fulfilled her duties without ever speaking in the church!​

"Speaking" is quite a stretch from teaching or leading.

 

[for_his_glory]

That is not what the bible says.
What are the requirements to be a deacon?
One is listed in 1 Tim 3:12..."Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well."
Did Phebe have a wife?

That is not what the bible says.

"Speaking" is quite a stretch from teaching or leading.

It's really not worth arguing this. God will use whoever He wants for the purpose of His ministry here on earth just as He used me in the prison ministry years ago to teach the male inmates.

 

[BB1956]

Pheobe (Romans 16:1-2): This woman was a deaconess of the church in Cenchrea, who was beloved of Paul and many other Christians for the help she gave to them. She filled an important position of leadership. It would be a difficult stretch of the imagination to say that this woman fulfilled her duties without ever speaking in the church!


​

I don't go beyond what scripture shows and there is no indication in the Scriptures that women were appointed to office as were those men who were designated as diakonoi.
The apostle Paul was inspired to write at 1 Timothy 2:12- "I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man, but she is to remain silent."
So those who translate diakonoi as deaconess are incorrect. women didn't have authority over men in the congregation(Church)

 

[for_his_glory]

I understand that Paul refers to Phoebe as “a minister of the congregation that is in Cenchreae,” and this raises the question as to the sense in which the term diakonos (minister) is here used. Some translators view the term in an official sense and hence render it “deaconess." But the Scriptures make no provision for female ministerial servants. Goodspeed’s translation views the term in a general sense and translates it “helper.” But, Paul’s reference is evidently to something having to do with the spreading of the good news, the Christian ministry, and he was speaking of Phoebe as a female minister who was associated with the congregation in Cenchreae.(Compare Acts 2:17, 18)

Paul wrote his letter to the Romans from Corinth about the year 56 C.E., during his third missionary journey. He apparently entrusted the manuscript to Phoebe a member of the nearby Cenchreae congregation, who was traveling to Rome. (Romans 16:1, 2) In the scriptures we notice how warmly he recommends her to the brothers in Rome. In some way or other, she had defended many Christians, including Paul, perhaps during their travels via the busy seaport of Cenchreae. Paul instructed them to “welcome her in the Lord in a way worthy of the holy ones."

Phoebe served as “a defender of many.” The term translated “defender” (prostatis) has the basic sense of “protectress” or “succorer,” so that it implies not mere cordiality but a coming to the aid of others who are in need. It may also be rendered “patroness.” Phoebe’s freedom to travel and to render notable service in the congregation may indicate that she was a widow and possibly a woman of some material wealth. So, she may have been in position to use influence in the community in behalf of Christians who were being wrongly accused, defending them in this way; or she may have provided refuge for them in time of danger, serving as a protectress. The scriptures give no details on this.

Just wanted to let you know if you see a line across a members name like that of T.E. Smith that means they have been banned from CF.

 

[for_his_glory]

I don't go beyond what scripture shows and there is no indication in the Scriptures that women were appointed to office as were those men who were designated as diakonoi.
The apostle Paul was inspired to write at 1 Timothy 2:12- "I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man, but she is to remain silent."
So those who translate diakonoi as deaconess are incorrect. women didn't have authority over men in the congregation(Church)

Please go back and read my posts #68, 73, 77, 82, 91 as I have already explained about female officers in the Church.

 

[Edward]

Just wanted to let you know if you see a line across a members name like that of T.E. Smith that means they have been banned from CF.

You keep saying that we can see that a line through his name means he's banned, but I don't see any line through his name and never have. I'm not sure what that means, but I can't see it.

 

[Tenchi]

Contrary to the narrative pushed by many more conservative Christian denominations, evidence indicates that there were indeed women who served as church officers in the early church. This could include elders, official teachers, and deaconesses.

Deaconesses, perhaps (. And it seems reasonable to think women were involved in spiritual teaching (Acts 18:26). But there is no biblical basis whatever for asserting that women occupied the role of Elder/Bishop/Pastor/Overseer against every qualifying description and explicit prohibition concerning the role.

1 Timothy 3:1-7 (NASB)
1 It is a trustworthy statement: if any man aspires to the office of overseer, it is a fine work he desires to do.
2 An overseer, then, must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, prudent, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,
3 not addicted to wine or pugnacious, but gentle, peaceable, free from the love of money.
4 He must be one who manages his own household well, keeping his children under control with all dignity
5 (but if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how will he take care of the church of God?),
6 and not a new convert, so that he will not become conceited and fall into the condemnation incurred by the devil.
7 And he must have a good reputation with those outside the church, so that he will not fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

Titus 1:5-9 (NASB)
5 For this reason I left you in Crete, that you would set in order what remains and appoint elders in every city as I directed you,
6 namely, if any man is above reproach, the husband of one wife, having children who believe, not accused of dissipation or rebellion.
7 For the overseer must be above reproach as God's steward, not self-willed, not quick-tempered, not addicted to wine, not pugnacious, not fond of sordid gain,
8 but hospitable, loving what is good, sensible, just, devout, self-controlled,
9 holding fast the faithful word which is in accordance with the teaching, so that he will be able both to exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict.

Ephesians 5:22-25 (NASB)
22 Wives, be subject to your own husbands, as to the Lord.
23 For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body.
24 But as the church is subject to Christ, so also the wives ought to be to their husbands in everything.
25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her,

1 Timothy 2:11-14 (NASB)
11 A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness.
12 But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet.
13 For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve.
14 And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.

Romans 16:1-2​

"I commend to you our sister Phoebe, who is a minister (diakonos) of the church at Cenchraae. I beg you to give her a Christian welcome, as the saints should and to assist her in any matter in which she may have need of you. For she herself has been made an overseer (prostatis) to many people, including myself."

Diakonos is often transliterated as "deacon", but this obscures the original meaning of a "minister". How firmly fixed this title was is quite unclear due to the early date of Romans, likely CE 55-59. At the inaugural stage in the church's formation, the office was probably not clearly defined. Nevertheless, her role likely included preaching and evangelism.

Prostatis could mean a "leader", often in a religious context, and later took on the meaning of a "patron." It is the noun form of the verb in 1 Timothy 3:4: "He must manage his own household well."

Romans 16:1 (NASB)
1 I commend to you our sister Phoebe, who is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea;

In the great majority of English Bible versions, diakonos is rendered servant in this verse, not minister. Deacon(ess) is the second most common rendering of diakonos in verse 1. I could actually discover only one translation (Darby) that rendered diakonos as minister (noun). In any case, "minister" more often than not in Scripture means "to serve the needs of"; it does not refer to an office of the Church, as in the case of Elder/Bishop/Overseer/Pastor.

Romans 16:2 (NASB)
2 that you receive her in the Lord in a manner worthy of the saints, and that you help her in whatever matter she may have need of you; for she herself has also been a helper of many, and of myself as well.

Again, in every English Bible translation I could examine (60+), prostatis in verse 2 is rendered benefactor, helper, succourer, patron, or assisted many. I could find no translation that rendered prostatis as overseer.

Defying your claim that the role of Elder was "probably not clearly defined," both Acts and Paul's writings offer very clear proof that the office of Elder was occupied solely by men.

Extrabiblical Evidence​

Women as Elders (presbutera or presbutis)​

• A mummy label dated to the second or third century Egypt lists the following: "Artemidoras, daughter of Mikkalos, fell asleep in the Lord, her mother Paniskiaines being an elder" (presbytera, feminine)."
  • Cahiers de Recherches de L’Institut de Papyrologie et d’Egyptologie de Lille 5 (1974) 264 no. 1115.
• An inscription reads: "A memorial for Ammio the elder" (presbytera, feminine). Found near Usak in modern Turkey (ancient Phrygia), before the time of Constantine.
  • Greek, Roman, and Byzantine Studies 16 (1975) 437-38.
• St. Cyprian writes of a female presbyter (elder) in Cappadocia in the mid-230s.
  • Epistle 75.10.5
• An epitaph for Epiktas the elder (presbutis,also feminine), found on Thera, a Greek island. Dated to the third or fourth century.
  • Bulletin de Correspondence Hellenique 101 (1977) 210, 212.
• An epitaph for Kale, the elder (presbutis, feminine once again) from Centuripae in Sicily, from the fourth or fifth century.
  • L’Annee Epigraphique (1975) 454.

None of these instances negate the plain prohibition of women fulfilling the role of Elder/Overseer/Bishop/Pastor in Scripture. If anything, they serve only as contradictions to God's word, as modern instances of female "pastors" do, not grounds for further defiance of the explicit declaration of Scripture.

 

[Free]

Just wanted to let you know if you see a line across a members name like that of T.E. Smith that means they have been banned from CF.

You keep saying that we can see that a line through his name means he's banned, but I don't see any line through his name and never have. I'm not sure what that means, but I can't see it.

I'm pretty sure it's only staff that can see that.

 

[Edward]

I'm pretty sure it's only staff that can see that.

But the man that FHG said that to is not staff, so why say that to him. I get it now though, only staff can see that.