Growth Forgiveness, Justice, or Revenge?

[Sandy Zalecki]

I was listening to a newscast a couple of years ago and a man was being sentenced for a crime he committed against a family. The family was there and the judge asked them for their opinion on sentencing this guy. The family said, “Our religion does not believe in revenge so we recommend forgiveness.” I am sure the judge sentenced the man to some time in prison but I was amazed at the answer the family gave the judge. Were they Christians, no they were Buddhists.

Another great example of forgiveness was the shooting of Amish school children by a man who was supposed to be making a delivery. I can’t remember how many kids he killed. His wife was distraught that her husband could do such a thing. Did the Amish hold a grudge against his wife? No, they welcomed her with open arms knowing that she was hurting as much as they were. Did they ask for stricter gun control laws or station armed guards in their schools? No, they accepted what happened, turned to each other and the Lord for comfort, and resumed their lives.

Yet every day I see people that go to mainstream churches asking for the death penalty, long prison sentences, or lifetime on the sex offender registry for crimes committed against them. Where is there forgiveness? I do agree that some people are dangerous and need to be separated from society for our protection and their own protection, but many people in prison now are there because someone wanted the system to get revenge for them. Is this justice or is it revenge? It is difficult to tell what the American “justice” system has turned into.

All throughout the Bible there are great examples of forgiveness and we are admonished to forgive. Leviticus 19:18 says, “You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the children of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the Lord.” The Lords prayer says, “And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.” (Matthew 6:12) NKJ Jesus was a perfect example of forgiveness. While He was hanging on the cross, He said, “Father forgive them; for they know not what they do.” (Luke 23:34) NKJ Stephen, the first Christian martyr pray this as they stoned him, “Lord, lay not this sin to their charge.” (Acts 7:60) NKJ

We are commanded by the Lord to forgive and we have many examples of forgiveness in the Bible. When we run to the government for yet another law to keep something from happening, which never works, do we want it because we want revenge or justice? The Bible and the Constitution both advocate for forgiveness and restoration. Restoration gives the perpetrator a chance to reform and become a useful citizen again. Where do you stand? What do you seek, revenge and “justice” or forgiveness and restoration?

 

[Sandy Zalecki]

Justice IS very different from revenge, Sandy. A God of love must be a God of justice; hence, heaven and hell. Justice is what God or His appointees have decided is the appropriate price to pay for a crime perpetrated upon a victim. We can forgive but the consequences of the crime whether it is a girl who may never ever be able to want or enjoy a sexual relationship with or trust the intent of her future husband(s!) the rest of her life stealing the joy, pleasure, and intimacy which God designed for marriage or a family which has to suffer and deal with a member's dearh and the appropriate penalty as perscribed by law (if justice is served!) will still occur. Revenge is a personal vandetta dictated by emotion and with no foundation in what is right by law but rather by what will satisfy, however temporary and inadequately, one's feelings. Without justice being served all that is left is a hateful world of revenge. Like Chuck Colson was trying to affect we do need to go back to many of the forms of just penalties as perscribed in the OT. Like if a man murders another he then becomes the house servant of the widow he made and dare he not honor the penalty. I meant to include that although we Christians are forgiven, the heaviest and severest penalty ever served had to be edured by God the Son, Jesus himself, in order to affect our forgiveness.

I think I did not make myself clear. If you have ever been a part of the American "justice" system it has become more about revenge than justice. Instead of people taking revenge on others themselves, they go to the American justice system and have them do it for them. Because of the private prison system our prisons have become nothing more than warehouses for people who don't have enough money to fight the system. They become criminals in that system rather than getting the help that they need and being restored to society. It is all about the money. The government gives big money to private prisons to warehouse people. Is that your form of "justice?" There are those who have committed crimes that do need to be behind bars and pay for what they did, but others that are there because someone else want to get revenge need to be restored and released. God's justice is real and true, but ours is flawed and is corrupted to the max right now.

 

[Sandy Zalecki]

So, Sandy, I am sure that you have heard what kind of person just goes around decrying a bad thing and spends/wastes all their time and energy complaining and doing nothing to fix the problem. I am going to suppose that you aren't that type of person so what system and processes are you proposing? So far you have only shared useless generalizations and hypothetical senarios and pie in the sky ideas but I bet you hae some real good and well-proven alternatives to share with us to reform the correctional process. Please enlighten us on some time-tested and proven alternatives with all of the details.

Yes, I do. It is called giving your life to Christ, turning from you sins and repenting. It is called revival in your heart. If you think I am just being silent on this issue you are wrong. Our ministry (my husband and I) have a ministry called "Called from the Desert." We are currently teaching a series on serving God at a church in our home town, planning a city wide revival in March, June and October or next year, partner with this forum, and are online at www.calledfromthedesert.com.

 

[jasoncran]

I have been trained as mp correctional officer. our justice system is a joke. revenge? what exactly is justice if we have a teen who killed four people and just gets probation? what about the teen I know that was raped by an adult, he was 13 and she 19. he was given a beer without his knowledge and was drunk and even then refuse sex and told his mom. the girl gets 6 months.im all for forgiving and I like chuck colson's ideas but we also need to punish those break the laws fairly. to say im a Christian now and im sorry, and realize the guy isn't wise. let them serve and repay the just sentence.

the torah has no mention of payment to the widow for murder of the husband, its life for life.

 

[Sandy Zalecki]

Sandy, Do you know how many people, esp. convicts, "find Jesus" when it is beneficial for them to exploit the the benefits available due to this? Too many to count. I have seen it many times. As soon as they are out of the environment which rewarded them to con them with this false profession they are on to whatever the next con game is. Granted not all are this way but enough to make a "second chance" ministry, which must be something yuours is if it is an alternate to prison, a real challenge to very efficiently operate and produce a worthy success rate for the money, time, and resurces invested. I sure do hope that you have a lot, lot more in mind than just leading them to the Lord and teaching them the Way. A Lot of structure and accountability will be needed if you want it to be a sucess of any kind. You are dealing with many people who don't respond to love normally and have many deviant and anti-social and hateful and confused perceptions that don't just disappear at salvation. You and your husband could end up getting hurt REAL bad if you aren't more careful about this venture than it appears. I have been all around the world and fromn my vantage point, and I believe Chuck Colson's too, the US has the best prison systems in the world. I also have retired from the MI prison system, bureau of prison industries (MSI.) I wasn't a guard; I was charged with guard responsibilities and also charged with teaching inmates a productive trade in a non-black and white (letter of the law) manner. I openly shared and expressed my faith when the opportunity availed itself and was known as the Christian by the inmates and I surely had an empathy for them due to my background but I learned and maintain what I have said above. You give them your good will and faith without strict accountability and you WILL be sorry. By the way, you omitted the details.

I have been in prison ministry for over 10 years now, so I know exactly what goes on in the prison system. I know people that have made true confessions and they are some of the best guys I know. I also know others that have made false confessions and, yes, I have been hurt and taken advantage of at times. I also know a lot of guys that were not criminals when they went into the system, but they sure were when they got out. So if we have the best prison system in the world why do we have the largest per capita incarceration rate in the world and the recidivism rates are 70% or more? The ministry my husband and I now have is not limited to prisoners, it is for everyone. This whole country needs revival. Our hearts have grown cold to the things of the Lord. We no longer honor Him or serve Him. I don't know what kind of details you need. Here is it; first you preach the gospel, people hear it and repent, you teach them how to be disciples and what their purpose is, and then you send them out to do it. I have worked with murderers, pedophiles, prostitutes, thieves, drug addicts, and the mentally ill of all kinds. I have been in all kinds of ministries for years now. The Word of God, the Holy Spirit, and my anointing have lead me and guided me in every situation. I have been hurt and ripped off at times, but that is just the pitfalls of ministry. I am certainly not a perfect individual and I make mistakes all the time, but the Lord has been my guide, protected me, and brought me through everything.

 

[Sandy Zalecki]

I have been trained as mp correctional officer. our justice system is a joke. revenge? what exactly is justice if we have a teen who killed four people and just gets probation? what about the teen I know that was raped by an adult, he was 13 and she 19. he was given a beer without his knowledge and was drunk and even then refuse sex and told his mom. the girl gets 6 months.im all for forgiving and I like chuck colson's ideas but we also need to punish those break the laws fairly. to say im a Christian now and im sorry, and realize the guy isn't wise. let them serve and repay the just sentence.

the torah has no mention of payment to the widow for murder of the husband, its life for life.

Yes, the system is broken all the way around. I have seen the other side of it where men go to prison for years over something very petty. Then, my cousin was married to an Enron exec and he spent 18 months in prison for stealing 76 million dollars. There are no quick answers except for trusting in the Lord for the answers. ALL of us need to do that, from correctional officers to inmates.

 

[jasoncran]

the army give rapists one year.i understand your wanting to save them by ALL means. if I go work corrections its not to save them but to guard them fairly and impartially.sure I can be a witness to them but im a guard first and must be fair to all at all times.the problem isn't with the justice system but the fact that people wont live for Christ. we cant save them all. even jesus said few be on the path to heaven. we are in the ride of hell on this one. I hate to say that. we can reach those that god wants to save, but its up to him.

 

[jasoncran]

Yes, the system is broken all the way around. I have seen the other side of it where men go to prison for years over something very petty. Then, my cousin was married to an Enron exec and he spent 18 months in prison for stealing 76 million dollars. There are no quick answers except for trusting in the Lord for the answers. ALL of us need to do that, from correctional officers to inmates.

I never said it was a fair system. its not. I know god would hate that.

 

[jasoncran]

Jason, maybe it wasn't murder but it was a crime and servitude to the victim(s) was the punishment. Restitution paid directly to the victim or thier stead was the point and it was a reform toward this type of punishment which Chuck Colson sought.

Sandy, Have you visited and questioned the victims or survivors of the perpetrators you say weren't such and were wrongly accused? Have you gone to the court and researched the court documents on these so-called wronly accused and and have you talked to the officers invoved in the arrest? Or are you going only on what the imnate tells you? To pronounce someone innocent who has been judged by the justice system guilty is no simple venture of just listening to the accused. If ask them, practically every imnate is innocent.

To whoever, FYI: Prison employees in Mi are put through a lengthy orientation, I think it was a month or so, before they are even allowed to start working and then they are on probation for a year I think. One of the first things they have explained to them is that prison staff are NOT there to accuse, sentence, or punish the inmate for the crime that got them to prison. That job exclusively belongs to the justice system. The physically restrictive boundaries of the prison design and structure are the punishment and the staff's job is to merely ensure that those boundaries with all of their neccessary rules and such are obeyed during the imnates incarceration: the three primary perrogatives being that imnates not escape, inmates not harm staff, and inmates not harm other imnates. Inmates inheratly see the prison staff as the punishers but staff only have to do that if the imnate dishonors the justice system and refuses to serve their time peaceably and accoding to the rules the prison has to create and enforce to ensure that all inmates are able to serve their time and do it peacably. Granted, you have guards who dishonor the justice/prison system and violate the rules governing their duty just as you have police and priests and mayors who dishonor the perrogatives of their office. But that is not a problem of the system but rather an inherrant problem of humanity and it will eventually be found in any system or program run by humans including church or the Church.

that's done in all prisons in the us and the military its mandated by federal laws, and under the aca.

 

[Sandy Zalecki]

Jason, maybe it wasn't murder but it was a crime and servitude to the victim(s) was the punishment. Restitution paid directly to the victim or thier stead was the point and it was a reform toward this type of punishment which Chuck Colson sought.

Sandy, Have you visited and questioned the victims or survivors of the perpetrators you say weren't such and were wrongly accused? Have you gone to the court and researched the court documents on these so-called wronly accused and and have you talked to the officers invoved in the arrest? Or are you going only on what the imnate tells you? To pronounce someone innocent who has been judged by the justice system guilty is no simple venture of just listening to the accused. If ask them, practically every imnate is innocent.

To whoever, FYI: Prison employees in Mi are put through a lengthy orientation, I think it was a month or so, before they are even allowed to start working and then they are on probation for a year I think. One of the first things they have explained to them is that prison staff are NOT there to accuse, sentence, or punish the inmate for the crime that got them to prison. That job exclusively belongs to the justice system. The physically restrictive boundaries of the prison design and structure are the punishment and the staff's job is to merely ensure that those boundaries with all of their neccessary rules and such are obeyed during the imnates incarceration: the three primary perrogatives being that imnates not escape, inmates not harm staff, and inmates not harm other imnates. Inmates inheratly see the prison staff as the punishers but staff only have to do that if the imnate dishonors the justice system and refuses to serve their time peaceably and accoding to the rules the prison has to create and enforce to ensure that all inmates are able to serve their time and do it peacably. Granted, you have guards who dishonor the justice/prison system and violate the rules governing their duty just as you have police and priests and mayors who dishonor the perrogatives of their office. But that is not a problem of the system but rather an inherrant problem of humanity and it will eventually be found in any system or program run by humans including church or the Church.

No body ever believes an inmate, we all know that. I don't believe them all either, but some of them I do. When one officer investigates a complaint and finds nothing to file charges for and then another one comes along six months later and makes someone a criminal, I believe them. Especially since this person had no criminal record before and they have been out of prison for over a decade and has had no record since. I just saw a news report where a prosecutor wanted to put a 7 year old on the sex offender registry for kissing a girl on the cheek during recess. It wasn't the girl's parents, it was the prosecutor. When a female inmate says she was repeatedly raped by guards, I believe her because I've heard the same story over and over again. NO ONE is perfect. Officers can lie, court records can lie, people can be forced into false confessions, and usually the one with the most money wins. "Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me." (Matt. 25:40) NKJ I was told one time that I would be persecuted for my stance on inmates. My reply was "Oh really, ya think." Even the worst of criminals have a heart that needs Jesus. They CAN change, but how are they going to change if no one goes to them with the love of Christ?

 

[jasoncran]

im not saying officers aren't corrupt but if a female inmate is raped, the facts would have to be covered up as most jails and correctional facilities have cameras. that would mean the shift superversior , the captian, colonel and warden would have to be that corrupt. can it happen yes.

 

[Sandy Zalecki]

im not saying officers aren't corrupt but if a female inmate is raped, the facts would have to be covered up as most jails and correctional facilities have cameras. that would mean the shift superversior , the captian, colonel and warden would have to be that corrupt. can it happen yes.

Have you ever seen "The Shawshank Redemption?" That was a true story.

 

[jasoncran]

Have you ever seen "The Shawshank Redemption?" That was a true story.

of course, I know what the prisons do, but that is besided the point. I can say the same with "instutionalasation" under any government help program. ie tanf, and also the army itself. im not saying the system is perfect but Im an mp , im not called to leave the service, if I do go into this its because I have no other job available to travel to oci other locale means I need a job.

 

[Sparkey]

There was a man who while in jail gave his testimony. Prior to being incarcerated he had promised himself that if he found himself locked up he would get himself a Bible and study it. So then, after drinking and being arrested for his crime, and being sentenced to a year in jail, he kept his promise. That's the way he describes how he met Jesus Christ, our Lord.

He began to talk to others in jail and others were moved to read more about the Lord. His wife heard what he was doing and she threatened to leave him because she felt their lifestyle (drugs) was being threatened. He allowed it. Did not flinch. I don't know the end of the story but do pray that he is strengthened in his walk.

At an AA meeting I was once told by a recently released convicted murdered that he "sometimes feels like busting melons." My reply?

"Buck, that's probably a feeling that you should resist."

He replied, "Heck, I know that."

So I asked him, "Do you ever find yourself feeling better things too?"

And as your conversation continued he said, "Yeah, that's why I wanted to talk to you, you see, there's this church..."

I told him that if he felt better in the company of those who attended that church (it was Greek Orthodox) then it would seem good for him to continue to go there. It wasn't about what church but instead it was about him getting the support he needed.

These are just a couple examples of God meeting people where they need Him. That's something our Good Physician does, isn't it?

 

[Sandy Zalecki]

Sou

There was a man who while in jail gave his testimony. Prior to being incarcerated he had promised himself that if he found himself locked up he would get himself a Bible and study it. So then, after drinking and being arrested for his crime, and being sentenced to a year in jail, he kept his promise. That's the way he describes how he met Jesus Christ, our Lord.

He began to talk to others in jail and others were moved to read more about the Lord. His wife heard what he was doing and she threatened to leave him because she felt their lifestyle (drugs) was being threatened. He allowed it. Did not flinch. I don't know the end of the story but do pray that he is strengthened in his walk.

At an AA meeting I was once told by a recently released convicted murdered that he "sometimes feels like busting melons." My reply?

"Buck, that's probably a feeling that you should resist."

He replied, "Heck, I know that."

So I asked him, "Do you ever find yourself feeling better things too?"

And as your conversation continued he said, "Yeah, that's why I wanted to talk to you, you see, there's this church..."

I told him that if he felt better in the company of those who attended that church (it was Greek Orthodox) then it would seem good for him to continue to go there. It wasn't about what church but instead it was about him getting the support he needed.

These are just a couple examples of God meeting people where they need Him. That's something our Good Physician does, isn't it?

Sounds like it to me.

 

[Sandy Zalecki]

Sparrowhawke, are you saying that our primary consideration for selecting a church should be which one do we think serves our iindividual needs best-which one we feel best in?

How about picking the church that will allow you to serve using your talents the best?

 

[Sandy Zalecki]

I am the moderator of this forum and things are getting out of hand. We need to take this conversation back to the original intent of the thread.

 

[jeff77]

I think I did not make myself clear. If you have ever been a part of the American "justice" system it has become more about revenge than justice. Instead of people taking revenge on others themselves, they go to the American justice system and have them do it for them. Because of the private prison system our prisons have become nothing more than warehouses for people who don't have enough money to fight the system. They become criminals in that system rather than getting the help that they need and being restored to society. It is all about the money. The government gives big money to private prisons to warehouse people. Is that your form of "justice?" There are those who have committed crimes that do need to be behind bars and pay for what they did, but others that are there because someone else want to get revenge need to be restored and released. God's justice is real and true, but ours is flawed and is corrupted to the max right now.

I don't see how people can use the American justice system to get revenge for someone that committed something like rape or murder. If someone murders they are automatically going to be charged by the state whether the family of the victim wants them to face charges or lesser sentence or not. If someone does you harm you may feel like giving them a second chance or something and face a lesser sentence but what if they did harm to someone else after they got out which could have been prevented if they would have received the full sentence. I know it's just a general example.

 

[Christ_empowered]

This thread touched me at a deep, personal level. After years of torment (involuntary ECT, for instance), I just snapped on a family member one day. I wasn't sent to prion or even given a criminal record. I was sent off to Teen Challenge to be rehabilitated. Very few people get that opportunity. I did everything--counseling, community service, good behavior, etc.--that was asked of me.

3 years after completing TC, I finally came to true repentance. I am now fully rehabilitated, and I'm a completely different person.

 

[Sandy Zalecki]

This thread touched me at a deep, personal level. After years of torment (involuntary ECT, for instance), I just snapped on a family member one day. I wasn't sent to prion or even given a criminal record. I was sent off to Teen Challenge to be rehabilitated. Very few people get that opportunity. I did everything--counseling, community service, good behavior, etc.--that was asked of me.

3 years after completing TC, I finally came to true repentance. I am now fully rehabilitated, and I'm a completely different person.

This touches my heart. Thank the Lord for your chance to see what His love is about.