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Free Will is a Fallen Will

Yes, calvinism is based on free will...
a good toss up would be total depravity.

TULIP

T total depravity means we have no will of our own to decide for god.

U unconditional election means God chooses and not us because we have no free will to do so.

L limited atonement...Jesus died only for the elect...the others cannot be saved by their own will and desire to be saved.

I Irresistible grace...we have no free will to resist when God chooses us.

P perseverance of the saints...free will has no part in our persevering till the end.


All of the above can be substituted by Total Depravity.

I believe free will is the down fall of Calvinism...The name that is commonly associated with TULIP because of his popularity.
 
And how, exactly, does that change take place?
(that is the $64 question)
You ask how the change takes place between two states:
One of being a natural and unsaved man...
and one of being a spiritual and saved man....

This is how it takes place:

1. God has always revealed Himself to man. Before the bible was written, before the gospel was known, all over the world wherever man was present. No man has ever had an excuse.

Romans 1:19-20
19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.


2. God made His creation to love it.

John 3:16
16“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.


3. God desires for all men to be saved.

1 Timothy 2:3-4
3This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.


4. Men hear the gospel. (or know of Him instinctively as per 1.)

Romans 10:17
17So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.


5. They consciously decide to serve and love God... true love must be freely given.

Romans 10:10
10for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
 
I will, but you might want to consider that the translators placed those comas in the translations for a reason.

All the commas in the world won’t change words like brethren, or babes in Christ or carnal.



JLB
 
Please define carnal.

Based on the scriptures we are discussing, carnal means immature, someone who aligns themselves with ministers of Christ rather than Christ and His teachings. A babe in Christ.

And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ. I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able; for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men? For when one says, “I am of Paul,” and another, “I am of Apollos,” are you not carnal? 1 Corinthians 3:1-4


In Romans the meaning is associated with a mindset that is worldly, which if not changed will ultimately produce eternal death in the Christian who is carnally minded.


For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.
Romans 8:5-7


Then the Strongs says.

Strongs G4561 - sarx

  1. flesh (the soft substance of the living body, which covers the bones and is permeated with blood) of both man and beasts
  2. the body
    1. the body of a man
    2. used of natural or physical origin, generation or relationship
      1. born of natural generation
    3. the sensuous nature of man, "the animal nature"
      1. without any suggestion of depravity
      2. the animal nature with cravings which incite to sin
      3. the physical nature of man as subject to suffering
  3. a living creature (because possessed of a body of flesh) whether man or beast
  4. the flesh, denotes mere human nature, the earthly nature of man apart from divine influence, and therefore prone to sin and opposed to God

JLB
 
Please define carnal.
I like how JLB posts,,,,
but I'll give you a really easy meaning for carnal.

Carnal comes from carne.
It means meat.
It means the flesh.

What is flesh is flesh.
What is spirit is spirit.

Paul in 1 Corinthians 3:1 is speaking to Christians that are acting like those in the flesh....
Do we never sin?
Do we never act like those in the flesh?

When we do, we can be called carnal Christians because we give in to the flesh (sin).

Paul admonishes us to keep our mind on our spirit part....
and not keep our mind on our flesh part.
Romans 8:5
5For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.


John repeats this in his first letter.
1 John 1:9 speaks of sinning.
When we sin, we are responding to our flesh.

1 John 3:9 speaks of living (practicing) in sin.
A Christian will not live in the flesh.

They are different from each other.
 
Here is your quote calling yourself a Calvinist; a follower of the teachings of Calvin
A Calvinist is not a follower of the teachings of John Calvin.
I do not know how to state it any clearer than that.
You are free to research how Reformed believers came to be called “Calvinists” if you wish, but it will not change that fact. It will only lead down a 15th Century linguistic bunny trail.
 
All the commas in the world won’t change words like brethren, or babes in Christ or carnal.
JLB
No, they do not change the meaning of words. They just change which word is the Subject, Object and Verb of a sentence, and which words are adverbs, adjectives and clauses that act upon which Subject, Verb or Object.
 
Based on the scriptures we are discussing, carnal means immature
NONE of the Strong‘s definitions align with “immature”.
Until you and I can agree on the grammar of the sentence (what it actually says), anything I might offer beyond that observation would be meaningless and pointless.
 
I like how JLB posts,,,,
but I'll give you a really easy meaning for carnal.

Carnal comes from carne.
It means meat.
It means the flesh.

What is flesh is flesh.
What is spirit is spirit.

Paul in 1 Corinthians 3:1 is speaking to Christians that are acting like those in the flesh....
Do we never sin?
Do we never act like those in the flesh?

When we do, we can be called carnal Christians because we give in to the flesh (sin).

Paul admonishes us to keep our mind on our spirit part....
and not keep our mind on our flesh part.
Romans 8:5
5For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.


John repeats this in his first letter.
1 John 1:9 speaks of sinning.
When we sin, we are responding to our flesh.

1 John 3:9 speaks of living (practicing) in sin.
A Christian will not live in the flesh.

They are different from each other.
1 Corinthians 3:1
  • [KJV] And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, [even] as unto babes in Christ.
  • [NASB] And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh, as to infants in Christ.
  • [NIV] Brothers and sisters, I could not address you as people who live by the Spirit but as people who are still worldly--mere infants in Christ.
  • [NLT] Dear brothers and sisters, when I was with you I couldn't talk to you as I would to spiritual people. I had to talk as though you belonged to this world or as though you were infants in the Christian life.

Given all of what you said above, which of the following is true about 1 Corinthians 3:1 ...
  1. Paul had to speak to these carnal Christians as immature babes in Christ (as JLB claims)
  2. Paul had to speak to these immature Christians in the same manner that Paul speaks to carnal non-Christians and babes in Christ.
Are these Christians called CARNAL in verse 1, or does Paul only claim to speak to them LIKE he speaks to carnal men?
 
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A Calvinist is not a follower of the teachings of John Calvin.
I do not know how to state it any clearer than that.

If you don’t follow the teachings of Calvinism, then why do you call yourself a Calvinist, which refers to John Calvin and his theological traditions.


JLB
 
No, they do not change the meaning of words. They just change which word is the Subject, Object and Verb of a sentence, and which words are adverbs, adjectives and clauses that act upon which Subject, Verb or Object.

Brother, why would you refer to someone
“in Christ”, as a self proclaimed Christian?

A babe in Christ who follows other men rather than Christ and His teachings, is called carnal.


JLB
 
NONE of the Strong‘s definitions align with “immature”.
Until you and I can agree on the grammar of the sentence (what it actually says), anything I might offer beyond that observation would be meaningless and pointless.

Is a “babe” a reference to a person who is mature or immature?


JLB
 
1 Corinthians 3:1
  • [KJV] And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, [even] as unto babes in Christ.
  • [NASB] And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh, as to infants in Christ.
  • [NIV] Brothers and sisters, I could not address you as people who live by the Spirit but as people who are still worldly--mere infants in Christ.
  • [NLT] Dear brothers and sisters, when I was with you I couldn't talk to you as I would to spiritual people. I had to talk as though you belonged to this world or as though you were infants in the Christian life.

Given all of what you said above, which of the following is true about 1 Corinthians 3:1 ...
  1. Paul had to speak to these carnal Christians as immature babes in Christ (as JLB claims)
  2. Paul had to speak to these immature Christians in the same manner that Paul speaks to carnal non-Christians and babes in Christ.
Are these Christians called CARNAL in verse 1, or does Paul only claim to speak to them LIKE he speaks to carnal men?
Hi A,
I believe that immature Christians and babes in Christ is the same, so your question regarding 1 Cor 3:1 is not clear to me.

I'll tell you this...Paul calls these people BRETHREN, FRIENDS, in the YLT the word BRETHREN is used.....BROTHERS.

He is telling them that he's unhappy with their unspiritual dealings in the way they treat each other,,,and thus their view about God is not proper. He's telling them they're acting like babies and so this is how he'll treat them...feeding them milk, as before. IOW,,,they are STILL acting like babies...they are still acting in a carnal way...like when we sin (as I stated in my other post). When we sin we are still Christian but acting as carnal people would.

In verse 16, Paul tells these people in his letter,,,that they are the temple of God....and explains to them how important this is.
A carnally minded man is not saved and is not a temple of God...they were ACTING as a carnal man...but were BROTHERS.

1 Corinthians 3:16
16Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?

and verse 23
23and you belong to Christ; and Christ belongs to God.


How could you believe he was speaking to unsaved persons?
 
If you don’t follow the teachings of Calvinism, then why do you call yourself a Calvinist, which refers to John Calvin and his theological traditions.
JLB
Would it have killed you to just google it for yourself?

Calvinism (also called the Reformed tradition, Reformed Christianity, Reformed Protestantism, or the Reformed faith) is a major branch of Protestantism that follows the theological tradition and forms of Christian practice set down by John Calvin and other Reformation-era theologians.

Calvinists broke from the Roman Catholic Church in the 16th century. Calvinists differ from Lutherans on the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist, theories of worship, and the use of God's law for believers, among other things. The term Calvinism can be misleading, because the religious tradition which it denotes has always been diverse, with a wide range of influences rather than a single founder; however almost all of them drew heavily from the writings of Augustine of Hippo a millennium prior. In the context of the Reformation, Huldrych Zwingli began the Reformed tradition in 1519 in the city of Zürich. His followers were instantly labeled Zwinglians, consistent with the Catholic practice of naming heresy after its founder. Very soon, Zwingli was joined by Martin Bucer, Wolfgang Capito, William Farel, Johannes Oecolampadius and other early Reformed thinkers.

The namesake of the movement, French reformer John Calvin, renounced Roman Catholicism and embraced Protestant views in the late 1520s or early 1530s, as the earliest notions of later Reformed tradition were already espoused by Huldrych Zwingli. The movement was first called Calvinism, referring to John Calvin, by Lutherans who opposed it. Many within the tradition find it either an indescriptive or an inappropriate term and would prefer the word Reformed to be used instead. The most important Reformed theologians include Calvin, Zwingli, Martin Bucer, William Farel, Heinrich Bullinger, Peter Martyr Vermigli, Theodore Beza, and John Knox. In the twentieth century, Abraham Kuyper, Herman Bavinck, B. B. Warfield, J. Gresham Machen, Karl Barth, Martyn Lloyd-Jones, Cornelius Van Til, Gordon Clark, and R. C. Sproul were influential. Contemporary Reformed theologians include J. I. Packer, John MacArthur, Timothy J. Keller, David Wells, and Michael Horton.” -Wikipedia


... Like I said, Calvinists are not followers of the teachings of John Calvin and the explanation of why they are called Calvinists leads down a 16th Century (I stand corrected on the Century) rabbit trail.
 
A Calvinist is not a follower of the teachings of John Calvin.
I do not know how to state it any clearer than that.
You are free to research how Reformed believers came to be called “Calvinists” if you wish, but it will not change that fact. It will only lead down a 15th Century linguistic bunny trail.
A, you're right that John Calvin did not believe everything "calvinism" teaches...but this is what it has come to be called. Maybe you should stop fighting this title and just accept it? You're not going to change this habit which is ingrained into Christianity.
 
I believe that immature Christians and babes in Christ is the same, so your question regarding 1 Cor 3:1 is not clear to me.
Then let me attempt to clarify.

You said:
Paul in 1 Corinthians 3:1 is speaking to Christians that are acting like those in the flesh....
Are the people to whom Paul is speaking actually living in the flesh, or are they acting LIKE people that live in the flesh?
(Technically, all Paul is actually saying is that because of the way these BROTHERS were acting, Paul had to talk to them the way Paul talked to carnal people or babes in Christ. Anything Paul says about how these people are actually acting or their spiritual state does not come in verse 1. Verse 1 is alll about how Paul spoke to them.

When we do, we can be called carnal Christians because we give in to the flesh (sin).
Where does scripture actually call someone a Carnal Christian?


Romans 8:5
5For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit
Are “those who set their minds on the things of the flesh“ in Romans 8:5 really Christians?
Are there Christians with their minds set on the Spirit and Christians with their minds set on the Flesh?

John repeats this in his first letter.
1 John 1:9 speaks of sinning.
When we sin, we are responding to our flesh
Is “responding to our flesh” really the same as “setting our minds on things of the flesh”?
Which is really a “carnal“ man? Both?

1 John 3:9 speaks of living (practicing) in sin.
A Christian will not live in the flesh
Which is it? Is not the very definition of a “carnal Christian” a Christian that is living in the flesh?
That is what you claim those in 1 Corinthians 3:1 are ... Carnal Christians ... babes in Christ who are living in the flesh instead of the spirit.
 
A, you're right that John Calvin did not believe everything "calvinism" teaches...but this is what it has come to be called. Maybe you should stop fighting this title and just accept it? You're not going to change this habit which is ingrained into Christianity.
I am not fighting the title. I was accused of following the teachings of the man John Calvin, rather than the Bible, because I called myself a Calvinist ...
Just exactly why those who follow the teachings of Calvin, are always arguing in the face of scripture, exalting their man made beliefs against the knowledge of God.

So I clarified that a Calvinist does not follow the teachings of the man ...
Not Calvin. Scripture as affirmed at the Synod of Dort and again in the London Confession and over and over by every generation that has taken up the cause of supporting the Sovereignty of God over the power of the will of man.

Mostly Romans and Ephesians, just as a point of fact, since they deal with the salvific relationship between God and man more than most other books.

I was then asked ...
If you don’t follow the teachings of Calvinism, then why do you call yourself a Calvinist, which refers to John Calvin and his theological traditions.

Which led us here.
 
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