Free Will is a Fallen Will

[atpollard]

So what’s your point?

I already made one of them ... it is irrational to assume that Jonah exercised a neutral (untainted) Free Will and came to the conclusion that active opposition to the will of God was a good idea. To reach that decision requires a fallen nature and a corrupted mind. One spoken of in Romans 3 as "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE; THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD; ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE." ... one spoken of in Ephesians 2 as “And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.”

That is not a human will free to choose good or evil with equal impartiality. That is a human will that is a “slave to sin” [John 8:34 Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin.”]

My next point will need to wait until I have more time.

 

[JLB]

Untrue. John Calvin did not believe in Limited Atonement. :tongue

I don’t know what John Calvin believed, because I didn’t know him personally.


You seem to know what he believed.


You claim to be a Calvinist.


What does a Calvinist believe, if not the teachings of John Calvin?


If not, then why do you call yourself a Calvinist.



JLB

 

[JLB]

As stated previously, different people mean different things

Yes, that’s the problem.

 

[JLB]

Already asked and answered.
For the same reason that other people that believe the Bible and accept the Reformed Theology presented in places like the book of Romans and Ephesians are called “Calvinists”.

I don’t find the word Calvinist in the scriptures.

I’m asking you, why you call yourself a Calvinist, not why other people call themselves Calvinist.


What is Reformed Theology?


Why do you feel the scriptures need to be reformed?

What’s wrong with the words and definitions of scripture?


Why not study, believe and teach the doctrine of Christ?


Whoever comes to Me, and hears My sayings and does them, I will show you whom he is like: He is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid the foundation on the rock. And when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently against that house, and could not shake it, for it was founded on the rock. But he who heard and did nothing is like a man who built a house on the earth without a foundation, against which the stream beat vehemently; and immediately it fell. And the ruin of that house was great.” Luke 6:47-49




JLB

 

[JLB]

I already made one of them ... it is irrational to assume that Jonah exercised a neutral (untainted) Free Will and came to the conclusion that active opposition to the will of God was a good idea.

I don’t intend to speculate on what was going through Jonah’s mind, as to why he made the choice to disobey God.

I’m glad he repented, so he could preach to Nineveh.



JLB

 

[atpollard]

I don’t find the word Calvinist in the scriptures.

I’m asking you, why you call yourself a Calvinist, not why other people call themselves Calvinist.


What is Reformed Theology?


Why do you feel the scriptures need to be reformed?

What’s wrong with the words and definitions of scripture?


Why not study, believe and teach the doctrine of Christ?


Whoever comes to Me, and hears My sayings and does them, I will show you whom he is like: He is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid the foundation on the rock. And when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently against that house, and could not shake it, for it was founded on the rock. But he who heard and did nothing is like a man who built a house on the earth without a foundation, against which the stream beat vehemently; and immediately it fell. And the ruin of that house was great.” Luke 6:47-49

JLB

You are baiting me.
That is not nice.

 

[JLB]

You are baiting me.
That is not nice.

It’s a simple question.

Why do you call yourself a Calvinist?


I call myself a Christian.

Some people call themselves Catholic, or Jehovah Witness, or Morgan, or Baptist...


If you don’t want to answer, then that is your choice.



JLB

 

[atpollard]

If you don’t want to answer, then that is your choice.

You mean “If you don’t want to keep answering the same question over and over, then that is your choice.”
I have answered, several times.
You have simply chosen to ignore the answer.

 

[JLB]

You mean “If you don’t want to keep answering the same question over and over, then that is your choice.”
I have answered, several times.
You have simply chosen to ignore the answer.

What Post was it, where you answered it.

 

[atpollard]

What Post was it, where you answered it.

Here ...

Not Calvin. Scripture as affirmed at the Synod of Dort and again in the London Confession and over and over by every generation that has taken up the cause of supporting the Sovereignty of God over the power of the will of man.

Mostly Romans and Ephesians, just as a point of fact, since they deal with the salvific relationship between God and man more than most other books.

A Calvinist is not a follower of the teachings of John Calvin.
I do not know how to state it any clearer than that.
You are free to research how Reformed believers came to be called “Calvinists” if you wish, but it will not change that fact. It will only lead down a 15th Century linguistic bunny trail.

Would it have killed you to just google it for yourself?

”Calvinism (also called the Reformed tradition, Reformed Christianity, Reformed Protestantism, or the Reformed faith) is a major branch of Protestantism that follows the theological tradition and forms of Christian practice set down by John Calvin and other Reformation-era theologians.

Calvinists broke from the Roman Catholic Church in the 16th century. Calvinists differ from Lutherans on the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist, theories of worship, and the use of God's law for believers, among other things. The term Calvinism can be misleading, because the religious tradition which it denotes has always been diverse, with a wide range of influences rather than a single founder; however almost all of them drew heavily from the writings of Augustine of Hippo a millennium prior. In the context of the Reformation, Huldrych Zwingli began the Reformed tradition in 1519 in the city of Zürich. His followers were instantly labeled Zwinglians, consistent with the Catholic practice of naming heresy after its founder. Very soon, Zwingli was joined by Martin Bucer, Wolfgang Capito, William Farel, Johannes Oecolampadius and other early Reformed thinkers.

The namesake of the movement, French reformer John Calvin, renounced Roman Catholicism and embraced Protestant views in the late 1520s or early 1530s, as the earliest notions of later Reformed tradition were already espoused by Huldrych Zwingli. The movement was first called Calvinism, referring to John Calvin, by Lutherans who opposed it. Many within the tradition find it either an indescriptive or an inappropriate term and would prefer the word Reformed to be used instead. The most important Reformed theologians include Calvin, Zwingli, Martin Bucer, William Farel, Heinrich Bullinger, Peter Martyr Vermigli, Theodore Beza, and John Knox. In the twentieth century, Abraham Kuyper, Herman Bavinck, B. B. Warfield, J. Gresham Machen, Karl Barth, Martyn Lloyd-Jones, Cornelius Van Til, Gordon Clark, and R. C. Sproul were influential. Contemporary Reformed theologians include J. I. Packer, John MacArthur, Timothy J. Keller, David Wells, and Michael Horton.” -Wikipedia


... Like I said, Calvinists are not followers of the teachings of John Calvin and the explanation of why they are called Calvinists leads down a 16th Century (I stand corrected on the Century) rabbit trail.

I am not fighting the title. I was accused of following the teachings of the man John Calvin, rather than the Bible, because I called myself a Calvinist ...


So I clarified that a Calvinist does not follow the teachings of the man ...


I was then asked ...


Which led us here.

The church that had an exclusive hold on Europe in the 1500’s and enforced ITS will with the full power of the State did.
(Those who ignore history are condemned to relive it.)

The Reformation was a return to Biblical teaching from 1500 years of tradition moving the church away from that teaching. The blatant “sale” of salvation to buy your dead loved ones out of purgatory and into heaven was the final catalyst that demanded that the Church be Reformed or abandoned to complete apostasy.

Lutherans and Presbyterians are descended from those Reformers that read scripture for themselves and came to the conclusion that God saves entire “households” (who should all be baptized into a covenant relationship) and see a biblical call for submission to a church hierarchy. The Baptists are descended from those Reformers that read scripture for themselves and came to the conclusion that God saves “individuals” (who should be baptized when they personally believe) and see a biblical call for the autonomy of each local gathering of believers answering to Christ alone as the only head of His Church.

To tell anyone who is theologically descended from either group of Reformers that they need to follow Scripture rather than men is condescending and misses the reality that we have been doing exactly that for 500 years. It is only because of the work of the Reformers to translate the Bible into vernacular languages (often at the cost of their lives) that you even have the option to read the Bible for yourself without first learning Latin at the Roman Catholic Church.

What are the teachings of John Calvin (Since you are certain that I am following them) and where in his writings do they appear?

I am anxious to learn since I have NEVER read any of the writings of Calvin (or felt any desire to).

I have read scripture and came to believe that all of man was corrupted by the fall (our flesh has a natural attraction for sin; our mind is inclined towards sinful thoughts and our soul lacks peace and unity with God) which aligns with what modern Reformed Theologians call “Total Depravity” or “Total Inability” because this corruption of our body, mind and spirit render us incapable of doing what God commands (Love God and our neighbor per the greatest commandments) in our own power and without supernatural help from God.

I have read scripture and come to believe that God does not select people for salvation because those saved are somehow better than everyone else or that there is some innate merit in those saved that made them deserving of salvation while the people that go to hell are less deserving of salvation. I found out that modern Reformed Theologians have a term for this called “Unmerited Favor” or “Unconditional Election”.

I could continue, but you are unlikely to believe me this time any more than any of the previous times that I have told you that I follow scripture rather than the teachings of the man John Calvin.

You state that you would like to talk about scripture, but you continue to post false assertions about what I believe and what Calvinism believes, so we never get past this one point. It is also a mark of hubris to claim that YOUR beliefs are scripture and those of everyone that disagrees is following the teachings of men. Another person who made the same claim that you make Joseph Smith (author of the Newest Testament ... the Book of Mormon). He had no use for past or present theologians either since he knew exactly what the Bible really meant.

Already asked and answered.
For the same reason that other people that believe the Bible and accept the Reformed Theology presented in places like the book of Romans and Ephesians are called “Calvinists”.

 

[atpollard]

I call myself a Calvinist because I believe that the Bible teaches Reformed Sotierology (commonly called TULIP) and “Calvinism” is the the common theological term for someone that embraces that view of Sotierology. It is not, and has never been, about following the teachings of John Calvin (which I have explained repeatedly in varying historic detail).

You keep making the false statement that a Calvinist is someone that follows the teachings of John Calvin ...

Just exactly why those who follow the teachings of Calvin, are always arguing in the face of scripture, exalting their man made beliefs against the knowledge of God.

Here is your quote calling yourself a Calvinist; a follower of the teachings of Calvin

If you don’t follow the teachings of Calvinism, then why do you call yourself a Calvinist, which refers to John Calvin and his theological traditions.

If Paul called them carnal for saying “I am of Paul”, an Apostle of Jesus Christ, then what do you suppose he say about people who claim they are of Calvin?

Reformed Theology comes from the teachings of John Calvin.

• Calvinism is the teachings of John Calvin.
• Arminianism is the teachings of Arminius.

So far I haven’t really seen why you call yourself a Calvinist, other than you are a follower of his teachings.

What does a Calvinist believe, if not the teachings of John Calvin?

If not, then why do you call yourself a Calvinist.

... which ignore my repeated explanation that a Calvinist is not a student of John Calvin.

 

[JLB]

I call myself a Calvinist because I believe that the Bible teaches Reformed Sotierology (commonly called TULIP) and “Calvinism” is the the common theological term for someone that embraces that view of Sotierology. It is not, and has never been, about following the teachings of John Calvin (which I have explained repeatedly in varying historic detail).

You keep making the false statement that a Calvinist is someone that follows the teachings of John Calvin ...

... which ignore my repeated explanation that a Calvinist is not a student of John Calvin.

Why you call yourself a Calvinist, is up to you.

However, you don’t speak for all of Calvinism, so why other people call themselves Calvinist is strictly up to them.


It can mean many different things to different people.


What would you call a follower of Jesus Christ and His teachings?




JLB

 

[JLB]

I call myself a Calvinist because I believe that the Bible teaches Reformed Sotierology (commonly called TULIP) and “Calvinism” is the the common theological term for someone that embraces that view of Sotierology. It is not, and has never been, about following the teachings of John Calvin (which I have explained repeatedly in varying historic detail).

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, on why you call yourself a Calvinist.

“Calvinism” is the the common theological term for someone that embraces that view of Sotierology.

Where did the term TULIP come from?


Here is what one European University states:


Calvinism was one of the most groundbreaking movements of the reformation, and is a crucial part of European History. This long-standing religious movement was founded by the theologian and preacher John Calvin. His beliefs, associated with the denomination of Calvinism, are summed up by the acronym TULIP.


This may not be what you believe, but is widely understood to be what many people believe.


JLB

 

[atpollard]

Where did the term TULIP come from?

First verbal use was in 1905.
First recorded documentation of the acronym “TULIP” was in 1913.
Entered common usage in 1932 through Loraine Boettner’s popular book, The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination.

(The actual teachings, under different names, are from the Synod of Dort in 1618-1619 and are based on the Holy scriptures written during the First Century AD.)

 

[JLB]

First verbal use was in 1905.
First recorded documentation of the acronym “TULIP” was in 1913.
Entered common usage in 1932 through Loraine Boettner’s popular book, The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination.

(The actual teachings, under different names, are from the Synod of Dort in 1618-1619 and are based on the Holy scriptures written during the First Century AD.)

So TULIP has just come about in the last 100 years?


?

 

[JLB]

First verbal use was in 1905.
First recorded documentation of the acronym “TULIP” was in 1913.
Entered common usage in 1932 through Loraine Boettner’s popular book, The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination.

(The actual teachings, under different names, are from the Synod of Dort in 1618-1619 and are based on the Holy scriptures written during the First Century AD.)

So you disagree with the statement made by the European University that associates TULIP, with John Calvin?


Calvinism was one of the most groundbreaking movements of the reformation, and is a crucial part of European History. This long-standing religious movement was founded by the theologian and preacher John Calvin. His beliefs, associated with the denomination of Calvinism, are summed up by the acronym TULIP.


Your belief is TULIP, isn’t associated with the teachings John Calvin?



JLB

 

[JLB]

... which ignore my repeated explanation that a Calvinist is not a student of John Calvin.

It seems many people don’t agree with you, as this statement indicates.


Calvinism was one of the most groundbreaking movements of the reformation, and is a crucial part of European History. This long-standing religious movement was founded by the theologian and preacher John Calvin. His beliefs, associated with the denomination of Calvinism, are summed up by the acronym TULIP.




JLB

 

[atpollard]

Your belief is TULIP, isn’t associated with the teachings John Calvin?

John Calvin did not believe in Limited Atonement (the L in TULIP). John believed that it was possible that Jesus died for only His sheep, but that a scriptural case could be made for Jesus dying for all mankind (as the second Adam), so the concept of Limited Atonement went further than Scripture would support as an absolute certainty.

I leave it to you to decide if the man that rejected the L in TULIP could be the founder of TULIP. The Synod of Dort later affirmed Limited Atonement (although it called it by another name since they did not speak or write in English).

 

[atpollard]

His beliefs, associated with the denomination of Calvinism

Could you google the “denomination of Calvinism” for me?
I have never heard of a Calvinist or Calvinism denomination.

The Presbyterian Church believes TULIP and is “Reformed” (their term) but the denomination is called Presbyterian and not Calvinism. There are many Reformed Churches that believe TULIP but they call themselves Reformed with a denomination for each nationality (ie. Dutch Reformed Church).

So I find these quotes factually inaccurate.

 

[JLB]

Could you google the “denomination of Calvinism” for me?
I have never heard of a Calvinist or Calvinism denomination.

I’ll be glad to look it up in the Bible.

What book is it in?