Flesh or sinful nature

[ezrider]

If you believe we have two natures, please provide scripture since I've never heard of this concept.

Ever read Corinthians before?

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Ever read Corinthians before?

John MacArthur teaches one nature and a whole deal of controversy goes with him.

 

[GodsGrace]

Are you saying that all those fine Christians that hang out in the Current Events and Politics forum commenting all day long consumed with the cares of this world, who speak evil of dignitaries and despise government; are you saying that that are not born again?

I believe I'm hearing YOU say this.
These words never came out of MY mouth.

And please refrain from putting them in there.
Are we here to determine who is saved and who is not?
I don't see God around anywhere.
The only one who could make that determination.

Or have I misunderstood your post?

 

[GodsGrace]

Ever read Corinthians before?

Maybe.
Maybe not.
The scripture please.

 

[ezrider]

If your carnal nature is leading you, you're not born again.
We have only ONE nature. The Sin Nature. It is either under submission or it is not.

If you believe we have two natures, please provide scripture since I've never heard of this concept.

W

2 Corinthians 4:16
For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.

Romans 7:21-25
I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Romans 8:1-3
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh.

1 Corinthians 15:42-44
So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

 

[GodsGrace]

2 Corinthians 4:16
For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.

Romans 7:21-25
I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Romans 8:1-3
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh.

1 Corinthians 15:42-44
So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

EZ
This is speaking to the MAN. The inner man, the outer man, that which is visible.
It's not referring to the sin nature. There is only one sin nature.
it's speaking about renewing our mind. Not following the flesh.
It's talking about the FLESH and the SPIRIT.

Please narrow down one scripture up there that speaks to the fact that we have TWO NATURES. A CARNAL NATURE AND A SPIRITUAL NATURE.

The scripture you've provided does not show me this.

W

 

[ezrider]

I believe I'm hearing YOU say this.
These words never came out of MY mouth.

And please refrain from putting them in there.
Are we here to determine who is saved and who is not?
I don't see God around anywhere.
The only one who could make that determination.

Or have I misunderstood your post?

I think you misunderstood my post. Maybe I will state it this way instead.

Do you think those who call themselves Christian, but concern themselves mostly with Politics and Currents Events forum and the cares of this world, do think they are spiritually minded or carnally mined. For those who post there often, do you think they more interested in the kingdoms of this world than they are the kingdom of God?

 

[GodsGrace]

I think you misunderstood my post. Maybe I will state it this way instead.

Do you think those who call themselves Christian, but concern themselves mostly with Politics and Currents Events forum and the cares of this world, do think they are spiritually minded or carnally mined. For those who post there often, do you think they more interested in the kingdoms of this world than they are the kingdom of God?

Okay. I see what you mean.
I'll speak for myself.
I also post there at times because I'm in the midst of what they talk about.
I consider myself to be a spiritual person. However, this does not help me in dealing with new problems that have arisen here. Which still have to be dealt with. I'd be happy to give you examples, maybe by PM.

Then it could happen that one outweighs the other. So, yes, I see what you mean, but I'd tend to stay away because we are all at different levels and on different paths. I can tell that you're at an important point in your journey and so understand the spiritual very well - not all are there EZ. We're all trusting in Jesus to save us. Would you agree with this?

W

 

[ezrider]

EZ
This is speaking to the MAN. The inner man, the outer man, that which is visible.
It's not referring to the sin nature. There is only one sin nature.
it's speaking about renewing our mind. Not following the flesh.
It's talking about the FLESH and the SPIRIT.

Please narrow down one scripture up there that speaks to the fact that we have TWO NATURES. A CARNAL NATURE AND A SPIRITUAL NATURE.

The scripture you've provided does not show me this.

W

I think the scripture I posted are sufficient for now. I'm not interested in debating this where you put the responsibility on me to prove anything to you. If the scriptures I posted weren't good enough to start with, then I suspect nothing more would be.

Are you still in the flesh? Do you still lust for things? Do you still get hungry? Do you still feel pain? Do you only have a carnal nature?

 

[ezrider]

We're all trusting in Jesus to save us. Would you agree with this?

yes

 

[GodsGrace]

I think the scripture I posted are sufficient for now. I'm not interested in debating this where you put the responsibility on me to prove anything to you. If the scriptures I posted weren't good enough to start with, then I suspect nothing more would be.

Are you still in the flesh? Do you still lust for things? Do you still get hungry? Do you still feel pain? Do you only have a carnal nature?

You're intriguing EZ. It's past midnight here and I can't do this right now.
Tomorrow morning I'll answer each one of your verses individually.
The answers: yes. no. yes. yes. no.

Tomorrow...

 

[ezrider]

I also post there at times because I'm in the midst of what they talk about.
I consider myself to be a spiritual person. However, this does not help me in dealing with new problems that have arisen here. Which still have to be dealt with. I'd be happy to give you examples, maybe by PM.

Who was it that concerned themselves with the affairs of Rome: Jesus or Barabbas?
Whom did the people cry for Rome to pardon: Jesus or Barabbas?

I will only suggest to consider once again the parable of the sower. For it was those who heard the word of the kingdom, but the seed that was sown fell among the thorns, and the cares of the world choked out the word of the kingdom. Like the tares of the field, they only receive the word carnally, and they become unfruitful.

It may be fun to argue about politics, but what is the fruit that is bears in you?

 

[GodsGrace]

Who was it that concerned themselves with the affairs of Rome: Jesus or Barabbas?
Whom did the people cry for Rome to pardon: Jesus or Barabbas?

I will only suggest to consider once again the parable of the sower. For it was those who heard the word of the kingdom, but the seed that was sown fell among the thorns, and the cares of the world choked out the word of the kingdom. Like the tares of the field, they only receive the word carnally, and they become unfruitful.

It may be fun to argue about politics, but what is the fruit that is bears in you?

You're speaking to me personally?
I don't understand.
Do we have a relationship going on here?

I don't argue about politics.
I speak about real life and how it affects me.

 

[Runner]

Romans 7:17-18 (NJKV)
But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find.

Romans 7:17-18 (NLT)
So I am not the one doing wrong; it is sin living in me that does it.
And I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. I want to do what is right, but I can’t.

Romans 7 is one of the most important and heavily debated passages in the Bible. The debate centers on the "voice" in which Paul is speaking in Romans 7, especially verses 14-25. Is he speaking of his own present experience as a mature Christian, his own experience prior to conversion, or is he speaking in more abstract terms? An excellent book discussing and debating the various views (which I happen to have just finished) is Perspectives On Our Struggle With Sin: 3 Views of Romans 7, edited by Terry L. Wilder.

Just as a suggestion, the various "perspectives" books (of which there are many) can be invaluable - not necessarily in clearing up one's confusion on key issues, but in showing one just how much debate there is, even among first-rate scholars and theologians, on these issues. You realize you are confused because there is legitimate doubt and that several very different positions are equally plausible. You are then in a position to reach your own conclusion. A problem with forums such as this is that many posters hold dogmatic positions and are unaware that large segments even within the conservative evangelical community hold very different positions; the net result often is people talking past each other and increased confusion rather than clarity.

My early years as a Christian were spent with Campus Crusade for Christ, whose teachings I believe are pretty sound even if I would no longer fit comfortably there. They definitely taught, consistent with Romans 7, that life is a constant struggle between one's carnal nature and the Spirit. It was almost a running joke as to who was "carnal" today. As long as we are in the flesh, the sin nature does not disappear; it has been defeated, but it is still present.

 

[Wrg1405]

You realize you are confused because there is legitimate doubt and that several very different positions are equally plausible. You are then in a position to reach your own conclusion.

And that's what I struggle with, as to which conclusion do I settle on. There are areas of contention that I have settled my mind on, after much reading. This one though? Not all differences can be correct and I sure don't want to stand before God to find out that I got it wrong and see it all burned up.

 

[smaller]

If you've accepted Christ, you are no longer sinful before God. God sees His Son, He doesn't see YOU anymore.

Paul appears to have seen himself quite differently than the above and didn't try to lie about it either:

1 Timothy 1:15
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

"I am," present tense. Paul didn't blow hole about how righteous he was "in Christ" like a common hypocrite. He was honest about the state of his flesh and the connections of his sin to temptation, evil and the devil. Gal. 4:14, Romans 7:21, 2 Cor. 12:7 and quite essentially saw himself as NOTHING. Gal. 6:3.

To Paul his own status was meaningless and attaining to the full stature of Christ was everything, as it should be for any believer.

Ezekiel 36:31
Then shall ye remember your own evil ways, and your doings that were not good, and shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Romans 7:17-18 (NJKV)
But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find.

Romans 7:17-18 (NLT)
So I am not the one doing wrong; it is sin living in me that does it.
And I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. I want to do what is right, but I can’t.

So we find the Greek word 'sarx' is translated as flesh or nature.

I thought our sinful nature was crucified with Christ, it was circumcised when we came to beleive.

Is our nature which I think of as being our spirit/soul still sinful when we believe? If not was it really crucified with Christ, cut away?

What is it that's still in our flesh?

As a believer I hate everything I do that is contrary to nature of God but when I do it I'm confused.

So before God am I still sinful?

Hi hope my post makes sense. I think in a sense I'm saying the same as Paul, I know what is right and I know what is wrong and I hate doing wrong, but he seems to have something that I don't get. He has been st free and the sin within him is not committing the sin but the sin within him.

I is confused

Because you have the Holy Spirit, your fundamental desire and goal--your fundamental nature--is now to live for and please God:

5For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,8and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

Now that you are born again, sin gets in the way of your righteousness. Before you were born again your nature was that righteousness got in the way of your sinning. But now, in your new nature, sin gets in the way of your righteousness. That is why you started this thread. Not because you still have the nature of a sinner, but because your new, changed nature is that you love righteousness.

Your nature now is to actually care that sin interferes with your new fundamental love of righteousness. But your problem, and mine, is not that you still have the old nature of a love for unrighteousness, but that you, and I, still have the flesh body with it's desire for unrighteous things.

Paul explains to the Corinthians the truth of this here:

" Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God." (1 Corinthians 6:9-11 NASB)

They're slipping into the desires of their flesh bodies. How can he tell them 'such were some of you' except that he be talking about the change of nature that has occurred in them. Not the addition of a new nature alongside their old nature. He's reminding them that, by nature, they are no longer creatures whose fundamental love and desire is for the ways of their flesh bodies. They have a new nature now. A nature that loves righteousness, not loves the unrighteous desires of their flesh bodies. He's reminding them of that so they can be careful to think and do according to their new nature that loves righteousness, and to not be deceived by the desires of their flesh bodies.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

And that's what I struggle with, as to which conclusion do I settle on. There are areas of contention that I have settled my mind on, after much reading. This one though? Not all differences can be correct and I sure don't want to stand before God to find out that I got it wrong and see it all burned up.

Do what's right, that's what you are to do.
If you do that, you won't have to worry about if there is an old nature and a new nature in you, or just a new nature.
And when you are tempted to sin, remind yourself you have a new nature (as Paul did the Corinthians) and so, by faith, resist that temptation. And if/when you fail, ask forgiveness and move on.

 

[GodsGrace]

Paul appears to have seen himself quite differently than the above and didn't try to lie about it either:

1 Timothy 1:15
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

"I am," present tense. Paul didn't blow hole about how righteous he was "in Christ" like a common hypocrite. He was honest about the state of his flesh and the connections of his sin to temptation, evil and the devil. Gal. 4:14, Romans 7:21, 2 Cor. 12:7 and quite essentially saw himself as NOTHING. Gal. 6:3.

To Paul his own status was meaningless and attaining to the full stature of Christ was everything, as it should be for any believer.

Ezekiel 36:31
Then shall ye remember your own evil ways, and your doings that were not good, and shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations.

Isn't this what I said?
I said God doesn't see the sinful man
but His Son.
This is different from what you're saying??
I don't think so.

 

[GodsGrace]

And that's what I struggle with, as to which conclusion do I settle on. There are areas of contention that I have settled my mind on, after much reading. This one though? Not all differences can be correct and I sure don't want to stand before God to find out that I got it wrong and see it all burned up.

I don't understand.
Are you trusting that you have all your doctrine, concepts, ideas, theology, just perfectly correct and this will save you

Or

Are you trusting Jesus to save you??

THIS is the most important question you have to answer.

W