Forever Secure

[Cygnus]

This repentance "of things that are sin we do day in and day out" is part of the required walking in the light (1 Jn 1:7) that must CONDITIONALLY CONTINUALLY be done to have all sins washed away. "IF" one quits walking in the light, then his sins no longer cleansed away by the blood of Christ becomes lost.

Every time you sin...you are not walking in the light. Are you saing you no longer sin?

As long as one CONDITIONALLY CONTINUES to hear and follow Christ (Jn 10:27) he will not be snatched from God's hands. "IF" one quits hearing and following Christ he no longer qualifies as a sheep of Christ and he removes himself from God's hands.

That's not what the verse says. Why are you adding to the verse?

 

[JLB]

You make it sound like..if you sin, walking according to the flesh...you lose your salvation.

If that's not what you're saying then you should explain.

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1


First of all I don't use the phrase
"lose your salvation".

Those are your words. Not mine.

So I can't explain what you mean.

 

[Cygnus]

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1


First of all I don't use the phrase
"lose your salvation".

Those are your words. Not mine.

So I can't explain what you mean.

I suppose that might be how one uses the word condemnation.

Strongs defines the word as.....punishment following condemnation, penal servitude, penalty.

I see condemnation as eternal separation from God...hell. In that sense I see you pointing at losing ones salvation.

Romans 5:16 has this to say about it....And the free gift is not like the result of that one man’s sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification.

If condemnation is a scoulding from God or a slap on the hand.....then I suppose those walking in the Spirit won't get a reprimand from God.

 

[JLB]

If you back up to verse 3 you read.... 3 that which we have seen and heard we proclaim also to you, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ.

Kinda sounds like some of them may not have been saved.

Actually it doesn’t.

Why would John want to have fellowship with unbelievers?

• If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive usour sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

If a Christian confesses their sin, He is faithful and just to forgive us.

This is for believers not unbelievers.




JLB

 

[netchaplain]

"No condemnation" is conditionally found "in Christ". There is condemnation to those that fall away from Christ.

Question: Can a Christian steal from his neighbor, from his creditors, etc and still be saved?

Those reborn do not fall away, nor do they desire to steel!

 

[netchaplain]

Successfully showing Romans 8:1 is quoting the whole scripture, not part of it.

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1

Hi and hope all is well with your Family! The phrase "who do not walk according to the flesh" is not an instruction to avoid condemnation, but is descriptive of those who have not been reborn.

 

[JLB]

Hi and hope all is well with your Family! The phrase "who do not walk according to the flesh" is not an instruction to avoid condemnation, but is descriptive of those who have not been reborn.

God bless you. I hope all is well with you.


There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1


So these people who are in Christ are not reborn yet?


Is that what you believe?



JLB

 

[netchaplain]

God bless you. I hope all is well with you.


There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1

So these people who are in Christ are not reborn yet?

Is that what you believe?

JLB

God bless you. I hope all is well with you.


There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1


So these people who are in Christ are not reborn yet?


Is that what you believe?



JLB

I should have proof checked it, I got it mixed up with another passage like it.

 

[Pipiripi]

My friends, brother and sisters.
This is the vital point of the completely book of Romans. Romans 8:1-8. Read what Paul is saying in verse 4. (Keep the Commandments)
Look at verse 7. ( They are enemy of God, and also Paul is saying that they CANNOT KEEP GOD'S LAW, which is the 10 Commandments including the Sabbath). It is very clear that the teaching once save forever save is a lie from satan himself.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I have learned though, that the primary delay in understanding the issue of permanent security in Christ is in attempting to attribute to ourselves (other than receiving) anything that either effects and retains salvation.

You must trust in Christ to effect and retain salvation.
That's what the Bible says.
It's prescriptive, not descriptive.

And I know what you're going to say next.
So explain why the saved Galatians fell away.
Why did God do such a crappy job of believing for them?
I mean if God even does our believing for us why does he do such a lousy job?

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Every time you sin...you are not walking in the light. Are you saing you no longer sin?

Just because a Christian sins does not mean they have quit walking in the light completely and altogether. Peter sinned in denying Christ but he did not quit walking in the light altogether but continued on walking as seen he remained an Apostle, preached the first recorded gospel sermon and wrote inspired books.
No Christian's walk will be perfectly sinless but committing a sin does not equate to quit walking altogether. Only those Christian that quit the walk altogether become lost no longer having all their sins washed away by the blood of Christ.

That's not what the verse says. Why are you adding to the verse?

Jn 10:28 "And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."

I have seen many times on various forums how people take this one verse, (Jn 10:28) REMOVE IT FROM ALL OTHER BIBLE CONTEXTS and wrest the idea of OSAS into it.

This one verse isolated by itself from all other verses tells us nothing. This verse isolated by itself we would not know who the pronouns "them" and "they" even refer to. That's why you have to have verse 27 to go with v28 for both verses make up one thought. Verse 27 "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:"

Verse 27 tells us who the pronouns "them" and "they" of verse 28 refers to, that being Christ's sheep. Yet verse 27 shows one cannot be a sheep of Christ UNCONDITIONALLY. One must CONDITIONALLY hear and follow Christ to qualify to be of His sheep and thereby be of the "they" and "them" of verse 28. And since both verbs "hear" and "follow" are present tense shows the hearing and following must be ongoing, sustained unto death. If one quits hearing and following Christ then he no longer qualifies as a sheep of Christ therefore no longer one of the "them" and "they" of verse 28. One can quit hearing and following by using the same volition they used to chose to start hearing and following. The context has conditions all through it making salvation conditional not unconditional as OSAS wrongly claims.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Those reborn do not fall away, nor do they desire to steel!

----Yes, they can fall away. Conditions (as having faith) must be meet in order to become saved and conditions must continued (present tense verbs) to be met unto death in order to remain in a saved state.

----in my question about a Christian stealing, I am talking about what the Christian actually does, not what he desires not to do. Can the Christian actual steal and yet be saved anyway?

Secondly, you say the Christian would not desire to steal. Are you suggesting the Christian will not desire to sin to the point of being perfectly sinless? But if you say the Christian does sin, then can the Christian actually commit the sin of theft (or adultery, lying etc) and yet be saved impenitently in his sins anyway?

 

[netchaplain]

You must trust in Christ to effect and retain salvation.

My Friend in Christ, the way I see it is that when we desire to seek out the Lord Jesus, saving faith is given (along with "everything that pertains to godliness," which we continue to learn to walk in). It's not with the natural faith all have concerning earthly things, but the supernatural faith from the fruit of the Spirit ("the fruit of the Spirit is . . . faith." This is the type of faith that "not all men have," but those who live by it "according as God hath dealt to every man (believer) the measure of faith" (2Th 3:2; Rom 12:3).

Love You All

 

[JLB]

Just because a Christian sins does not mean they have quit walking in the light completely and altogether. Peter sinned in denying Christ but he did not quit walking in the light altogether but continued on walking as seen he remained an Apostle, preached the first recorded gospel sermon and wrote inspired books.
No Christian's walk will be perfectly sinless but committing a sin does not equate to quit walking altogether. Only those Christian that quit the walk altogether become lost no longer having all their sins washed away by the blood of Christ.

So true.


But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1 John 1:7-9

• if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

As we see from the scripture itself, we can indeed be walking in the light as He is in the light and still need the blood of Jesus to cleanse us from all sin.

When we are walking in the light we are not "hiding" from God, but walking with Him openly confessing our sin if we commit one and continuing with Him to remain with Him in abiding fellowship.

Not running away and hiding as Adam and Eve did, but being open with Him expressing our need for Him and hating our sin, asking Him to change us, and transform us because we want to be like Him.

He knows it's a process, He knows it takes time to learn to walk in the Spirit, but the question is, do we like our sin and evil deeds or do we hate them and truly want to change?



And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.” John 3:19_21


This same John says the born again Christian doesn't want to continue to keep on sinning, and therefore he doesn't.





JLB

 

[JLB]

Verse 27 tells us who the pronouns "them" and "they" of verse 28 refers to, that being Christ's sheep. Yet verse 27 shows one cannot be a sheep of Christ UNCONDITIONALLY. One must CONDITIONALLY hear and follow Christ to qualify to be of His sheep and thereby be of the "they" and "them" of verse 28. And since both verbs "hear" and "follow" are present tense shows the hearing and following must be ongoing, sustained unto death. If one quits hearing and following Christ then he no longer qualifies as a sheep of Christ therefore no longer one of the "them" and "they" of verse 28. One can quit hearing and following by using the same volition they used to chose to start hearing and following. The context has conditions all through it making salvation conditional not unconditional as OSAS wrongly claims.

This verse really makes it plain for me.


Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded. James 4:7-8


Draw near to God and He will draw near to you.



Sheep that want to be in the light and remain with the Sheppard are the ones that don’t end up becoming lost.


They listen with the intent of doing what they hear, which means they follow him; they obey Him.

They stay close to Him.

This way, His rod and staff are comforting to them.



JLB

 

[Cygnus]

Just because a Christian sins does not mean they have quit walking in the light completely and altogether. Peter sinned in denying Christ but he did not quit walking in the light altogether but continued on walking as seen he remained an Apostle, preached the first recorded gospel sermon and wrote inspired books.
No Christian's walk will be perfectly sinless but committing a sin does not equate to quit walking altogether. Only those Christian that quit the walk altogether become lost no longer having all their sins washed away by the blood of Christ.





Jn 10:28 "And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."

I have seen many times on various forums how people take this one verse, (Jn 10:28) REMOVE IT FROM ALL OTHER BIBLE CONTEXTS and wrest the idea of OSAS into it.

This one verse isolated by itself from all other verses tells us nothing. This verse isolated by itself we would not know who the pronouns "them" and "they" even refer to. That's why you have to have verse 27 to go with v28 for both verses make up one thought. Verse 27 "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:"

Verse 27 tells us who the pronouns "them" and "they" of verse 28 refers to, that being Christ's sheep. Yet verse 27 shows one cannot be a sheep of Christ UNCONDITIONALLY. One must CONDITIONALLY hear and follow Christ to qualify to be of His sheep and thereby be of the "they" and "them" of verse 28. And since both verbs "hear" and "follow" are present tense shows the hearing and following must be ongoing, sustained unto death. If one quits hearing and following Christ then he no longer qualifies as a sheep of Christ therefore no longer one of the "them" and "they" of verse 28. One can quit hearing and following by using the same volition they used to chose to start hearing and following. The context has conditions all through it making salvation conditional not unconditional as OSAS wrongly claims.

Your form of salvation appears to be works based or strongly works influenced. One does not lose their salvation but rather loses rewards. (1 Cor 3:15) The verse above says..And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish,...it seem pretty clear if you are given eternal life then you can't lose the eternal life. If you could lose the eternal life then it wasn't eternal.

I believe the people you speak of are often these people...1st John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.

 

[Cygnus]

----Yes, they can fall away. Conditions (as having faith) must be meet in order to become saved and conditions must continued (present tense verbs) to be met unto death in order to remain in a saved state.

What you keep forgetting is that faith is a gift from God.

Eph 2;8 For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

 

[Cygnus]

So true.


But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1 John 1:7-9

• if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

As we see from the scripture itself, we can indeed be walking in the light as He is in the light and still need the blood of Jesus to cleanse us from all sin.

When we are walking in the light we are not "hiding" from God, but walking with Him openly confessing our sin if we commit one and continuing with Him to remain with Him in abiding fellowship.

Not running away and hiding as Adam and Eve did, but being open with Him expressing our need for Him and hating our sin, asking Him to change us, and transform us because we want to be like Him.

He knows it's a process, He knows it takes time to learn to walk in the Spirit, but the question is, do we like our sin and evil deeds or do we hate them and truly want to change?



And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.” John 3:19_21


This same John says the born again Christian doesn't want to continue to keep on sinning, and therefore he doesn't.





JLB

Yes, if you walk in the light the blood of Christ washes away our sins. Only Christ followers...believers..have the ability to walk in the light. It is what happens to believers...NO WHERE does the verse say if you step out of the light you will lose your salvation.

This is how you add to the verse.....

• if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. If you walk in the darkness and have no fellowship with one another the blood of His Son will stop cleaning you from sin.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

My Friend in Christ, the way I see it is that when we desire to seek out the Lord Jesus, saving faith is given (along with "everything that pertains to godliness," which we continue to learn to walk in). It's not with the natural faith all have concerning earthly things, but the supernatural faith from the fruit of the Spirit ("the fruit of the Spirit is . . . faith." This is the type of faith that "not all men have," but those who live by it "according as God hath dealt to every man (believer) the measure of faith" (2Th 3:2; Rom 12:3).

Love You All

Yes, God gives the gift of faith by which a person can then believe and be saved.
But the believing/ trusting that a person does in response to God's gift of faith is what you do.

And if you think that is somehow a works gospel, remember that Paul did not include trusting in Christ with the works that can not justify, but rather contrasted it with them:

"...who does not work but trusts God..." - Romans 4:5

Most people choose not to believe and trust in what God has shown them to be true through the supernatural gift of faith, the gift of 'knowing' (Hebrews 11:1). These people are rejected. But the few who do choose to believe and trust in what God has shown them to be true through the gift of faith are chosen by God on the basis of their faith/believing.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

What you keep forgetting is that faith is a gift from God.

Eph 2;8 For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

Faith is the supernatural ability to know something is true that you can't know is true on your own.
God gives that supernatural ability as a free gift.
That all by itself can't save a flea.
You must then place your trust in what God has graciously shown you to be true in order to be saved.
YOU do that. And that's not a work of self righteousness.
Paul says trusting in Christ for justification is in stark CONTRAST to doing the works of the law for justification.
But somehow our dear friend Calvin placed trusting in Christ on the side of the works that can not justify and has mislead countless numbers of people into the doctrine that is now destroying the church in these end times.