Flesh or sinful nature

[GodsGrace]

Romans 7:7-11
What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

Romans 7 and 8. Two of the most difficult chapters in the whole bible.
Law. Why did God give Moses the commandments?
So we could learn how we're supposed to live? So society could be orderly?
Yes.
But also to show us sin.
Before the commandments we didn't know what sin was or that we sinned.
The Jews had been in Egypt for about 400 years. As slaves. They'd forgotten even about Natural Law. They were too busy trying to survive each day.

So God showed them what sin is. Were the Laws bad? No. It makes us know the truth, even though we felt just fne without it. But now we are dead to the Law and alive in Chirst.

W

 

[ezrider]

This isn't bible study. Could you just say what you want to say and not use scripture?
Are you saying that if one is concerned with worldly things he cannot be a member of the Kingdom of God?

Funny how yesterday you insisted I use scripture, but now you don't want me to use scripture? Based upon the discussion of our nature(s), being either spiritual or being carnal, either living according to faith, or walking according to the law of sin, the resurrection to life, and the resurrection to death: The scriptures I posted say enough as they are.

Are you saying that if one is concerned with worldly things he cannot be a member of the Kingdom of God?

No, they are very much a member of the kingdom of God. They are in God's kingdom, but they can not see it. They are inside the kingdom, but they are outside the city.

Flesh and Blood can not inherit the kingdom, but those who are born of the Spirit can see the kingdom, and can inherit it.

 

[GodsGrace]

Funny how yesterday you insisted I use scripture, but now you don't want me to use scripture? Based upon the discussion of our nature(s), being either spiritual or being carnal, either living according to faith, or walking according to the law of sin, the resurrection to life, and the resurrection to death: The scriptures I posted say enough as they are.

No, they are very much a member of the kingdom of God. They are in God's kingdom, but they can not see it. They are inside the kingdom, but they are outside the city.

Flesh and Blood can not inherit the kingdom, but those who are born of the Spirit can see the kingdom, and can inherit it.

If you're going to say that we have two natures, then we need scripture because I don't agree and have never encountered this concept, either in scripture or in bible studies at two different churches. However, like you said, it's semantics and I'm not one to argue for pages on end.

Everything else you've stated are known biblical truths. No scripture necessary. It actually gets in my way at times which is why I hate quoting it in bible study - although I do of course.

You're saying two contradictory things up above.
First you say that, yes, they are members of the Kingdom even though they don't see it. They are inside the kingdom but outside the city. Okay. I know people like this. They are unaware of the Kingdom, unaware of the power that is available to them, unaware of the presence of the Holy Spirit. But I believe they are IN the kingdom nonetheless. They have chosen for God and no matter how limited they are, they are still on the path toward God.

But then you say:

Flesh and Blood can not inherit the kingdom, but those who are born of the Spirit can see the kingdom, and can inherit it.

Now you're saying that it IS necessary to see the Kingdom. Those born of the spirit CAN SEE the kingdom. Those of FLESH AND BLOOD cannot see the Kingdom. So then, you're saying that you CANNOT be born again UNLESS you can see the kingdom.

Which is it?

 

[ezrider]

We are, however made up of made up of different "parts". Some churches believe in a dichotomy. Body and Soul. The soul encompasses the spirit.

Other churches believe in a trichotomy. This is my belief. We are made up of three parts: Body, Soul and Spirit.

The nature that we have is part of the soul and spirit.

It's late and I need to go to bed, I may be rambling, but consider...

Adam was created a living soul.
God breathed into Adam the breath of life.
Do not eat the blood, for life is in the blood.
Adams spirit, the spirit of man comes from the flesh, and is part of the flesh.

Jesus was the beginning of a new creation, born of water and blood, and conceived of and born of the Holy Spirit.
Jesus was made a quickening Spirit. A new Spirit?
To be carnally minded is death, to be spiritually minded is life.
Our spirit in union with the Spirit of Christ...
The mystery of the body of Christ!

 

[GodsGrace]

It's late and I need to go to bed, I may be rambling, but consider...

Adam was created a living soul.
God breathed into Adam the breath of life.
Do not eat the blood, for life is in the blood.
Adams spirit, the spirit of man comes from the flesh, and is part of the flesh.

Jesus was the beginning of a new creation, born of water and blood, and conceived of and born of the Holy Spirit.
Jesus was made a quickening Spirit. A new Spirit?
To be carnally minded is death, to be spiritually minded is life.
Our spirit in union with the Spirit of Christ...
The mystery of the body of Christ!

I understand EZ.
I've already told you.
You're 100% right.
But you're on a very high plain.
It's good that you're there. Not all could join you. Not all could understand this.
Being in tune with the Spirit of Christ is the secret to happiness.

W

 

[ezrider]

They have chosen for God and no matter how limited they are, they are still on the path toward God.

Which path? The straight and narrow way, or the broad way?
Some are called forth to salvation and the resurrection of life.
Others are called forth to damnation and the resurrection of death.

Some are obedient to faith.
Others are obedient to the law of sin.

Both are in the kingdom of Christ. For this cause Christ both died and rose again, that he might be Lord of both the living and the dead.

 

[GodsGrace]

Which path? The straight and narrow way, or the broad way?
Some are called forth to salvation and the resurrection of life.
Others are called forth to damnation and the resurrection of death.

Some are obedient to faith.
Others are obedient to the law of sin.

Both are in the kingdom of Christ. For this cause Christ both died and rose again, that he might be Lord of both the living and the dead.

Both are not in the kingdom.
to be cont'd.
later...

 

[ezrider]

Both are not in the kingdom.
to be cont'd.
later...

Are both the wheat and the tares in the kingdom?

 

[GodsGrace]

Are both the wheat and the tares in the kingdom?

No.
The story of the wheat and the tares - you know it well.
The ground where they're planted represents the world, not the church.

 

[iLOVE]

Are you saying that all those fine Christians that hang out in the Current Events and Politics forum commenting all day long consumed with the cares of this world, who speak evil of dignitaries and despise government; are you saying that that are not born again?

Most of them are operating in the realm of the law of sin and death (condemnation). If scripture is used to identify the sins, they are ready to through you off a cliff. They have salvation, but not the joy of salvation.

 

[Eugene]

What is it that's still in our flesh?

We retain the old nature of Adam that will do anything the world does, and as with the Apostle in Romans Chapter Seven you brought forth he ended up doing the very thing he hated according to:
Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
And then as you brought forth: Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Now with this following statement you'd think Paul would have finished, but now he has discovered the answer.
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus !!!

Our Father sees us in Christ, and as Peter puts it, we have Christ's own divine nature. When He sees us, He sees Jesus.
2Pe 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

 

[Wrg1405]

We retain the old nature of Adam that will do anything the world does, and as with the Apostle in Romans Chapter Seven you brought forth he ended up doing the very thing he hated according to:
Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
And then as you brought forth: Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Now with this following statement you'd think Paul would have finished, but now he has discovered the answer.
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus !!!

Our Father sees us in Christ, and as Peter puts it, we have Christ's own divine nature. When He sees us, He sees Jesus.
2Pe 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

So do we retain the old nature as our spirit/soul or flesh? In my op the word nature/flesh is used for the Greek word sarx. You see to me my nature is my spirit and soul that is housed in my body the flesh. Which is what I am trying to get to, what is sinful? Is it the flesh? I have Christs own divine nature that must be his spirit/soul and therefore I can't be sinful before God (and please note I AM NOT ADVOCATING GREASY GRACE(and my new nature seeks the things of Christ and to be more like him))

To me to tell someone who has been circumcised with spiritual circumcision that they still have s sinful nature (which I have heard) is far different from telling someone they have a divine nature but sometimes sins. They will identify themselves either as Saint or Sinner which will determine in their own minds their identity as a child or not. This will then produce further ramifications in their walk, it will either be in grace or works. I must not sin to get Gods love rather than I identify with the nature I have been given by Christ and I so much want to be like him because he is in my and me in him, he loves me and I love him, not I must show him I love him by ridding myself of the sinful nature that I have been told I still have.

Does that make sense?

 

[Eugene]

So do we retain the old nature as our spirit/soul or flesh? In my op the word nature/flesh is used for the Greek word sarx. You see to me my nature is my spirit and soul that is housed in my body the flesh. Which is what I am trying to get to, what is sinful? Is it the flesh? I have Christs own divine nature that must be his spirit/soul and therefore I can't be sinful before God (and please note I AM NOT ADVOCATING GREASY GRACE(and my new nature seeks the things of Christ and to be more like him))

To me to tell someone who has been circumcised with spiritual circumcision that they still have s sinful nature (which I have heard) is far different from telling someone they have a divine nature but sometimes sins. They will identify themselves either as Saint or Sinner which will determine in their own minds their identity as a child or not. This will then produce further ramifications in their walk, it will either be in grace or works. I must not sin to get Gods love rather than I identify with the nature I have been given by Christ and I so much want to be like him because he is in my and me in him, he loves me and I love him, not I must show him I love him by ridding myself of the sinful nature that I have been told I still have.

Does that make sense?

I can believe nothing else but what I read in scripture. and my understanding of it.
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. (This is Christians.)
And then in Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us (Not by us), who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

I relate this to the battle of the habit and dominion of sin as we grow in grace and knowledge of our Lord. There are different stages to coming into the perfect will of God, and overcoming the lusts associated with our flesh is a major part of it.
1Jn 2:13 I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father.

This comes as we read of three stages of the will of God below associated with our different stages of growth in Christ Jesus.
Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

 

[Wrg1405]

I can believe nothing else but what I read in scripture. and my understanding of it.
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. (This is Christians.)

My understanding was that this was written to Gnostics who were causing divisions in the church, their views on sin was heretical. I'm not sure a true Christian would claim to be without sin, if so then the truth is not in them, the truth being Jesus therefore they are not Christians.

 

[Wrg1405]

I can believe nothing else but what I read in scripture. and my understanding of it.
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. (This is Christians.)

My understanding was that this was written to Gnostics who were causing divisions in the church, their views on sin was heretical. I'm not sure a true Christian would claim to be without sin, if so then the truth is not in them, the truth being Jesus therefore they are no

 

[Eugene]

My understanding was that this was written to Gnostics who were causing divisions in the church, their views on sin was heretical. I'm not sure a true Christian would claim to be without sin, if so then the truth is not in them, the truth being Jesus therefore they are not Christians .

Very possible, but then John says who he is addressing this to:
1Jn 1:4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full. Possibly bringing them to the thought of NO CONDEMNATION that Paul spoke of in Rom 8:1.

1Jn 2:12 I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake.
1Jn 2:13 I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father.
1Jn 2:14 I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.

 

[Wrg1405]

God's not passing out rewards and commendations for having the correct theology about the old and new nature.
His 'atta boy's' will get passed out in regard to what we did in response to his Word, not in regard to simply possessing it. You can have all the correct doctrine in the universe. It's what you do with that knowledge that will matter on the day of Judgment.

I have been pondering what you said. Just to let you know that my fear is not having incorrect theology per se but a theology that detracts from the Gospel of Jesus. A theology that places people under law and not grace. I want to be sure that what I say as I understand it reveals more of Jesus in their lives and does not cause them to stumble. This has and is a big issue for me.

To that end my op was to seek the advice of others just to ensure that my thoughts were not heretical and let's be honest there are a few doctrinal issues within the church.

So as I said I have been pondering what you said. I have never wanted knowledge for knowledge sake, I want the knowledge of God to help others know that Jesus so much loved you that he died for you, to restore the relationship he had with Adam, that he wants to walk with you and talk with you every day.

He wants to walk with you and talk with you every day because when we do so we become more like him, and he can reveal more of himself to us and the more like him we become the more people will see Jesus in us.

About an hour ago I was reading the following


Acts 18:24-28
Ministry of Apollos
Now a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man and mighty in the Scriptures, came to Ephesus. This man had been instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in spirit, he spoke and taught accurately the things of the Lord, though he knew only the baptism of John. So he began to speak boldly in the synagogue. When Aquila and Priscilla heard him, they took him aside and explained to him the way of God more accurately. And when he desired to cross to Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him; and when he arrived, he greatly helped those who had believed through grace; for he vigorously refuted the Jews publicly, showing from the Scriptures that Jesus is the Christ.

That has knocked a chink in my armour or to be true certain barriers.

I need to be comfortable with my conclusions on certain issues if it leads to Christ and secures their relationship with him that then releases them to walk and seek to be the person he has called us to be. As long as what I say leads to Christ then I will hear "Good and faithful servant"

I would just like to add though that with differences of opinion I feel the church unfortunately has, we need to be like Aquila and Priscilla. It seems to me that they were gentle and loving. Let's be sure that we are.

Let's not ride rough shot over each other, make each other feel foolish. If it detracts from Jesus explain in love.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

To me to tell someone who has been circumcised with spiritual circumcision that they still have s sinful nature (which I have heard) is far different from telling someone they have a divine nature but sometimes sins.

Yes, they are completely different things. And it's clear that Paul is of the latter thought, that we have a new divine nature and sometimes we sin, and he uses that truth to persuade Christians to stop indulging the sinful desires of their flesh bodies. He does not say to the church that they are still of the old. He tells them the old is gone:

"17Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come." (2 Corinthians 5:17 NASB italics in original, bold mine)

 

[Wrg1405]

Yes, they are completely different things. And it's clear that Paul is of the latter thought, that we have a new divine nature and sometimes we sin, and he uses that truth to persuade Christians to stop indulging the sinful desires of their flesh bodies. He does not say to the church that they are still of the old. He tells them the old is gone:

1 Corinthians 6:1-11

Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unrighteous, and not before the saints? Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life? If then you have judgments concerning things pertaining to this life, do you appoint those who are least esteemed by the church to judge? I say this to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you, not even one, who will be able to judge between his brethren? But brother goes to law against brother, and that before unbelievers!
Now therefore, it is already an utter failure for you that you go to law against one another. Why do you not rather accept wrong? Why do you not rather let yourselves be cheated? No, you yourselves do wrong and cheat, and you do these things to your brethren! Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

 

[Wrg1405]

↑
Yes, they are completely different things. And it's clear that Paul is of the latter thought, that we have a new divine nature and sometimes we sin, and he uses that truth to persuade Christians to stop indulging the sinful desires of their flesh bodies. He does not say to the church that they are still of the old. He tells them the old is gone:

1 Corinthians 6:1-11

Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unrighteous, and not before the saints? Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life? If then you have judgments concerning things pertaining to this life, do you appoint those who are least esteemed by the church to judge? I say this to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you, not even one, who will be able to judge between his brethren? But brother goes to law against brother, and that before unbelievers!
Now therefore, it is already an utter failure for you that you go to law against one another. Why do you not rather accept wrong? Why do you not rather let yourselves be cheated? No, you yourselves do wrong and cheat, and you do these things to your brethren! Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.