Flesh or sinful nature

[smaller]

Isn't this what I said?
I said God doesn't see the sinful man
but His Son.
This is different from what you're saying??
I don't think so.

I think we can all be entirely fully assured that God is against the evil present with anyone and everyone.

 

[GodsGrace]

I think we can all be entirely fully assured that God is against the evil present with anyone and everyone.

He's against the evil present.
But He's not against the person.

 

[smaller]

He's against the evil present.
But He's not against the person.

Brilliant conclusion. It's called both "for and against."

There is a set of simultaneous but opposing truths involved with this particular matter in scriptures. God is for man and against devils in man simultaneously.

If we look at how Paul described himself here:

2 Corinthians 12:
7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

We should, (long shot) should be able to see that God was for Paul and against the messenger of Satan in Paul's flesh.

The understandings get rather more complex when we realize that it was God who put that messenger of Satan upon Paul's flesh to start with.

And this same understanding is shown by Paul here, in Romans 11, showing that it is God Himself who bound everyone to disobedience:

Romans 11:
32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Yeah, God did that.

The entire world is filled to the brim with evidence of what God did in this matter.

 

[Wrg1405]

I don't understand.
Are you trusting that you have all your doctrine, concepts, ideas, theology, just perfectly correct and this will save you

Or

Are you trusting Jesus to save you??

THIS is the most important question you have to answer.

W

No I'm saved by faith in Jesus alone. There is nothing I can add to finished work on the cross.

What I am saying is that I do not want before God and find out that I believed and walked in that is doctrinally incorrect.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

What I am saying is that I do not want before God and find out that I believed and walked in that is doctrinally incorrect.

God's not passing out rewards and commendations for having the correct theology about the old and new nature.
His 'atta boy's' will get passed out in regard to what we did in response to his Word, not in regard to simply possessing it. You can have all the correct doctrine in the universe. It's what you do with that knowledge that will matter on the day of Judgment.

And the only way this matter of the old and new nature is going to affect you negatively on the Day of Judgement is if you erroneously think you still have an old nature and you use that to rationalize a continuing lifestyle of sin, thinking it has nothing to do with my salvation now that I'm saved. Apparently, to think your sins belong solely to the flesh and will disappear with the flesh while your spirit glows blamelessly and righteously despite that careless, wanton sin is Gnostic teaching, which was resisted and tossed out of the early church.

 

[GodsGrace]

No I'm saved by faith in Jesus alone. There is nothing I can add to finished work on the cross.

What I am saying is that I do not want before God and find out that I believed and walked in that is doctrinally incorrect.

Okay. Right answer.
So you sound like a pretty new Christian. Still asking a lot of questions.
Take it easy, go slow. All the answers will come to you - if you just read the bible and find a good church where you could do some bible study that would be good.

Here's the problem here: You talk to me and I'll tell you we have a sin nature that is put under submission and I'll give you all the scripture to go with it. You talk to Jethro and he'll tell you we no longer have a sin nature and he'll give you scripture that sounds just right. So which is it? Just keep reading the bible and eventually you'll know.

I like what Jethro tells you to do in his post no. 38. Do that. You know well what I like to say:
You do your best
Jesus does the rest.

Romans 7:17-18

Just before this, Paul is saying how speaking about the Law of Moses and how it fails to keep us good.
He says that God's commands are spiritual, but he is not - so how could he keep them? He is in sin's prison. He does what he does not want to do, and cannot do that which he would like to do.

He's saying that he, himself, cannot be trusted to do God's will. He cannot trust himself to know what is right, so God's commands become necessary.

The power of sin inside Paul is ruining his best intentions to be good. He just can't be good, although he would want to. He's looking for help. He decides to do something, but can't go through with the action.
Something is wrong and Paul is trying to find out what it is and if there's a solution.

Jesus is the solution. A new power is in control. We are now free from sin. Sin is no longer in control of our sin nature, we are freed from the bondage of sin. Jesus became one of us to set humanity straight. The Law could never be followed. It was like putting a band-aid on sin. Jesus did not band aid sin, he healed it. It now does not have dominion over us. This does not mean we will never again sin. The sin nature - the concupiscense acquired at the fall of Adam, is still a part of us.

But, whereas before it tended toward sin, now it tends toward God through the power of the Holy Spirit and, I like to say, our example Jesus, who experienced being man just as we are and through whom we get back that divinity that we had before the fall.

W

 

[Wrg1405]

No no

Okay. Right answer.
So you sound like a pretty new Christian. Still asking a lot of questions.
Take it easy, go slow. All the answers will come to you - if you just read the bible and find a good church where you could do some bible study that would be good.

Here's the problem here: You talk to me and I'll tell you we have a sin nature that is put under submission and I'll give you all the scripture to go with it. You talk to Jethro and he'll tell you we no longer have a sin nature and he'll give you scripture that sounds just right. So which is it? Just keep reading the bible and eventually you'll know.

I like what Jethro tells you to do in his post no. 38. Do that. You know well what I like to say:
You do your best
Jesus does the rest.

Romans 7:17-18

Just before this, Paul is saying how speaking about the Law of Moses and how it fails to keep us good.
He says that God's commands are spiritual, but he is not - so how could he keep them? He is in sin's prison. He does what he does not want to do, and cannot do that which he would like to do.

He's saying that he, himself, cannot be trusted to do God's will. He cannot trust himself to know what is right, so God's commands become necessary.

The power of sin inside Paul is ruining his best intentions to be good. He just can't be good, although he would want to. He's looking for help. He decides to do something, but can't go through with the action.
Something is wrong and Paul is trying to find out what it is and if there's a solution.

Jesus is the solution. A new power is in control. We are now free from sin. Sin is no longer in control of our sin nature, we are freed from the bondage of sin. Jesus became one of us to set humanity straight. The Law could never be followed. It was like putting a band-aid on sin. Jesus did not band aid sin, he healed it. It now does not have dominion over us. This does not mean we will never again sin. The sin nature - the concupiscense acquired at the fall of Adam, is still a part of us.

But, whereas before it tended toward sin, now it tends toward God through the power of the Holy Spirit and, I like to say, our example Jesus, who experienced being man just as we are and through whom we get back that divinity that we had before the fall.

W

no not a new Christian, just asking a question concerning an issue I do not understand based on the many interpretations I have read as expressed in postings here. I read the bible in depth but that doesn't mean to say that one cannot struggle with an issue and ask others what they think.

 

[GodsGrace]

No no

no not a new Christian, just asking a question concerning an issue I do not understand based on the many interpretations I have read as expressed in postings here. I read the bible in depth but that doesn't mean to say that one cannot struggle with an issue and ask others what they think.

Okay.
But what about what I wrote?
Has it helped any?

 

[for_his_glory]

We do have two natures. One is flesh nature of where we sin within the flesh as flesh is a filthy rag to God and then there is a Spiritual nature in us by being Spiritually born-again, John 3:3, that can not sin. The flesh does not inherit the kingdom of God as it is our Spiritual inner man by the rebirth that inherits the kingdom of God. This is why we must die daily to the flesh so when Christ returns and separates the wheat from the tares, or the sheep from the goats we who are wheat, and or sheep that hear His voice will be with God in his kingdom for ever and those who are among the tares, and or goats will be cast into the lake of fire to be with Satan, the beast and the false prophets forever. 1Thessalonians 4:13-18; 1Corinthians 15:42-50; Colossians Chapter 3.

 

[GodsGrace]

2 Corinthians 4:16
For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.

Romans 7:21-25
I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Romans 8:1-3
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh.

1 Corinthians 15:42-44
So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Hi EZRider
You had stated that we have two natures and I had asked you to provide scripture because this was a new concept to me. You posted the above.

As I stated briefly last night, the above does not prove that we have two natures. Man has one nature. Our human nature. The same nature that was corrupted in the Garden of Eden.

We are, however made up of made up of different "parts". Some churches believe in a dichotomy. Body and Soul. The soul encompasses the spirit.

Other churches believe in a trichotomy. This is my belief. We are made up of three parts: Body, Soul and Spirit.

The nature that we have is part of the soul and spirit.

To go through your scripture:

Romans 7:21-25
"So then with the mind I myself serve the Law of God, but with the flesh the Law of sin."

The mind is part of the soul. The flesh is the sin nature, or sometimes refers to our actual body which, anyway, is infected by the sin nature. It gets sick. It dies. The sin nature affects our soul. Our spirit is that part of us that pertains to God. That seeks God and is Godly. The sin nature does not affect our spirit except in the sense that we could be far from God and the spirit suffers. Also, our sin nature battles with our spirit. Our spirit seeks to do good, our sin nature tends toward sin.
But Romans 7:21-25 does not show there to be two separate natures in man.

Romans 8:1-3
"who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death."

This is just saying that that Jesus Christ has removed the condemnation of the Law through the power of HIS life-giving spirit.

The two spoken of here is: The spirit of life and the Law of sin and death. it is not referring to our nature and definitely not two natures.

1 Corinthians 15:42.44
You didn't underline the most important sentence, it seems to me. You're underlined is speaking to the resurrection of the dead. I fail to see the connection.
However, the last sentence does speak to a natural body and a spiritual body.
This goes back to the trichotomy spoken of earlier. We have a body and we have a spirit.
It still does not speak to our having two natures.

We don't have two natures. We have one nature that competes. When not saved, it tends toward sin and evil and is a slave to sin. Once saved, it becomes infused with the spirit of God and we can now choose to do the good which is in us since Jesus gives us this power through the Holy Spirit.

Wondering

 

[Barbarian]

God is not blind to your sins. Rather, He is aware that you love and trust Him, and those sins are forgiven, just as you would forgive a child who disobeyed, and then repented. Only God does it perfectly, without reservations.

For which we should be eternally grateful.

 

[ezrider]

We don't have two natures. We have one nature that competes.

Are we just playing with semantics here? I mean really. We have one nature that competes? What does it compete with? Have we engaged in circular logic here?

If a dog should spin to the left while chasing its own tail, then......
But if the dog should spin to the right instead, is it chasing the same tail?

 

[GodsGrace]

Are we just playing with semantics here? I mean really. We have one nature that competes? What does it compete with? Have we engaged in circular logic here?

If a dog should spin to the left while chasing its own tail, then......
But if the dog should spin to the right instead, is it chasing the same tail?

If I have a dirty dish
And I wash it
Does it become two dishes??
No. It's one dish. But it has been cleaned.

Maybe you're right EZ. It's semantics. It doesn't matter.
The only thing that matters is that once we're born again sin does not rule.
When we get our glorified bodies we will be the way God meant us to be.

Blessings
Wondering

 

[ezrider]

The only thing that matters is that once we're born again sin does not rule.
When we get our glorified bodies we will be the way God meant us to be.

Maybe the bigger question is when one actually becomes born again? Just because we can claim it, doesn't necessarily make it so. But that's an entirely different topic.

Glorified bodies: some celestial, some terrestrial.

 

[GodsGrace]

Maybe the bigger question is when one actually becomes born again? Just because we can claim it, doesn't necessarily make it so. But that's an entirely different topic.

Glorified bodies: some celestial, some terrestrial.

It's not a different topic. It has to do with the sin nature.
The sin nature changes once a person becomes born again.

So, yes. How do I know I've become born again? How do I know my nature has changed?
Because there are visible signs. One's life changes. Maybe a person cursed before, and now he is unable to do so. Maybe they drank too much and now they realize their body is a temple and God is telling them to honor it.

But it doesn't happen right away. It takes time. Sanctification is a life-long process. But we are justified immediately, no? Once someone is justified, are they not saved? Not all habits die right away. If I was into politics, let's say, it will probably continue to interest me until God says to slow down a bit and not think about it so much. Seeking first the Kingdom of God. Getting away from worldly matters.

But the world is still here. Am I not allowed to see the problem of migration for instance? Am I not allowed to be sad at how things have changed? Am I not allowed to be upset at those that have allowed this to happen? How holy must I be? Then what would I need Jesus for if all depends on me?

Glorified bodies. Terestial. This is not of the Kingdom.

Wondering

 

[ezrider]

1 Corinthians 15:42.44
You didn't underline the most important sentence, it seems to me. You're underlined is speaking to the resurrection of the dead. I fail to see the connection.

I underlined the passage speaking of the resurrection of the dead for a reason. It was to establish that while we are in the resurrection of the dead, we are sowed in corruption, but we are raised in glory. The resurrection of the dead is the kingdom of Christ.

John 5:21-29
For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God:and they that hear shall live. For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Daniel 12:1-3
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people:and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time:and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

Romans 14:7-9
For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself. For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord:whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's. For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.

Hosea 6:1-3
Come, and let us return unto the Lord:
for he hath torn, and he will heal us;
he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.
After two days will he revive us:
in the third day he will raise us up,
and we shall live in his sight.
Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the Lord:
his going forth is prepared as the morning;
and he shall come unto us as the rain,
as the latter and former rain unto the earth.

 

[GodsGrace]

I underlined the passage speaking of the resurrection of the dead for a reason. It was to establish that while we are in the resurrection of the dead, we are sowed in corruption, but we are raised in glory. The resurrection of the dead is the kingdom of Christ.

John 5:21-29
For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God:and they that hear shall live. For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Daniel 12:1-3
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people:and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time:and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

Romans 14:7-9
For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself. For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord:whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's. For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.

Hosea 6:1-3
Come, and let us return unto the Lord:
for he hath torn, and he will heal us;
he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.
After two days will he revive us:
in the third day he will raise us up,
and we shall live in his sight.
Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the Lord:
his going forth is prepared as the morning;
and he shall come unto us as the rain,
as the latter and former rain unto the earth.

I agree.
Is this what you're saying:
When we don't know Jesus, we're dead.
Without God we have a dead spirit. We need to be resurrected.
Lazarus. Jesus called him by name. Otherwise all the dead would have come out of the grave.
He calls us. We respond. We get new life. The spirit of God becomes a part of us and changes us.

So you're speaking of the dead in a metaphorical way? Okay. But it is also literal, as you also say, after death - at judgement time. And yes, that will be based on how we comported ourselves and if we were true to giving our best effort.

W

 

[ezrider]

Matthew 13:24-30
Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest:and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them:but gather the wheat into my barn.

The kingdom of heaven is liken...... Wheat and tares in the kingdom of Christ. Some called to the resurrection unto life, others called to the resurrection of damnation.

Matthew 13:36-38
Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house:and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one.

The tares become apparent, because they love Jesus and they love the Law and they concern themselves with the sins of others and the cares of the world. They look to the kingdoms of this world, and they speak of the kingdoms of this world; But do they ever speak after the kingdom of Christ? Seek ye first the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus said one must be born again to see the kingdom of heaven. How can they speak of the kingdom when they do not even look for it?

 

[GodsGrace]

Matthew 13:24-30
Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest:and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them:but gather the wheat into my barn.

The kingdom of heaven is liken...... Wheat and tares in the kingdom of Christ. Some called to the resurrection unto life, others called to the resurrection of damnation.

Matthew 13:36-38
Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house:and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one.

The tares become apparent, because they love Jesus and they love the Law and they concern themselves with the sins of others and the cares of the world. They look to the kingdoms of this world, and they speak of the kingdoms of this world; But do they ever speak after the kingdom of Christ? Seek ye first the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus said one must be born again to see the kingdom of heaven. How can they speak of the kingdom when they do not even look for it?

This isn't bible study. Could you just say what you want to say and not use scripture?
Are you saying that if one is concerned with worldly things he cannot be a member of the Kingdom of God?

 

[ezrider]

So you're speaking of the dead in a metaphorical way?

Romans 7:7-11
What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.