Free Will is a Fallen Will

[GodsGrace]

Paragraph 1 said:

This is equivalent to the fact that Joseph’s brothers selling him into slavery in Egypt was also always part of God’s plan. In both cases, God KNEW before it happened that the sin would take place, God certainly could have prevented the sin from taking place, and in both the case of Adam and Joseph, God had not merely allowed the sin to take place, but God chose to use the sin and its consequences as clay in the hands of a potter to shape something far greater. Joseph saved millions of lives and gave us the imagery of the Passover as a foreshadow so we could understand the incarnation of God Himself when it came centuries later. God could have placed the tree out of Adam’s reach, but God chose instead to demonstrate His unimaginable love and start a work in motion that transforms “created creatures” into beloved children of God.

Paragraph 2 said:

While God allowed Joseph’s brothers to commit the sin of selling Joseph into slavery, God did not place that hatred of Joseph in their heart and compel them to do evil. In exactly the same way, God allowed Adam to be tempted and God used Adam’s failure as the catalyst for the far greater glory of the Incarnation, Crucifixion, resurrection and Pentecost. However, God did not place the evil thoughts into Adam, nor did God force Adam to sin.

I did not ignore the paragraphs. The circumstances are parallel since for both Adam and Joseph, God allowed sin and God used sin for His glory, but God did not cause the sin.

That is why my answer depends on your definition of “predestine”. If you say “predestine” to mean that God caused evil actions by men, then I disagree.

You know atpollard, I find that the reformed have special ways of getting out of the concept that God created evil.

Somehow or other, God predestined everything, but He is still not responsible for our personal sinning. This does indeed require special linguistic skills none of us happen to have.

Let me try again to go over the two paragraphs....
If it was always God's PLAN to have the brothers sell Joseph into slavery...
1. OF COURSE God knew about it----He planned it !

2. If something is in God's PLAN...then God PREDESTINED that plan.

Then you speak of God ALLOWING this sin to happen.

If God plans something....it's going to happen.
This is DIFFERENT than ALLOWING it to happpen.

If God ALLOWS something to happen, then He's allowing a person to make a libertarian free will choice to sin and HE ALLOWS the sin. God is thus not RESPONSIBLE for the sin.

If God PLANNED for the person to sin,,,then HE is PERSONALLY RESPONSIBLE for the person's sin.,

Reformed doctrine removes PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY for sinning because God predestined that sin...or PLANNED IT, as you prefer to say --- same difference.

 

[GodsGrace]

atpollard

Then you said this:

God did not place that hatred of Joseph in their heart and compel them to do evil. In exactly the same way, God allowed Adam to be tempted and God used Adam’s failure as the catalyst for the far greater glory of the Incarnation, Crucifixion, resurrection and Pentecost. However, God did not place the evil thoughts into Adam, nor did God force Adam to sin.

Every Christian agrees that God allows evil and sinning.
God did not use Adam's sin as a catalyst for the greater glory of the incarnation....

Adam's sinning was the REASON for the incarnation, crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus.
The salvation plan was necessary because Adam freely sinned and God allowed it.

Would YOU say God decreed it?

 

[GodsGrace]

The Law is part of a Covenant, so I am confused by your statement. Perhaps you could be specific and we could look at an actual bi-lateral covenant that you are asking about.

Here is the whole conversation again:

I asked you WHY would God make a bi-lateral covenant with man if it's HE that plans everything in advance.

You replied in post no. 277:


******************************************************************************
To teach us this ...

Well then, am I suggesting that the law of God is sinful? Of course not! In fact, it was the law that showed me my sin. I would never have known that coveting is wrong if the law had not said, "You must not covet." But sin used this command to arouse all kinds of covetous desires within me! If there were no law, sin would not have that power. At one time I lived without understanding the law. But when I learned the command not to covet, for instance, the power of sin came to life, and I died. So I discovered that the law's commands, which were supposed to bring life, brought spiritual death instead. Sin took advantage of those commands and deceived me; it used the commands to kill me. But still, the law itself is holy, and its commands are holy and right and good.

But how can that be? Did the law, which is good, cause my death? Of course not! Sin used what was good to bring about my condemnation to death. So we can see how terrible sin really is. It uses God's good commands for its own evil purposes.

So the trouble is not with the law, for it is spiritual and good. The trouble is with me, for I am all too human, a slave to sin. I don't really understand myself, for I want to do what is right, but I don't do it. Instead, I do what I hate. But if I know that what I am doing is wrong, this shows that I agree that the law is good. So I am not the one doing wrong; it is sin living in me that does it.

And I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. I want to do what is right, but I can't. I want to do what is good, but I don't. I don't want to do what is wrong, but I do it anyway. But if I do what I don't want to do, I am not really the one doing wrong; it is sin living in me that does it.

I have discovered this principle of life--that when I want to do what is right, I inevitably do what is wrong. I love God's law with all my heart. But there is another power within me that is at war with my mind. This power makes me a slave to the sin that is still within me. Oh, what a miserable person I am! Who will free me from this life that is dominated by sin and death? Thank God! The answer is in Jesus Christ our Lord. So you see how it is: In my mind I really want to obey God's law, but because of my sinful nature I am a slave to sin. [Romans 7:7-25 NLT]

*************************************************************************

Which, of course, is no answer...
So I replied, still in post 277:

****************************************************************

So if YOU, atpollard knows the above,,,,
Did GOD not know it?
He went ahead and made bi-lateral covenants anyway?

Was the law not sufficient to teach man the above???
GOD had to make a COVENANT????????

No, this does not make sense.
Can't come up with a good reason, can you?

P.S. I don't mean that in a snarky way...
it's an honest question.


Can you not answer?

 

[GodsGrace]

Who crucified Jesus?

Ultimately GOD did....
because, as scripture teaches,
God planned this from the beginning because He knew
man would sin (Adam) and He had already planned salvation for mankind.

Romans 4.24-25
24but for our sake also, to whom it will be credited, as those who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead,
25He who was delivered over because of our transgressions, and was raised because of our justification.

2 Corinthians 5:21
21He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

Yes. God does plan also...
But not as the reformed believe.

 

[GodsGrace]

The Law is part of a Covenant, so I am confused by your statement. Perhaps you could be specific and we could look at an actual bi-lateral covenant that you are asking about.

Ah.
OK.

This is my premise:

IF God plans everything, which I call predestination or determinism...
Then WHY would God make a bi-lateral covenant with man.....
Did God PLAN for man to fail?
Did God sadistically fool man into thinking man had any power in the deal?

We could speak of the Edenic Covenant.....
That was Bi-Lateral.

Or the Mosaic Covenant, that is the most popular one.
A bi-lateral covenant has blessings and curses...
man has the obligation of maintaining his part of the covenant.
For instance, in the Mosaic Covenant man was NOT ABLE to maintain his side of the covenant (bargain).

So why would God make a Covenant with a people that population?
If God plans everything, and He planned this....did He not know that the population would fail?
Was God just teasing of deluding the Israelites?

How would you explain a bi-lateral covenant?

 

[JLB]

God’s Decree (Particular Baptist Style)
1. From all eternity God decreed everything that occurs, without reference to anything outside himself.

• I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say, 'My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.' [Isa 46:10 NIV]
• In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, [Eph 1:11 NIV]
• Because God wanted to make the unchanging nature of his purpose very clear to the heirs of what was promised, he confirmed it with an oath. [Heb 6:17 NIV]
• For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." ... Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. [Rom 9:15, 18 NIV]

He did this by the perfectly wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably. Yet God did this in such a way that he is neither the author of sin nor has fellowship with any in their sin.

• When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; [Jas 1:13 NIV]
• This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. [1Jo 1:5 NIV]

This decree does not violate the will of the creature or take away the free working or contingency of second causes. On the contrary, these are established by God’s decree.

• Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed. They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen. [Act 4:27-28 NIV]
• Jesus answered, "You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above. Therefore the one who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin." [Jhn 19:11 NIV]

In this decree God’s wisdom is displayed in directing all things, and his power and faithfulness are demonstrated in accomplishing his decree.

• God is not human, that he should lie, not a human being, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill? [Num 23:19 NIV]
• Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will-- [Eph 1:3-5 NIV]

That’s a start from the 1868 Baptist Confession of Faith. That is what “Reformed” or “Calvinist” or “Particular” Baptists have believed the Bible teaches (not any man) for more than 150 years. There is more, but let’s see if you are even interested in hearing that much of what we really believe.

The Scriptures of the New Testament have been around for almost 2000 years.


Why do they need to be reformed, to line up with the beliefs of baptist’s that came about 150 years ago?




JLB

 

[atpollard]

You know atpollard, I find that the reformed have special ways of getting out of the concept that God created evil.

That’s because God uses evil as part of his plan without being the author if evil.

Let’s hypothetically say that I own a used car lot. So I purchase a Guard Dog with large teeth for the purpose of biting any thieves that sneak into my Used Car lot. One day a thief ignores the “KEEP OUT” sign and climbs over the tall Chainlink Fence. He does so, because he is a thief and it is in the nature of a thief to do those sort of things. So my Guard Dog bites him with its big teeth just as it was intended to.

Was it always my plan for the Guard Dog to bite any thieves that came into my Used Car Lot? YOU BET IT WAS!

Was it likely that a thief would climb into my Used Car Lot? In that neighborhood, it was a virtual certainty that it would happen more than once.

Am I responsible for the thief getting bitten because his getting bitten was always part of my plan from the moment I placed the Lot and the Dog in that location? NOPE. The Thief still chose to steal because that is what thieves do. The responsibility for his choice is on him and not on me. I just planned ahead on the fact that thieves would attempt to steal if given the opportunity.

 

[atpollard]

Would YOU say God decreed it?

I not only would, I believe that I have.

Without the fall, there would be no need for redemption and redemption was ALWAYS part of God’s plan. Jesus Christ our Redeemer was not a plan B made necessary because Adam sinned and destroyed God’s plan A.

 

[atpollard]

Can you not answer?

Sure, God never made any bi-later covenant.
The proof is that I asked you to name one and you were unable to name even a single bi-lateral covenant from scripture.

So I guess that there is no point arguing about imaginary bi-lateral covenants, Is there?

 

[atpollard]

Who crucified Jesus?

Ultimately GOD did....
because, as scripture teaches,
God planned this from the beginning because He knew
man would sin (Adam) and He had already planned salvation for mankind.

So you believe that the Roman Soldiers that whipped Him, shredding His skin and the men that drove nails into His hands and feet were guiltless in His death ... robotic puppets of God forced to perform sinful actions against their will?

What of the priests that arrested Jesus, testified falsely, blackmailed Pilate into crucifying Him? Were they also innocent puppets forced to commit sins against their will by a puppet master God?

 

[atpollard]

Did God PLAN for man to fail?

Yes.

Did God sadistically fool man into thinking man had any power in the deal?

No. That is not God’s motivation.

How would you explain a bi-lateral covenant?

I already did, but you told me that it did not answer the question. The LAW is a bi-lateral covenant that man cannot keep. It does not come as a surprise to God that man cannot keep the LAW. God already knew that even Adam (who had a much better chance than we do) could not keep the LAW when given just one rule whose only purpose was to give man a chance to honor God by obeying a rule that cost him nothing just for the sake of obeying God, and thereby acknowledging God as God.

It is people that believed, still believe, and probably always will believe that we can BE GOOD and OBEY GOD and DO SOMETHING to contribute to our righteousness. The covenant of Moses and the LAW was given so that we could try to keep the Law and fail. It was God’s plan that by trying and failing that the LAW would teach us that we cannot save ourselves. We need a Savior.

Only by failing at the covenant of the LAW, can we be made to understand the need for the Covenant of GRACE. Therein lies the great irony. The covenant of the LAW is bi-lateral to teach us that we cannot save ourselves and the covenant of GRACE is unilateral to teach us that God can save us.

That is why we Reformed make such a big deal about this.

 

[atpollard]

Why do they need to be reformed, to line up with the beliefs of baptist’s that came about 150 years ago?

Even you cannot be that ignorant of history to not know WHEN the Reformation took place and WHAT was being Reformed.

I cannot accept your post as an honest inquiry or response.
Don’t bother claiming that you want to know what I believe when your response SCREAMS otherwise.

 

[JLB]

Even you cannot be that ignorant of history to not know WHEN the Reformation took place and WHAT was being Reformed.

I cannot accept your post as an honest inquiry or response.
Don’t bother claiming that you want to know what I believe when your response SCREAMS otherwise.

Why would I care about studying to know what Baptist’s wrote 150 years ago?


I have the words of Jesus Christ and His Apostles, in the New Testament, along with the Holy Spirit to lead me and guide me into the truth.


When you become acquainted with what is the truth, then it’s easy to recognize what is false.


JLB

 

[JLB]

That is why we Reformed make such a big deal about this.

What theology were you reformed (improved) from?

Did you at one time hold to the teachings of Catholicism?


JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

That’s because God uses evil as part of his plan without being the author if evil.

Let’s hypothetically say that I own a used car lot. So I purchase a Guard Dog with large teeth for the purpose of biting any thieves that sneak into my Used Car lot. One day a thief ignores the “KEEP OUT” sign and climbs over the tall Chainlink Fence. He does so, because he is a thief and it is in the nature of a thief to do those sort of things. So my Guard Dog bites him with its big teeth just as it was intended to.

Was it always my plan for the Guard Dog to bite any thieves that came into my Used Car Lot? YOU BET IT WAS!

Was it likely that a thief would climb into my Used Car Lot? In that neighborhood, it was a virtual certainty that it would happen more than once.

Am I responsible for the thief getting bitten because his getting bitten was always part of my plan from the moment I placed the Lot and the Dog in that location? NOPE. The Thief still chose to steal because that is what thieves do. The responsibility for his choice is on him and not on me. I just planned ahead on the fact that thieves would attempt to steal if given the opportunity.

I could agree with your analogy if you clarify the followiing:

To my understanding determinism means that God truly plans EVERYTHING....
God decrees EVERYTHING...

So in the above scenario
God owns a used car lot.
God gets a guard dog to KEEP PEOPLE OUT...which is already wrong because God desires that all be saved...but let's continue...

A thief climbs into the yard --- because man is sinful

The guard dog bites the man ---

BUT
It is GOD that decreed all of the above.
It is GOD that predetermined all that would happen.
It is GOD that decreed the man would climb into the car lot.
It is GOD that then CAUSED the man to climb over the fence and be bitten because
it is GOD that PREDETERMINED EVERYTHING.

IOW,,,DID GOD PREDETERMINE EVERYTHING
OR NOT??????

Calvinism says He did.


Also, you can't expect US to know that catechism you keep posting.
It's your ANSWERS to us that familiarize us with your beliefs.
If you don't agree with my scenario...then you do not agree with Calvin.
Or Luther Or any of the reformation fathers.

I do fear that there is some misunderstanding between what you believe re
God ALLOWING evil
and God CREATING evil

You say He does not create evil....
If He decrees everything...then He decreed evil too.

 

[GodsGrace]

I not only would, I believe that I have.

Without the fall, there would be no need for redemption and redemption was ALWAYS part of God’s plan. Jesus Christ our Redeemer was not a plan B made necessary because Adam sinned and destroyed God’s plan A.

So you've just answered my question.
You state that GOD DECREES EVERYTHING.

In that case,,,your used car lot analogy is not correct.
In that case...God CAUSED THE FALL OF ADAM.
THE FALL WAS PLAN A....
BUT GOD STILL PLANNED IT.

This IS indeed determinism.
In determinism GOD FORCED the man to enter into the car lot.
In determinism God is responsible for the murder of someone...

You cannot get around this by fancy explanations that MAKE NO SENSE.

 

[GodsGrace]

Sure, God never made any bi-later covenant.
The proof is that I asked you to name one and you were unable to name even a single bi-lateral covenant from scripture.

So I guess that there is no point arguing about imaginary bi-lateral covenants, Is there?

No Bi-Lateral Covenant?

Are you serious?

 

[GodsGrace]

Who crucified Jesus?


So you believe that the Roman Soldiers that whipped Him, shredding His skin and the men that drove nails into His hands and feet were guiltless in His death ... robotic puppets of God forced to perform sinful actions against their will?

What of the priests that arrested Jesus, testified falsely, blackmailed Pilate into crucifying Him? Were they also innocent puppets forced to commit sins against their will by a puppet master God?

In determinism......
YES.

You'll have to explain the difference between
CAUSING EVIL
and ALLOWING EVIL MUCH BETTER than you have till now
in order to nullify this belief.

Every Christian believes that God ALLOWS EVIL.
But no Christian believes that God creates evil.

IF HE DID, then how would we be RESPONSIBLE for our sins?
And if we are NOT responsible for our sins...
WHY does God send some to hell?

Is this a just God?
Please don't refer to Romans.

Justice means getting what you deserve.
Does God give to sinners what THEY DESERVE
IF it is HE that CAUSES them to sin?

 

[JLB]

So you've just answered my question.
You state that GOD DECREES EVERYTHING.

In that case,,,your used car lot analogy is not correct.
In that case...God CAUSED THE FALL OF ADAM.
THE FALL WAS PLAN A....
BUT GOD STILL PLANNED IT.

This IS indeed determinism.
In determinism GOD FORCED the man to enter into the car lot.
In determinism God is responsible for the murder of someone...

You cannot get around this by fancy explanations that MAKE NO SENSE.

God determines or predestines us to be part of His plan.

Its up to us to believe and obey what He has determined for us to become and accomplish.


Very simple.


JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes.

Again,,,you state that God DID PLAN for Adam to fail.
He predetermined the fall of Adam.

God is surely a sadistic being.

No. That is not God’s motivation.

Interesting.
So why would God make a Bi-Lateral covenant with man IF HE KNEW
man would not be able to keep the covenant?

Do you realize that calvinism makes no LOGICAL sense?
No one can understand God fully,,,
But at least He makes sense to me....
How does a person worship a God that MAKES NO SENSE in His dealings
with mankind?

I already did, but you told me that it did not answer the question. The LAW is a bi-lateral covenant that man cannot keep. It does not come as a surprise to God that man cannot keep the LAW. God already knew that even Adam (who had a much better chance than we do) could not keep the LAW when given just one rule whose only purpose was to give man a chance to honor God by obeying a rule that cost him nothing just for the sake of obeying God, and thereby acknowledging God as God.

In post no. 309 you stated that God did NOT make any bi-lateral covenants with man.
At least now you say He did.....which He did. Fine.

The LAW is not a covenant....I have to assume you mean the Mosaic Covenant.
So you do seem to be agreeing with me....
Please follow along....

You say God KNEW man would not be able to keep the Mosaic Covenant which required man to obey the 10 Commandments.

AGAIN: If God KNEW man would NOT BE ABLE to keep the Mosaic Covenant....
WHY did God make this covenant with man?
We're told it was to be our teacher.....
But didn't God KNOW we wouldn't be able to keep it?

We on my side of the fence also know that God knew man would not keep the Mosaic Covenant...
BUT we also believe that man was FREE and had a libertarian free will to obey the covenant or not obey it.

If man was not free to obey it...then God was truly being deceiving by making this covenant at all.
Are we serving a deceitful God?

It is people that believed, still believe, and probably always will believe that we can BE GOOD and OBEY GOD and DO SOMETHING to contribute to our righteousness. The covenant of Moses and the LAW was given so that we could try to keep the Law and fail. It was God’s plan that by trying and failing that the LAW would teach us that we cannot save ourselves. We need a Savior.

I touched on this above. It barely scratches the surface.
My statements still stand.....in calvinist theology your above statement does not hold.
It does not hold because God PREDETERMINED EVERYTHING,,,including the fact that man cannot obey.

Here...I'll give YOU an analogy:

The God of calvinism creates a building.
The God of calvinism creates mankind.
He does not program mankind to have knowledge of painting.
He tells mankind to go paint the building...
KNOWING FULL WELL THAT HE MADE MANKIND UNABLE TO PAINT.
Mankind fails because he cannot paint.
God PUNISHES MANKIND FOR NOT BEING ABLE TO PAINT THE BUILDING.

Did God give to mankind what mankind deserves?
Is this a JUST GOD?
I think not.

Are we worshiping a God that is NOT JUST????

Only by failing at the covenant of the LAW, can we be made to understand the need for the Covenant of GRACE. Therein lies the great irony. The covenant of the LAW is bi-lateral to teach us that we cannot save ourselves and the covenant of GRACE is unilateral to teach us that God can save us.

That is why we Reformed make such a big deal about this.

Somehow or other you always find some language to not make God responsible, when, in calvinism HE IS RESPONSIBLE FOR EVERYTHING that happens.

As to the Covenant of grace....you could call it the New Covenant.
It is theologically not agreed upon whether or not the New Covenant is
bi-lateral or unilateral. A case could be made for it to be bi-lateral.
But I'm not here to discuss covenants...which I'd be happy to do BTW on another thread.

You can't have it both ways atpollard:
Either God decreed all or He didn't.
Which is it?