Free Will is a Fallen Will

[jerry63935]

Really?
These quotes are all from JUST PAGE 17:

• Calvinism makes no logical sense.

• Attack on the person, not the idea.

• The response to a request to explain what I believe (It also ignored the fact that more than half of that post was directly quoted scripture that supported the Baptist beliefs).

• Passive-aggressive stating that the JLB interpretation is both the TRUTH and the words of Jesus, while implying that the Particular Baptist beliefs are neither.

• Implies Calvinism is false while offering no supporting evidence.

• Any sentence that includes the words “every Calvinist” is probably an attack on the group. This one certainly is:
  • Calvinists make things up
  • Calvinists talk in circles
  • Calvinists say derogatory things (I can’t imagine why given the outpouring of Love and Respect illustrated on just Page 17 alone)
  • Calvinists don’t believe what they teach.

• Calvinists talk in circles.
• Calvinists lack common sense.

• Calvinist beliefs are replaced with a strawman that has already been denied. (God predetermines evil).
• Calvinism is then attacked as its strawman (terrible)

• Nothing could be more evil than Calvinism (strawman)
• Real Calvinism:
  • Hell is full of sinners.
  • Everyone is already condemned for rejecting Christ
  • God‘s choice is not a whim.
  • Who is damned is determined by the actions of the sinner.
  • We humans were given a chance to save ourselves ... everyone failed the test of the law.
  • We cannot save ourselves, so God saves us ... Calvinism does teach this because it is clearly taught in scripture (Like Ephesians 2:1-10)

• Calvinists are like the Jehovah’s Witnesses (thanks, that was nice.)

• Affirming that Calvinists are like Jehovah’s Witnesses
• Calvinists are afraid to say what we believe (except when we do and the response is “why should I care what you believe?”
• Non-Calvinist mind readers know all of our motives for not wanting to post and be insulted.

• Calvinists completely misunderstand all scripture.

• An “appeal to authority” ... no experts have ever agreed with Calvinism ... without even bothering to offer any ”authority”.
• Everyone knows that Calvinism is wrong, so there is no need to even bother trying to prove it or explain.

You are either a fool, a liar or you simply believe that every word of slander is true. [or you are splitting hairs over the fact that written defamation is libel rather than slander]. In any case, you can wonder no more why Calvinists are reluctant to share. Our motives are much simpler.

We get tired of repeating ourselves, of the insults and of the lies about what we believe. Nothing we say will change your mind about what we believe. I am not looking for anyone to convert to Calvinism. I just want to be accused of believing something that I actually believe.

if i posted regular in Carm which is owned by a calvinist. i was to show you the things said to me.. a poster named theo famous quote you misrepresented me or that is a straw man answer .. my advice is toughen up. quit calling foul... i been in the ministry 20 years. i have heard lots things said to me. i like listening to john macarthur.. but i dont always agree with him. see you keep using we. its your battle . i fight my own battles the apostle paul fought his..

 

[JLB]

The response to a request to explain what I believe (It also ignored the fact that more than half of that post was directly quoted scripture that supported the Baptist beliefs).

Like I said, I agree with scripture.

 

[JLB]

Any sentence that includes the words “every Calvinist” is probably an attack on the group. This one certainly is:

• Calvinists make things up
• Calvinists talk in circles
• Calvinists say derogatory things (I can’t imagine why given the outpouring of Love and Respect illustrated on just Page 17 alone)
• Calvinists don’t believe what they teach.

These have been my observations over the years.



JLB

 

[JLB]

You have redefined “predestined”.

For one thing, God only “predestines” to salvation. [Romans 8:30]
For those damned, God does not need to do anything but allow sinful people to do evil. [Romans 1:24]

That is what I read in scripture.
That is what the reformed “Pilgrims” read in scripture.
That is what the English “Separatists” read in scripture.
That is what those at the Synod of Dort read in scripture.
That is what John Calvin read in scripture.
That is what Augustine of Hippo read in scripture.
That is what the Apostle Paul read in scripture.

This is what Jim Jones read in the scriptures.
This is what Jehovah’s witness’s read in scripture.
This is what Mormons read in scripture.
This is what David Koresh read in the scriptures.



JLB

 

[JLB]

You have redefined “predestined”.

For one thing, God only “predestines” to salvation. [Romans 8:30]
For those damned, God does not need to do anything but allow sinful people to do evil. [Romans 1:24]

That is what I read in scripture.
That is what the reformed “Pilgrims” read in scripture.
That is what the English “Separatists” read in scripture.
That is what those at the Synod of Dort read in scripture.
That is what John Calvin read in scripture.
That is what Augustine of Hippo read in scripture.
That is what the Apostle Paul read in scripture.

Romans 1:24 is contextually linked to the passages that follow, which include these -



Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them. Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, whoever you are who judge, for in whatever you judge another you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things. But we know that the judgment of God is according to truth against those who practice such things. And do you think this, O man, you who judge those practicing such things, and doing the same, that you will escape the judgment of God? Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 1:24-2:8


Paul in writing to the Church in Rome, reminds them, Jews included, that ... do you think this, O man, you who judge those practicing such things, and doing the same, that you will escape the judgment of God?


Paul writes to the Church plainly, who will receive eternal life:


God who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:

• eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
• but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath

Everyone as you mentioned, from the Church in the first century to the reformed teachers today, has read this passage.


The question is, do you believe it?

I do.

Therefore I fear and tremble, and turn away from ungodliness and sin, to practice righteousness, and be led by the Spirit.

• eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;

JLB

 

[atpollard]

This is what Jim Jones read in the scriptures.
This is what Jehovah’s witness’s read in scripture.
This is what Mormons read in scripture.
This is what David Koresh read in the scriptures.

JLB

“and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.” [Rom 8:30 NASB]

 

[atpollard]

(1) if i posted regular in Carm which is owned by a calvinist. i was to show you the things said to me.. a poster named theo famous quote you misrepresented me or that is a straw man answer

(2) .. my advice is toughen up. quit calling foul... i been in the ministry 20 years. i have heard lots things said to me. i like listening to john macarthur.. but i dont always agree with him.

(3) see you keep using we. its your battle . i fight my own battles the apostle paul fought his..

1. So your response is you were lied about, so now it is your turn to get even ... nice.

3. I use “we” because I count myself among those who believe in a Sovereign God who acts monergisticly, rather than a synergistic god that requires our permission to do what He claims in scripture.

 

[JLB]

“and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.” [Rom 8:30 NASB]

Yes.

Good scripture.

This is what Jim Jones read in the scriptures.
This is what Jehovah’s witness’s read in scripture.
This is what Mormons read in scripture.
This is what David Koresh read in the scriptures.


Also, this is a popular scripture that Calvinist’s use to convince people that they can never become lost, once they are saved.

They usually take this scripture as a stand alone verse to validate their teaching, without showing the context in which this verse is framed.


Look at how Romans 8 starts out —


There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Vs 1


that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. Vs 4


Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. Vs 12-14


For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. Vs 18-20


Do you understand what Paul is implying here by this statement... the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God?


Do you honestly believe that Christians who choose to walk according to the flesh are “Justified”, declared to righteous?


Be honest.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Passive-aggressive stating that the JLB interpretation is both the TRUTH and the words of Jesus, while implying that the Particular Baptist beliefs are neither.

I have the scriptures, the words of Jesus Christ and His Apostles, to read and study.

These are the words of truth.

The teachings of Baptist Theology or Calvinism or Reformed Theology come from the teachings of man.


JLB

 

[JLB]

• Affirming that Calvinists are like Jehovah’s Witnesses
• Calvinists are afraid to say what we believe (except when we do and the response is “why should I care what you believe?”
• Non-Calvinist mind readers know all of our motives for not wanting to post and be insulted.

Affirming that many different people and denominations and sects all read the same scriptures.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Implies Calvinism is false while offering no supporting evidence.

It’s a simple statement.

When your aquatinted with the truth the false is easy to recognize what is false.


JLB

 

[atpollard]

Do you honestly believe that Christians who choose to walk according to the flesh are “Justified”, declared to righteous?


Be honest.

No, I do not believe that. I have never believed that. My personal “go to” verse for understanding the reality of the complete transformation that is SALVATION is ...

Ephesians 2:1-10

And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. [Eph 2:1-10 NASB]​

Thus I do not believe that those that choose to walk according to the flesh could have been transformed by God as Ephesians describes. John 3 speaks of the same transformation as being “born again”. One cannot be un-born and one cannot be un-resurrected.

So that is not what I believe, nor am I aware of any orthodox theology that teaches it.

 

[atpollard]

When your aquatinted with the truth the false is easy to recognize what is false.

... Said every cult leader who ever existed. (Time to shake the dust off, all conversation with you has become unprofitable.)

 

[JLB]

... Said every cult leader who ever existed. (Time to shake the dust off, all conversation with you has become unprofitable.)

Says every Calvinist who has no scripture to validate their man made teachings.



JLB

 

[JLB]

One cannot be un-born and one cannot be un-resurrected.

So that is not what I believe, nor am I aware of any orthodox theology that teaches it.

I never mentioned the unbiblical phrase of being “un-born”, or
“un-resurrected”.

This is the typical tactic of Calvinist’s, making up something I didn’t say, and then applying what I didn’t say to the conversation.

Then to top it off you make the comment “nor am I aware of any orthodox theology that teaches it”... about what I didn’t say.


Here is what the scripture says about those Christians who walk according to the flesh and practice the works of the flesh.


Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21



Do you believe Christians who practice the works of the flesh, will inherit the kingdom of God?



JLB

 

[JLB]

1. So your response is you were lied about, so now it is your turn to get even ... nice.

3. I use “we” because I count myself among those who believe in a Sovereign God who acts monergisticly, rather than a synergistic god that requires our permission to do what He claims in scripture.

I edited your post.

Tone down your rhetoric.

I don’t care how you speak against me, or make up things I didn’t say, but don’t use that type of tone with anyone else in my area, or you won’t be here long.



JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

No, but you did say that God did not predetermine everything ...



So let me ask again:

1. What happened that God did not already know was going to happen?
2. What happened that God did not already account for in His plan?

If you happen to respond that there is nothing that God did not “already know was going to happen” and nothing that God did not “already account for in His plan”, then I offer the following additional question that you might answer rather than just gathering to slander Calvinists as a group for being illogical and refusing to answer simple questions about our unbiblical, man-made false exegesis of scripture. (something that our opponents avoid by skipping over all exegesis and simply repeating the same single verses plucked from context over and over and over.)

1. Can you name or identify an example of something that God already knows is going to happen and God has already accounted for in his plan, but is not predetermined?

Hi atpollard,,,,
I was just closing down...it's 2 am here.
will reply tomorrow,,,

however, I wanted to apologize if I said anything that made you feel slandered....
that's a big word and I don't think I ever slandered you, but if that's how you feel, then I am sorry.

 

[GodsGrace]

No, but you did say that God did not predetermine everything ...

Why is this a problem to understand?
God DID NOT predetermine everything....
Because God did not predetermine everything does not mean that He did not KNOW
what was going to happen. God knows everything...He's omniscient, right?

He stands outside of time and looks down and sees everything happening all at the same time....There is no "time" for God.
God KNOWS all that is going to happen
but does not PREDETERMINE it.
Knowing is not the same as causing.

Can you not agree to this?

So let me ask again:

1. What happened that God did not already know was going to happen?
2. What happened that God did not already account for in His plan?

1. Nothing.

2. You'd have to tell me which plan?
If you mean salvation economy, then nothing.
If you mean anything else that man does, then the answer is that God works all things for the good and for His good pleasure. God takes what WE DO,,,and makes it work out for HOW HE desires this "tapestry" to be at the end.

(using the bullet feature of any Word program makes replying in this format a little difficult...not asking you to change your method since you might use it for other stuff).


If you happen to respond that there is nothing that God did not “already know was going to happen” and nothing that God did not “already account for in His plan”, then I offer the following additional question that you might answer rather than just gathering to slander Calvinists as a group for being illogical and refusing to answer simple questions about our unbiblical, man-made false exegesis of scripture. (something that our opponents avoid by skipping over all exegesis and simply repeating the same single verses plucked from context over and over and over.)

1. Can you name or identify an example of something that God already knows is going to happen and God has already accounted for in his plan, but is not predetermined?

[/QUOTE]
Answer: God did not predetermine everything.
God did not predetermne that I would join this forum.
He did not predetermine that I would marry my husband.
He did not predetermine that I would have two children.
All of the above were of my own libertarian free will.

God predetermined salvation through Christ.
He KNEW Adam would fail, but did not CAUSE this failure.
Because God KNEW Adam would fail...He PLANNED a method for man to save Himself, if man so desired.

There are some that believe in open theism.
I don't ascribe to this, but someone that teaches theology has been trying to explain to me that God knows what is going to happen but only when it happens. He's a closed theist. I can't understand this so I cannot comment on it...but it would be really good to understand it.

Again,,,I don't believe I've slandered you.
This is causing harm to your character which will be known by all
due to statements I have made about you.
This has not happened .

You must be referring to some comments between a couple of members here, me included, but we did not mention any names and were speaking in general. I do appreciate the time you put in to let us understand better what you believe, and I'm sure other members feel the same. It's not the method of this forum to attack anyone.

 

[GodsGrace]

(I did not read it.)

Once again, I do not care what John Calvin said in the Institutes. Few have read it and none take it as a statement of their theology.

Please give it a read.
I only wanted to know if you agree with what it says.
You keep posting a catechism which, really, should not be done.
And yet you refuse something from the Institutes that I THINK
you must surely agree with.

Is it too harsh for you to acknowledge?
Basically it says that God predestines some to salvation
and some to destruction.
Based ON NOTHING that we can determine.
Do YOU believe God does this?
This is what calvinism teaches.
As I've said---sometimes you state what a calvinist would and
sometimes you don't. Very confusing.

 

[GodsGrace]

Really?
These quotes are all from JUST PAGE 17:

• Calvinism makes no logical sense.

• Attack on the person, not the idea.

• The response to a request to explain what I believe (It also ignored the fact that more than half of that post was directly quoted scripture that supported the Baptist beliefs).

• Passive-aggressive stating that the JLB interpretation is both the TRUTH and the words of Jesus, while implying that the Particular Baptist beliefs are neither.

• Implies Calvinism is false while offering no supporting evidence.

• Any sentence that includes the words “every Calvinist” is probably an attack on the group. This one certainly is:
  • Calvinists make things up
  • Calvinists talk in circles
  • Calvinists say derogatory things (I can’t imagine why given the outpouring of Love and Respect illustrated on just Page 17 alone)
  • Calvinists don’t believe what they teach.

• Calvinists talk in circles.
• Calvinists lack common sense.

• Calvinist beliefs are replaced with a strawman that has already been denied. (God predetermines evil).
• Calvinism is then attacked as its strawman (terrible)

• Nothing could be more evil than Calvinism (strawman)
• Real Calvinism:
  • Hell is full of sinners.
  • Everyone is already condemned for rejecting Christ
  • God‘s choice is not a whim.
  • Who is damned is determined by the actions of the sinner.
  • We humans were given a chance to save ourselves ... everyone failed the test of the law.
  • We cannot save ourselves, so God saves us ... Calvinism does teach this because it is clearly taught in scripture (Like Ephesians 2:1-10)

• Calvinists are like the Jehovah’s Witnesses (thanks, that was nice.)

• Affirming that Calvinists are like Jehovah’s Witnesses
• Calvinists are afraid to say what we believe (except when we do and the response is “why should I care what you believe?”
• Non-Calvinist mind readers know all of our motives for not wanting to post and be insulted.

• Calvinists completely misunderstand all scripture.

• An “appeal to authority” ... no experts have ever agreed with Calvinism ... without even bothering to offer any ”authority”.
• Everyone knows that Calvinism is wrong, so there is no need to even bother trying to prove it or explain.

You are either a fool, a liar or you simply believe that every word of slander is true. [or you are splitting hairs over the fact that written defamation is libel rather than slander]. In any case, you can wonder no more why Calvinists are reluctant to share. Our motives are much simpler.

We get tired of repeating ourselves, of the insults and of the lies about what we believe. Nothing we say will change your mind about what we believe. I am not looking for anyone to convert to Calvinism. I just want to be accused of believing something that I actually believe.

Just saw this.
Everything I stated is a personal opinion of mine and my opinion cannot change.
I'd be willing to go through each statement, but it's very time consuming...
Just one:
I DO believe that calvinism makes no logical sense.
How is this slandering YOU?

Why would Jesus state what He did in Matthew 23:37 if predestination made any sense?
Jesus is lamenting over Jerusalem because they were NOT WILLING to come to Him.
Did Jesus not know that God predestines everything?
Why would He cry over a condition that God Father predestined?
It makes no sense.