For the love of convenience, for the love of progress, for the love of...

[john darling]

uhm transhumanism is real. people do want to do that. fiction? cell phones were created by a man watching star trek and said lets do that. the idea was the simple communicator and we have cell phones. im not suggesting that its here but the idea of that is being pushed

Hi Jason. Ok I'll rephrase my thought. While the thing about mind reading technology could have genuine merit in some way, as it is now it just has a kooky vibe to it. Combining that issue along with microchip implants suggests a kooky correlation between the two which I think is unhelpful when it comes to giving serious consideration to the spiritual implications of microchip implants for banking purposes.

 

[john darling]

Lol, money is perhaps the biggest deception of all. This world doesn't need money to operate, they just want everyone to feel that way, and set everything up so you do need it...

If we didn't have money, there'd be no need for a welfare system.

Interesting point which I agree with. Money only acts as a motivator for why people work. If all the money in the world disappeared, the world's resources would not disappear along with it. Money has never done anything in itself. People do all the work because they believe they need money.

It's a fiat system, where the only value money has is the value we choose for it to have. We could make the same choices for other motivations, too, like working for love. Jesus talked about how God would provide for those who seek his kingdom first. He told us to think about the birds and flowers, precisely because they do not work for money and yet God takes care of them.

This is the answer to the Mark of the Beast. Something like "living off the land" still misses the point even though it does not directly relate to buying and selling, because it still puts the focus on something carnal (the land) rather than a simple dependence on God.

After feeding thousands of people they went seeking after Jesus again and he rebuked them because they were only interested in the food he gave them rather than God's ability to provide. He told them, "do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which will last for eternity" and then compared that food to doing the "works of God" (Jn 6:27). Compare this with what he said about not allowing worry for food and clothing stop us from working for love (Mt 6:24-34), and you get this picture where Jesus is asking us not to allow even the most basic necessities become the motivation for why we work. The only motivation should be for love of God, and God will take care of the things we need.

 

[john darling]

In the first place you are leaving out a BIG part of the mark of the beast. The idea is that one most worship the beast in order to be GIVEN or OBTAIN the mark.

Hi deborah. Thanks for raising this issue of worship. I think we may be coming at it from opposite ends. You suggest that the worship comes first and then the Mark is given as some kind of reward for that worship. The prophecy doesn't say anything like that.

Whereas I'm suggesting that taking the Mark IS a sign of worshiping the Beast's system, even if it's nothing more worshipful than just conceding (through our behavior) that the Beast is the true provider for our lives rather than God.

I think people get this idea that the Mark will be somehow overtly religious in nature, because the prophecy associates it with the Beast. But if the Beast is just a metaphor for worldly systems, then the Mark's association with the Beast is likely to be worldly, as well. You don't need wrong religious theology to be bad. The devil doesn't care about money or religion. He cares about turning people away from God. This is what the Mark represents. Do we trust God as our provider, or do we trust the systems of man?

I suggested earlier that part of the reason why so many Christians will end up taking the Mark is because they are looking for something overtly religious, whereas the microchip implants are just a part of normal, everyday progress in the area of economics and banking. It doesn't look bad because it doesn't look religious.

I think what you are trying to get to in your many, many posts is that man worships money and therefore he will accept the mark.

Different people have different ideas of what worship is. If you mean worship in the sense of people bowing down to money, swimming in pools of cash, praying to money well, no not many people do that kind of thing. But worship is more than just a religious display.

I think people will accept the Mark because they want to keep their job, pay the bills and put food on the table. They will almost certainly find some way to convince themselves that it's not the Mark, probably by using some kind of argument about how they don't worship the implant so it can't be the Mark.

If that is the case we have all accepted the mark already in one form or another. Gold, silver, diamonds, other gems, paper money, checks, ccards, valuable art, stocks and bonds, etc. In that case, what difference is there in any other form of tender?

You raise another good point. There are many marks out there (lower case "m") but there will be one "The" Mark. The difference depends on motivations for why we work. We're in a situation where we're not forbidden from using money. However, we are told not to work for money. In other words, the motivation for why we work should not be money, but rather, to seek God's kingdom first.

As it is now, those motivations become easily confused. People work for one master while claiming to work for another master and they dabble back and forth between the two depending on how convenient it is at the time. The Mark represents a final diving line, a line in the concrete as one last attempt to reach people with this message that God is the giver of life, not money. No more games. No more masks. You either side with God or you side with the Beast. The Mark is the sign of who we've chosen to side with.

It's not like the Beast is a loose cannon out there doing is own thing irregardless of what God wants. He's only able to use this issue of buying and selling because God allows him too. Think about that. God knows we use money to buy things we need. Why would he allow the Beast to put us in such an obvious situation where we are forced to choose between God or money? Why would the beast decide to use buying and selling as the dividing line?

Well, from the Beast's perspective, most people in the world believe they will die without money. The obvious choice for turning the maximum number of people away from God will be to use this one common theme on which we feel our lives depend. It's a fear that he will exploit. It's a no brainer. If the world believed they could not live without fish in the same way we believe we cannot live without money, you can be sure the prophecy would be something like, "A mark without which no person could have fish".

From God's perspective the Mark represents a choice; who do people really trust as their source of life, him, or money?

 

[reba]

The subtil rewriting of Scripture started in the garden...

 

[john darling]

The subtil rewriting of Scripture started in the garden...

Rewriting?

 

[reba]

Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
Gen 3:2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
Gen 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
Gen 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

 

[Edward]

I wouldn't normally make an issue of ending sentences with a preposition, but in the context of this thread the irony is just too good to pass...up. >.>

"It'd prolly only take a years worth of utility bills to up set a system".

Just call me Churchill lol. How's that go again? That is nonsense up with which I shall not put.
It was late.

 

[john darling]

Just call me Churchill lol. How's that go again? That is nonsense up with which I shall not put.
It was late.

Yeah exactly. I'm the one who gave him the idea for that quote, btw. Just sayn... :halo

 

[Edward]

Yeah exactly. I'm the one who gave him the idea for that quote, btw. Just sayn... :halo

Yeah he murdered that sentence whereas my sentence was merely regional dialect. Yeah yeah that's what it was.

Let the ho down begin, lol.

 

[john darling]

Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
Gen 3:2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
Gen 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
Gen 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Hi Reba. I don't understand how you're relating this to rewriting.

 

[bluegirl]

Hmm, I'm not quite sure you guys understand the situation. "I won't be chipped" is a bit like someone a thousand years ago saying, "I'll never use paper money" or someone a hundred years ago saying, "plastic cards? pfftt. That's rediculous I won't do it".

Money always changes. It's a natural part of progress. Just as you can't use gold coins at the grocery store these days, so too will methods like cash money and cards become obsolete. It's quite amazing how quickly "concerns" can be overcome when it comes to paying the bills.

But what if progress is a dead end, just more of the tree of knowledge all over again? Progress does not fascinate me, or its many medusa heads. Man has never progressed. The only improvement man can make to his shack here on earth is to accept Jesus in his heart.

 

[bluegirl]

He sure does. It's all copycat counterfeit stuff though. We can't reject all paranormal/supernatural incidents as witchcraft though. Test those spirits! Every one.



Most the people I know all are taking steps to be able to operate off the grid. It'd prolly only take a years worth of utility bills to set a system up.

I am not preparing anything or taking steps.
Sure pray God takes care of me when the lights begin to flicker......

 

[john darling]

Hi bluegirl. Welcome to the topic.

But what if progress is a dead end, just more of the tree of knowledge all over again? Progress does not fascinate me, or its many medusa heads. Man has never progressed. The only improvement man can make to his shack here on earth is to accept Jesus in his heart.

More of the tree of knowledge all over again? If you mean more of people refusing to listen to God, yeah I agree.

Even if human progress is a dead end, the dead end is still a destination people are moving toward. The point of the topic is to understand what that dead end is and what choices we make along the way which keep us on that path.

What do you think about the topic of microchip implants for banking purposes and it's similarity to the Mark of the Beast prophecy?

I am not preparing anything or taking steps.
Sure pray God takes care of me when the lights begin to flicker......

Sorry, can you clarify what you mean by God taking care of you when the lights start to flicker, in the context of the topic?

 

[bluegirl]

Hi bluegirl. Welcome to the topic.



More of the tree of knowledge all over again? If you mean more of people refusing to listen to God, yeah I agree.

Even if human progress is a dead end, the dead end is still a destination people are moving toward. The point of the topic is to understand what that dead end is and what choices we make along the way which keep us on that path.

What do you think about the topic of microchip implants for banking purposes and it's similarity to the Mark of the Beast prophecy?



Sorry, can you clarify what you mean by God taking care of you when the lights start to flicker, in the context of the topic?

Just speaking in types and shadows perhaps, when I refer to the trees. We each in a way repeat the decision about the trees, for me at least it feels that way. So oh yeah, people refusing to obey God. As for implants, I don't know, sorry. Is the mark physical or is it the very lack of obedience, pride itself, that marks those belonging to the beast. As I said, I do not know. Many thought the mark was social security numbers etc. But the issue I have with a physical mark is that the physical body is not in itself what determines or shows that someone is God's or is otherwise marked for the beast.

As for flickering lights, I was alluding to the way that humans tend to want or need to know what is happening to them and what it means. But God does not always tell us. So the flickering lights could be impending events, a hurricane coming, an electrical outage, any human event which is frightening and disturbs the creature comforts. And humans often cling to security in those cases, not always from God but sometimes just of this world. I was just saying that if we submit to Jesus, all the worry and panic is for nought abut the mark of the beast. We belong to Jesus and no one can change that. We can trust and have faith in that and stop worrying about things of this world and stop needing to divine things that will be.

 

[john darling]

But the issue I have with a physical mark is that the physical body is not in itself what determines or shows that someone is God's or is otherwise marked for the beast.

A similar case could be made for fornication or adultery, since physical bodies are used to make those things happen.

As for flickering lights, I was alluding to the way that humans tend to want or need to know what is happening to them and what it means.

When Nicodemus incredulously asked Jesus how one could be born again, you could kind of hear the frustration in Jesus' voice when he said, "if you do not believe me about earthly things, how will you believe me when I tell you about Heavenly things".

I think God wants us to know what's happening around us, but we're just kinda stubborn sometimes. Relating it back to the context, I think that's the purpose of prophecy to begin with. God wants us to have a better understanding of spiritual lessons. It's a Revelation of Jesus Christ; he is the ultimate subject of all these bits about the Mark and the Beast and all such things.

The part about the Mark relates back to Jesus' teachings about God or money. What will we do if we refuse our only means for buying and selling? Jesus' teachings are revealed as the answer to that dilemma.

And humans often cling to security in those cases, not always from God but sometimes just of this world.

Agreed. I believe this is why the Beast will choose buying and selling as the dividing line. We're born into a world where money makes the world go round. We grow up in a system where nothing is free. Our whole lives are spent in pursuit of an education, for which there is some lip service about the joys of learning and understanding, but in most practical cases we all know that without education we're unlikely to get jobs working for money. We become so indoctrinated into this system that we eventually believe that we would die without money.

Take away the money and what do we really have left? Theory. Ideologies. Good intentions. Wishful thinking. Cliché. When speaking about the end time Jesus somewhat rhetorically asked, "when the son of man returns, will he find faith on the Earth".

I was just saying that if we submit to Jesus, all the worry and panic is for nought abut the mark of the beast.

Agreed. But then, what does it really mean to "submit" to Jesus? There are so many "right" answers, but hardly any of them ever venture into areas where it starts to cost us anything personally.

As the saying goes, "It's difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on him not understanding." It's like that with the Mark. No more job. No more paying the bills. No more buying and selling.

It's so much easier to believe anything else. I talked with a guy who was absolutely convinced that God would not allow him to take the Mark because the Bible says the elect will not be deceived and no one or no thing could snatch him out of the father's hand. In other words, he could take any number of marks on his right hand, fitting the description of The Mark, and he'd be fine because, by virtue of him claiming to be Christian, those things could not be the Mark.

It's such flimsy logic. One would only need to compare that logic to fornication (i.e. sex outside of marriage is not fornication if I am a Christian, because Christians are commanded not to fornicate and nothing can snatch me out of the father's hand) to see the problem, but when it came to using the same logic about taking the Mark he couldn't see it.