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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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Free Will is a Fallen Will
- Thread starter atpollard
- Start date
God predestined or predetermined, Adam and Eve for a purpose; a purpose that would involve mankind.
To be fruitful and multiply; to subdue the earth and have dominion over everything.
This can only be accomplished by those who are of His image.
Jesus is the example of how this was to be accomplished.
Adam and Eve chose to obey Satan rather than God.
Predestination does not = Salvation
JLB
atpollard
Member
You have redefined “predestined”.
For one thing, God only “predestines” to salvation. [Romans 8:30]
For those damned, God does not need to do anything but allow sinful people to do evil. [Romans 1:24]
That is what I read in scripture.
That is what the reformed “Pilgrims” read in scripture.
That is what the English “Separatists” read in scripture.
That is what those at the Synod of Dort read in scripture.
That is what John Calvin read in scripture.
That is what Augustine of Hippo read in scripture.
That is what the Apostle Paul read in scripture.
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atpollard
Member
What happened that God did not already know was going to happen ...
What happened that God did not already account for in His plan ...
What happened that caught God be surprise and made God adjust His plan?
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
Paul certainly did NOT read predestination in scripture.
Augustine did not believe in double pre-destination.
HOW HAVE I redefined PREDESTINATION?
Does God choose who will be saved
and who will be lost?
Do you believe the following?
Institutes 3.21.5
5. The predestination by which God adopts some to the hope of life, and adjudges others to eternal death, no man who would be thought pious ventures simply to deny; but it is greatly caviled at, especially by those who make prescience its cause. We, indeed, ascribe both prescience and predestination to God; but we say, that it is absurd to make the latter subordinate to the former (see chap. 22 sec. 1). When we attribute prescience to God, we mean that all things always were, and ever continue, under his eye; that to his knowledge there is no past or future, but all things are present, and indeed so present, that it is not merely the idea of them that is before him (as those objects are which we retain in our memory), but that he truly sees and contemplates them as actually under his immediate inspection. This prescience extends to the whole circuit of the world, and to all creatures. By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which he determined with himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death. This God has testified, not only in the case of single individuals; he has also given a specimen of it in the whole posterity of Abraham, to make it plain that the future condition of each nation lives entirely at his disposal:
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GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
There's something we're not communicating to each other.
DID I SAY GOD WAS SURPRISED?
NO!
I said God knows what is going to happen and ALLOWS IT.
I said God DID NOT PLAN EVERYTHING THAT HAPPENS...
Just a plan of salvation because He KNEW man would fail....
this does not mean HE PREDETERMINED the failure.
YOU believe God predetermined the failure.
If NOT...
Please clarify because you're statements ARE NOT CLEAR.
You claim to be reformed,,,but you give me doubts at times.
Why would I care about studying to know what Baptist’s wrote 350 years ago?
I have the words of Jesus Christ and His Apostles, in the New Testament, along with the Holy Spirit to lead me and guide me into the truth.
When you become acquainted with what is the truth, then it’s easy to recognize what is false.
I agree with the scriptures you quote.
What I don’t always agree with, is the teachings of Calvinism.
JLB
Wondering, I was hoping for some honest discussion from him.
So far, every Calvinist is the same, they make up things you didn’t say, they talk in circles and say derogatory things, because they dont even believe what they teach.
It’s truly sad.
JLB
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
Calvinists (the accepted term these days) talk in circles becasuse what they believe
does not make common sense.
The other member attempted to explain the difference between allowing evil and causing
evil and the explanation was totally not understandable because it was not correct.
This is because there is no common sense way to explain that difference since God does allow evil,,,,but He does not create it...as every Christian believes.
But in calvin's theology, God predetermines everything,,,which means He also predetermines evil. This sounds terrible and so the doctrine is danced around and not made clear.
If you think of it...what could be more evil than allowing innocent humans to go to hell for nothing that they PERSONALLY did,,,but only through the whim of a God that chooses who will be saved and who will be damned based on NOTHING at all --- and not giving we humans the opportunity to save ourselves.
What could be more evil than that?
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
The above is true.
What I find is that they have a problem in declaring what they believe.
It's as if they're afraid of stating simply what they believe to be true.
If someone is convinced of the doctrine they believe, they should be able
to explain it well and in ways that make logical sense.
Every scripture that is posted is exegeted incorrectly...now they may say that it
seems incorrect to US,,,but actually there are few theologians that agree with Calvinism.
It's just that they're so out front these days that it seems it's the only doctrine around.
This is also very popular amoung the young Christians coming to the faith...
atpollard
Member
No, but you did say that God did not predetermine everything ...
So let me ask again:
- What happened that God did not already know was going to happen?
- What happened that God did not already account for in His plan?
If you happen to respond that there is nothing that God did not “already know was going to happen” and nothing that God did not “already account for in His plan”, then I offer the following additional question that you might answer rather than just gathering to slander Calvinists as a group for being illogical and refusing to answer simple questions about our unbiblical, man-made false exegesis of scripture. (something that our opponents avoid by skipping over all exegesis and simply repeating the same single verses plucked from context over and over and over.)
- Can you name or identify an example of something that God already knows is going to happen and God has already accounted for in his plan, but is not predetermined?
God is all knowing . the big issue is being predetermined if you get saved or predetermined you die and go to hell . God does not predetermined people to hell. its a choice remember luke 16 the rich man in hell lifted up his eyes in torment ? just 1 drop water to cool his tongue..h then wanted some one to be raised from the dead to warn his family. the reply they had there chance. the free gift of salvation is freely given freely rececived
atpollard
Member
If you are walking down the street and one person calls you a “Horse’s behind”, then maybe they are having a bad day. If two people call you a “Horse’s behind”, you might start to wonder of it is true. If three people call you a “Horse’s behind”, then you should probably check for a tail.
If EVERY Calvinist that you talk to turns out to be a jerk, then just maybe, there might be some flaw in how you are talking to them. Of course, you will probably just shrug this off as another petty attack because you are right and all Calvinists are just ignorant, arrogant jerks.
atpollard
Member
Would you quote the exact response?
I do not remember that story ending with a claim that everyone had the freedom to choose heaven or hell. I would like you to SHOW me what it actually says.
no one has slandered calvinist .for years i posted in carm forum .i can't begin to count the insults the names false teacher i got in there. every time i fired back i got penalized . which did not bother me.... the thing of it is ....in a forum you can b what ever you chose expert theologian know kroin greek . but the moment you challenge them... the golden cow gets kicked over all hell breaks lose ...been there done that
%85 of them i have encountered are ....FACTS
atpollard
Member
Really?
These quotes are all from JUST PAGE 17:
- Calvinism makes no logical sense.
- Attack on the person, not the idea.
- The response to a request to explain what I believe (It also ignored the fact that more than half of that post was directly quoted scripture that supported the Baptist beliefs).
- Passive-aggressive stating that the JLB interpretation is both the TRUTH and the words of Jesus, while implying that the Particular Baptist beliefs are neither.
- Implies Calvinism is false while offering no supporting evidence.
- Any sentence that includes the words “every Calvinist” is probably an attack on the group. This one certainly is:
- Calvinists make things up
- Calvinists talk in circles
- Calvinists say derogatory things (I can’t imagine why given the outpouring of Love and Respect illustrated on just Page 17 alone)
- Calvinists don’t believe what they teach.
- Calvinists talk in circles.
- Calvinists lack common sense.
- Calvinist beliefs are replaced with a strawman that has already been denied. (God predetermines evil).
- Calvinism is then attacked as its strawman (terrible)
- Nothing could be more evil than Calvinism (strawman)
- Real Calvinism:
- Hell is full of sinners.
- Everyone is already condemned for rejecting Christ
- God‘s choice is not a whim.
- Who is damned is determined by the actions of the sinner.
- We humans were given a chance to save ourselves ... everyone failed the test of the law.
- We cannot save ourselves, so God saves us ... Calvinism does teach this because it is clearly taught in scripture (Like Ephesians 2:1-10)
- Calvinists are like the Jehovah’s Witnesses (thanks, that was nice.)
- Affirming that Calvinists are like Jehovah’s Witnesses
- Calvinists are afraid to say what we believe (except when we do and the response is “why should I care what you believe?”
- Non-Calvinist mind readers know all of our motives for not wanting to post and be insulted.
- Calvinists completely misunderstand all scripture.
- An “appeal to authority” ... no experts have ever agreed with Calvinism ... without even bothering to offer any ”authority”.
- Everyone knows that Calvinism is wrong, so there is no need to even bother trying to prove it or explain.
You are either a fool, a liar or you simply believe that every word of slander is true. [or you are splitting hairs over the fact that written defamation is libel rather than slander]. In any case, you can wonder no more why Calvinists are reluctant to share. Our motives are much simpler.
We get tired of repeating ourselves, of the insults and of the lies about what we believe. Nothing we say will change your mind about what we believe. I am not looking for anyone to convert to Calvinism. I just want to be accused of believing something that I actually believe.
atpollard
Member
(I did not read it.)
Once again, I do not care what John Calvin said in the Institutes. Few have read it and none take it as a statement of their theology.