Female Officers in the Early Church

[Free]

But the man that FHG said that to is not staff, so why say that to him. I get it now though, only staff can see that.

Some staff may not know this.

 

[for_his_glory]

But the man that FHG said that to is not staff, so why say that to him. I get it now though, only staff can see that.

I didn't know only the staff saw that line. I usually tell members that person was banned as they expect a response from them when they reply. It's all good.

 

[BB1956]

Just wanted to let you know if you see a line across a members name like that of T.E. Smith that means they have been banned from CF.

Ok, good to know.

 

[BB1956]

Please go back and read my posts #68, 73, 77, 82, 91 as I have already explained about female officers in the Church.

I never said that women couldn't prophesy or be prophets, which Deborah was called a prophetess, but she is also linked with Judge Barak, who was the one who primarily took the lead in delivering the people from oppression. So while I agree Deborah had a role in judging Israel, I see no reason to list her with the 12 men who clearly and primarily were especially ‘raised up’ as judges.

In 1 Corinthians chapter 14, Paul was discussing matters relating to meetings of the Christian congregation. He described what should be discussed at such meetings and recommended how they should be conducted. (1 Corinthians 14:1-6, 26-34) Further, he stressed the objective of Christian meetings, “that the congregation may receive upbuilding.” (1Corinthians 14:4, 5, 12, 26.)

Paul’s instruction to “keep silent” appears three times in 1 Corinthians chapter 14, each time, it is addressed to a different group in the congregation, but in all instances, it is given for the same reason, that “all things take place decently and by arrangement.(1Corinthians14:40)

First, Paul said: “If someone speaks in a tongue,(who prophesies) let it be limited to two or three at the most, and in turns; and let someone translate. But if there be no translator, let him/her keep silent in the congregation and speak to himself/herself and to God.” (1Corinthians 14:27, 28) That did not mean that such people were never to speak at meetings but that there were times when he/she should be silent. After all, the objective of the meetings was to upbuild one another, which would not be attained if he/she spoke in a language no one understood.

Second, Paul stated: “Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others discern the meaning. But if there is a revelation to another one while sitting there, let the first one keep silent.” This meant, not that the first prophet was to refrain from speaking at meetings, but that he/she had to be silent at times. Then the one having the miraculous revelation could address the congregation, and the objective of the meeting, that “all be encouraged," would be achieved.(1 Corinthians 14:26, 29-31)

Third, Paul addressed Christian women only, stating: “Let the women keep silent in the congregations, for it is not permitted for them to speak, but let them be in subjection.” (1 Corinthians 14:34) Why did Paul give this command to sisters? To preserve order in the congregation. He says: “If, then, they want to learn something, let them question their own husbands at home, for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in a congregation.”(1 Corinthians14:35)

Perhaps some sisters were challenging what was said in the congregation. Paul’s counsel helped sisters to shun such a disorderly spirit and humbly accept their position within YHWH God's headship arrangement, particularly with regard to their husbands. (1Corinthians 11:3) In addition, by keeping silent, sisters would show that they did not aspire to be teachers in the congregation. When he wrote to Timothy, Paul showed that it would be improper for a woman to assume the role of teacher: “I do not permit a woman to teach, or to exercise authority over a man, but to be in silence.”(1 Timothy 2:12)

That doesn't mean that a Christian woman must never speak during a congregation meeting. In Paul’s day, there were occasions when Christian women, perhaps impelled by holy spirit, prayed or prophesied in the congregation. On such occasions, they acknowledged their position by wearing a head covering.a (1Corinthians 11:5) Further, in Paul’s day and today, sisters along with brothers are urged to make a public declaration of their hope. (Hebrews 10:23-25) Besides doing this in the field ministry, sisters declare their hope and encourage others during congregation meetings by giving well-thought-out comments when invited to do so and by accepting assignments to share in demonstrations or student talks.

So, Christian women “keep silent” by refraining from trying to assume the role of a male and instruct the congregation. They do not raise argumentative questions that could challenge the authority of those who teach. By fulfilling their proper role in the congregation, Christian sisters greatly contribute toward an atmosphere of peace in which “all things at congregation meetings, take place for upbuilding.” (1Corinthians 14:26, 33.)

When it comes to Eve, first that must be considered, is that Adam and Eve were a family, and Adam was the head of that family. Eve ignored the authority that Adam had in the family when she ate from the forbidden tree. She didn't once, even think about talking to her husband first, before she made a decision concerning eating of the forbidden tree, a decision which would affect them both, as a family.
When it comes to husbands dominating their wifes. When God said that Adam would “dominate” his wife, God was not indicating his approval of the subjugation of woman by man. (Genesis 3:16) He was simply foretelling the sad consequences of sin on the first couple. Eve ignore her husbands authority as head if the family and brought this upon women.

 

[for_his_glory]

I never said that women couldn't prophesy or be prophets, which Deborah was called a prophetess, but she is also linked with Judge Barak, who was the one who primarily took the lead in delivering the people from oppression. So while I agree Deborah had a role in judging Israel, I see no reason to list her with the 12 men who clearly and primarily were especially ‘raised up’ as judges.

In 1 Corinthians chapter 14, Paul was discussing matters relating to meetings of the Christian congregation. He described what should be discussed at such meetings and recommended how they should be conducted. (1 Corinthians 14:1-6, 26-34) Further, he stressed the objective of Christian meetings, “that the congregation may receive upbuilding.” (1Corinthians 14:4, 5, 12, 26.)

Paul’s instruction to “keep silent” appears three times in 1 Corinthians chapter 14, each time, it is addressed to a different group in the congregation, but in all instances, it is given for the same reason, that “all things take place decently and by arrangement.(1Corinthians14:40)

First, Paul said: “If someone speaks in a tongue,(who prophesies) let it be limited to two or three at the most, and in turns; and let someone translate. But if there be no translator, let him/her keep silent in the congregation and speak to himself/herself and to God.” (1Corinthians 14:27, 28) That did not mean that such people were never to speak at meetings but that there were times when he/she should be silent. After all, the objective of the meetings was to upbuild one another, which would not be attained if he/she spoke in a language no one understood.

Second, Paul stated: “Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others discern the meaning. But if there is a revelation to another one while sitting there, let the first one keep silent.” This meant, not that the first prophet was to refrain from speaking at meetings, but that he/she had to be silent at times. Then the one having the miraculous revelation could address the congregation, and the objective of the meeting, that “all be encouraged," would be achieved.(1 Corinthians 14:26, 29-31)

Third, Paul addressed Christian women only, stating: “Let the women keep silent in the congregations, for it is not permitted for them to speak, but let them be in subjection.” (1 Corinthians 14:34) Why did Paul give this command to sisters? To preserve order in the congregation. He says: “If, then, they want to learn something, let them question their own husbands at home, for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in a congregation.”(1 Corinthians14:35)

Perhaps some sisters were challenging what was said in the congregation. Paul’s counsel helped sisters to shun such a disorderly spirit and humbly accept their position within YHWH God's headship arrangement, particularly with regard to their husbands. (1Corinthians 11:3) In addition, by keeping silent, sisters would show that they did not aspire to be teachers in the congregation. When he wrote to Timothy, Paul showed that it would be improper for a woman to assume the role of teacher: “I do not permit a woman to teach, or to exercise authority over a man, but to be in silence.”(1 Timothy 2:12)

That doesn't mean that a Christian woman must never speak during a congregation meeting. In Paul’s day, there were occasions when Christian women, perhaps impelled by holy spirit, prayed or prophesied in the congregation. On such occasions, they acknowledged their position by wearing a head covering.a (1Corinthians 11:5) Further, in Paul’s day and today, sisters along with brothers are urged to make a public declaration of their hope. (Hebrews 10:23-25) Besides doing this in the field ministry, sisters declare their hope and encourage others during congregation meetings by giving well-thought-out comments when invited to do so and by accepting assignments to share in demonstrations or student talks.

So, Christian women “keep silent” by refraining from trying to assume the role of a male and instruct the congregation. They do not raise argumentative questions that could challenge the authority of those who teach. By fulfilling their proper role in the congregation, Christian sisters greatly contribute toward an atmosphere of peace in which “all things at congregation meetings, take place for upbuilding.” (1Corinthians 14:26, 33.)

When it comes to Eve, first that must be considered, is that Adam and Eve were a family, and Adam was the head of that family. Eve ignored the authority that Adam had in the family when she ate from the forbidden tree. She didn't once, even think about talking to her husband first, before she made a decision concerning eating of the forbidden tree, a decision which would affect them both, as a family.
When it comes to husbands dominating their wifes. When God said that Adam would “dominate” his wife, God was not indicating his approval of the subjugation of woman by man. (Genesis 3:16) He was simply foretelling the sad consequences of sin on the first couple. Eve ignore her husbands authority as head if the family and brought this upon women.

Like I said, I have given my understanding in all those post I gave and have nothing more to add to this topic. Let each believe how they want as I see no absolutes within this.

 

[Yahalam]

If anyone desire be be an elder ,he or she must be married to one husband .
Kinda hard to miss that problem especially when it says they must rule their house well.

In context women didn't rule the house in Greco Roman culture.if I wanted to talk business with petrus,Lucius I talked to him .not his wife .

Misquote bro, that is office of the episkopos or overseer:

1Ti 3:1* This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.

The elder is simply the older people responsible for their own household be they male or female the overseer is the husband of one wife.

 

[jasonc]

Misquote bro, that is office of the episkopos or overseer:

1Ti 3:1* This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.

The elder is simply the older people responsible for their own household be they male or female the overseer is the husband of one wife.

No the Greek is the same .I'm older then a few elders in my church when they select them.

 

[JLB]

how can you prove that? God put the man in charge once again that does not put the women under men feet. the leadership is to be the man im sorry. just how it was designed

I totally agree that the man is the head of his wife. However, when this becomes “control” to the point of abuse, it’s not what God intended.

Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body. Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything.
Ephesians 5:22-24

In today’s culture, especially in America, there is a Satanic agenda to undermine this God given authority structure by women rising to elevate themselves over the man, so as to “divide“ the marriages and weaken the identity of the family unit.

Liberalism has done much damage to the identity of the family unit.


However, there is a balance to all things.


As far as how it was “designed” we need only look to the first words spoken to mankind, by God.


Then God blessed them, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion… Genesis 1:28


God blessed them, male and female.

God said to them, male and female… have dominion.


Dominion was given to them, male and female, not just ”him”.


It’s no wonder that Satan is so desperate to divide marriages and to undermine the God given dynamic authority He gave to the husband and wife.

It’s no wonder Satan has so desperately tried to distort the God given image of male and female to mankind.




JLB

 

[Yahalam]

No the Greek is the same .I'm older then a few elders in my church when they select them.

Jasconc, the greek references several words:
1. Elders or presbuteros ,

2. overseers (bishops) which is episkopos

3. Deacons and ministers which is diakoneos

These words are separate and not synonyms, anyone saying otherwise is dealing in false doctrine,


Ga 1:9*..... If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.



Your church and all churches including mine so I am there with you, but they call the elected leaders "elders" but that is actually a false doctrine, they were already elders, thus the devise used is to deceive and is a sophistic use of the language that though generally done in innocence it nevertheless tends to deceive and cheat both the speaker and the hearer. Your selected "elders" became a biblical "elders" when they became responsible for their children. When your church "selected" them they should have called them deacons or ministers. Those are the elected people of the local church according to scripture.

 

[jasonc]

Jasconc, the greek references several words:
1. Elders or presbuteros ,

2. overseers (bishops) which is episkopos

3. Deacons and ministers which is diakoneos

These words are separate and not synonyms, anyone saying otherwise is dealing in false doctrine,


Ga 1:9*..... If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.



Your church and all churches including mine so I am there with you, but they call the elected leaders "elders" but that is actually a false doctrine, they were already elders, thus the devise used is to deceive and is a sophistic use of the language that though generally done in innocence it nevertheless tends to deceive and cheat both the speaker and the hearer. Your selected "elders" became a biblical "elders" when they became responsible for their children. When your church "selected" them they should have called them deacons or ministers. Those are the elected people of the local church according to scripture.

So when you state it this way every man is supposed to be able to teach?

Seriously .

The calling of the for elder is not a deacon because they can be a woman .

My church uses the word presbytery from that .a pastor is also similar.

Sorry not all married persons are automatically elders simply by marriage .

I have been married longer then the deacon and elder in my church .he is but 26 .
I have been married 22 years .

Yet in some matters this is what is called .God gifts .

 

[jasonc]

What is a bishop, biblically speaking? | GotQuestions.org

What is a bishop, biblically speaking? Is a bishop the same thing as an elder or overseer?

www.gotquestions.org

 

[jasonc]

I'm not gifted to teach .I have no problems speaking to crowds and learned how to train troops but Im not a gifted person in that .I don't have the love for it .it flows naturally from those that do it.

I prefer not to .I will correct .

Aside from the anti people problem I have which is a thing I need to change that won't make me a teacher

 

[Yahalam]

So when you state it this way every man is supposed to be able to teach?

Seriously .

The calling of the for elder is not a deacon because they can be a woman .

My church uses the word presbytery from that .a pastor is also similar.

Sorry not all married persons are automatically elders simply by marriage .

I have been married longer then the deacon and elder in my church .he is but 26 .
I have been married 22 years .

Yet in some matters this is what is called .God gifts .

It would be tough to understand the true way to run a church because the present leadership would never allow it. The knowledge of the right way is a blessing, even if not obtainable because of the wolves (sometimes they are just shepherds) in charge now.


Ac 20:29* For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

But clear knowledge cannot be obtained without a clear understanding of who the elders are, because the elders are to feed the church:

1 pe 5:1* ¶ The elders which are among you .......2* Feed the flock of God which is among you,

If you quit trying to judge the word and just let it say what it says! The rest falls into place:


1Co 14:34* Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

So it is the elders that are men, because women are elders but are to be silent regarding teaching in the churches.

Double hounor to the ones that rule their house well!

You take the elders that are not women, and that are parents of faithful children,

 

[Yahalam]

I'm not gifted to teach .I have no problems speaking to crowds and learned how to train troops but Im not a gifted person in that .I don't have the love for it .it flows naturally from those that do it.

I prefer not to .I will correct .

Aside from the anti people problem I have which is a thing I need to change that won't make me a teacher

Me too, but gifts nevertheless or perhaps "notwithstanding", are not a perquisite for obedience. There is allowance in scripture for gifted teachers and preachers, but they are not necessarily in authority. The church in scripture is not a corporation, but a trust, and the trustees are the ones described as "bishops". The enemy has clouded the way to do it until the truth is evil spoken of:

Any (and all) older men that are willing and have a desire, if they have children that have faith,

titus 1:

5* ¶ For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:


6* ¶ If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.


7* For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;


8* But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate;


9* Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.

Notice the word gainsayer? At the risk of sounding crass, if one says for gain would he not be gainsaying? Paul clearly taught that the ministry is not paid, it is brought by men in the church that are willing to take time to do the work without pay for doing so, if they can't afford to, then that is okay, it is better to take care of their own family.


1Co 9:18* What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel.

So we are all stuck with a church that is ran by paid preachers corrupting the true authority for filthy lucres sake!

 

[Highway54]

Contrary to the narrative pushed by many more conservative Christian denominations, evidence indicates that there were indeed women who served as church officers in the early church. This could include elders, official teachers, and deaconesses.

Romans 16:1-2​

"I commend to you our sister Phoebe, who is a minister (diakonos) of the church at Cenchraae. I beg you to give her a Christian welcome, as the saints should and to assist her in any matter in which she may have need of you. For she herself has been made an overseer (prostatis) to many people, including myself."

Diakonos is often transliterated as "deacon", but this obscures the original meaning of a "minister". How firmly fixed this title was is quite unclear due to the early date of Romans, likely CE 55-59. At the inaugural stage in the church's formation, the office was probably not clearly defined. Nevertheless, her role likely included preaching and evangelism.

Prostatis could mean a "leader", often in a religious context, and later took on the meaning of a "patron." It is the noun form of the verb in 1 Timothy 3:4: "He must manage his own household well."

Extrabiblical Evidence​

Women as Elders (presbutera or presbutis)​

• A mummy label dated to the second or third century Egypt lists the following: "Artemidoras, daughter of Mikkalos, fell asleep in the Lord, her mother Paniskiaines being an elder" (presbytera, feminine)."
  • Cahiers de Recherches de L’Institut de Papyrologie et d’Egyptologie de Lille 5 (1974) 264 no. 1115.
• An inscription reads: "A memorial for Ammio the elder" (presbytera, feminine). Found near Usak in modern Turkey (ancient Phrygia), before the time of Constantine.
  • Greek, Roman, and Byzantine Studies 16 (1975) 437-38.
• St. Cyprian writes of a female presbyter (elder) in Cappadocia in the mid-230s.
  • Epistle 75.10.5
• An epitaph for Epiktas the elder (presbutis,also feminine), found on Thera, a Greek island. Dated to the third or fourth century.
  • Bulletin de Correspondence Hellenique 101 (1977) 210, 212.
• An epitaph for Kale, the elder (presbutis, feminine once again) from Centuripae in Sicily, from the fourth or fifth century.
  • L’Annee Epigraphique (1975) 454.

A Woman as an Official Teacher​

• A papyrus from Egypt, dated to the fourth century, twice speaks twice of Kyria the teacher (using the word didaskalos).
  • ZPE 18 [1975] 317-23.

Women as Deacons​

Please note that the term "deaconess" was a late development, and the masculine form was originally used to refer to female deacons as well. The masculine form continued to be in use for female deacons even after a feminine form was adopted.

• Pliny wrote of slave women who were called ministrae. These ministers served in likely the same office as a deacon. This letter can be conclusively dated to 108 CE, and it was written to the Emperor Trajan concerning the Christians of Cappadocia.
  • Epistle 10.96.6.
• Patrai of Achaia (from the early Christian period): "The deacon (diakonos) Agrippiane (feminine), most beloved of God, provided the mosaic in fulfillment of a vow."
  • Supplementum Epigraphicum Graecum 29, (1978), 425.
• A tombstone from Melos, inscribed at the start of the fourth century, mentions a mother and her children, and all the children held offices in the church. The titles are given in descending order of importance.
  • Elders (presbyteroi)
    • Asklepis (possibly a female name)
    • Elpizon
    • Asklepiodotos
  • Deacon (diakonos)
    • Agliasis (a woman)
  • Order of virgins
    • Eutylchia and Klaudiana
  • Reference: M. Guarducci, Epigrafia greca, IV, Rome: 1978, 368-70.
• An inscription on the Mount of Olives, dated from the fourth century, reads: "Here lies the slave and bride of Christ, Sophia the deacon (diakonos), the second Phoebe, who fell asleep in peace on the 21st of the month of March during the indiction..." but at this point the stone breaks off.
• Matrona the deacon (diakonos), from Stobi, Macedonia, dated to the fourth or fifth century; she was ordained by a bishop.
  • Dr. G. H. R. Horsley, ed., New Documents Illustrating Early Christianity, Sydney, 1977, 109.
• An epitaph at Delphi from the first part of the fifth century was made for the deaconess (diakonissa) Athanasia.
  • Guarducci, IV. 345-47 (Delphi, V; fig. 99).
• A gravestone on Mt. Hymettos from the late Imperial period says, "Nekagore the deaconess lies here."
  • IG, III 2, x.3527.
• "Eugenia the deacon (diakonos)", from Kirazli in Bithynia, in the Imperial period.
  • Zeitschrift fur Papyrologie und Epigraphik 18 (1975) 46 (Kirazli late Imperial).
• "Maria the deacon (diakonos)", from Cappadocia in the sixth century.
  • Supplementum Epigraphicum Graecum 27 (1978) 948a.

I at first thought you had strong evidence with your post of Rom 16:1,2 but after researching it found that it was weak. Secular information external from the Bible should not be used for doctrinal issues.

It is very true women are a large army for God Ps 68:11. They do more than most of us men in spreading the good news of the Kingdom to others. But they do not hold position such as deacon or elder in the congregation scripturally, at least from what I see.

 

[Yahalam]

12* Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.

 

[jaybo]

Why, in the 21st Century CE in the US and other Western societies, are some still regarding women in the same light as they did First Century society? A woman with a PhD in theology has nothing in common with a teenager of twenty centuries ago.

Or another way of looking at the situation: why does anyone turn the writing of the New Testament into the equivalent of Old Testament law?

Some women, even in the First Century, were leaders of the churches, apostles, etc.

 

[Yahalam]

Why, in the 21st Century CE in the US and other Western societies, are some still regarding women in the same light as they did First Century society? A woman with a PhD in theology has nothing in common with a teenager of twenty centuries ago.

Or another way of looking at the situation: why does anyone turn the writing of the New Testament into the equivalent of Old Testament law?

Some women, even in the First Century, were leaders of the churches, apostles, etc.

Western society stinks, God intended women to marry, and have children! Professional women are not sinning, but they are missing the point of life that God has for them. All my children with children are doing "stay at home mom" as we did for them. Our society has burned our families and turned us into work-mongers. Our taxes and fake money have so skewed common sense as to warp normal to a new meaning.

1Ti 5:14* I will therefore that the younger women marry, bear children, guide the house, give none occasion to the adversary to speak reproachfully.

 

[Welshlady38]

There are also many quotes in the bible about men and women being equals. Equality means the same rights and equal choices. By excluding women from leadership roles in the church, that is NOT equality. In the Anglican Church I attend, there is a women priest who leads the services sometimes and she’s amazing. In fact, she does it a lot better than the male priest who leads most of them.

 

[Welshlady38]

Western society stinks, God intended women to marry, and have children! Professional women are not sinning, but they are missing the point of life that God has for them. All my children with children are doing "stay at home mom" as we did for them. Our society has burned our families and turned us into work-mongers. Our taxes and fake money have so skewed common sense as to warp normal to a new meaning.

1Ti 5:14* I will therefore that the younger women marry, bear children, guide the house, give none occasion to the adversary to speak reproachfully.

Yes, I could stay at home and purely focus on raising my children and doing housework etc…but god gave me a brain and quite an effective one at that, which I intend on using!