Free Will is a Fallen Will

[PeterJens]

What struck me was the idea we choose in a neutral way.
Clearly our choices are driven by motivation, outcome and perception. But core to it all is emotional randomness.

Suicides are often driven short periods of a mood swing. But the individual still chooses to act. And it is this choice upon which free will hangs.
Paul talks of sowing to the flesh or to the Spirit, one leading to death and one to eternal life. These appear to link repeated choices to eternal outcomes.

In Christ our will becomes freer less bound to sin, desiring glory to the King. But it is still free to choose. Jesus talks of daily carrying a cross, dedication and choice.

Sounds like God is looking for our mature choice in Him. The prayer alone in a room receives reward.

 

[JLB]

Would it have killed you to just google it for yourself?

”Calvinism (also called the Reformed tradition, Reformed Christianity, Reformed Protestantism, or the Reformed faith) is a major branch of Protestantism that follows the theological tradition and forms of Christian practice set down by John Calvin and other Reformation-era theologians.

Calvinists broke from the Roman Catholic Church in the 16th century. Calvinists differ from Lutherans on the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist, theories of worship, and the use of God's law for believers, among other things. The term Calvinism can be misleading, because the religious tradition which it denotes has always been diverse, with a wide range of influences rather than a single founder; however almost all of them drew heavily from the writings of Augustine of Hippo a millennium prior. In the context of the Reformation, Huldrych Zwingli began the Reformed tradition in 1519 in the city of Zürich. His followers were instantly labeled Zwinglians, consistent with the Catholic practice of naming heresy after its founder. Very soon, Zwingli was joined by Martin Bucer, Wolfgang Capito, William Farel, Johannes Oecolampadius and other early Reformed thinkers.

The namesake of the movement, French reformer John Calvin, renounced Roman Catholicism and embraced Protestant views in the late 1520s or early 1530s, as the earliest notions of later Reformed tradition were already espoused by Huldrych Zwingli. The movement was first called Calvinism, referring to John Calvin, by Lutherans who opposed it. Many within the tradition find it either an indescriptive or an inappropriate term and would prefer the word Reformed to be used instead. The most important Reformed theologians include Calvin, Zwingli, Martin Bucer, William Farel, Heinrich Bullinger, Peter Martyr Vermigli, Theodore Beza, and John Knox. In the twentieth century, Abraham Kuyper, Herman Bavinck, B. B. Warfield, J. Gresham Machen, Karl Barth, Martyn Lloyd-Jones, Cornelius Van Til, Gordon Clark, and R. C. Sproul were influential. Contemporary Reformed theologians include J. I. Packer, John MacArthur, Timothy J. Keller, David Wells, and Michael Horton.” -Wikipedia


... Like I said, Calvinists are not followers of the teachings of John Calvin and the explanation of why they are called Calvinists leads down a 16th Century (I stand corrected on the Century) rabbit trail.

We are called Christians, because we follow Christ and His teachings. His teachings don’t need to be “reformed”.



Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you. 1 Timothy 4:16



JLB

 

[JLB]

Not in verse 1.

Yes in verse 1, Paul refers to babes in Christ, immature believers, as carnal.


And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ. 1 Corinthians 3:1


The reason he says they are carnal, and immature, is that they claim they are followers of men, rather than Christ.


I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able; for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men? For when one says, “I am of Paul,” and another, “I am of Apollos,” are you not carnal? 1 Corinthians 3:2-4


If Paul called them carnal for saying “I am of Paul”, an Apostle of Jesus Christ, then what do you suppose he say about people who claim they are of Calvin?




JLB

 

[JLB]

Immature.

Was “babe” the SUBJECT, VERB or OBJECT of the sentence in verse 1? (Hint: none of the above).

Brother all the grammar gymnastics in the world isn’t going to change “babes in Christ”, into a mature Christian.


A babe in Christ is a reference to an immature Christian, not an unbeliever who is a self proclaimed Christian.


People who follow the teachings of denominations or other men are described by Paul as carnal, and immature; Babes in Christ.




JLB

 

[JLB]

So I clarified that a Calvinist does not follow the teachings of the man ...

Reformed Theology comes from the teachings of John Calvin.

• Calvinism is the teachings of John Calvin.
• Arminianism is the teachings of Arminius.

Very simple.


Now, if you want to discuss the Bible and the topic of this thread which you started, then please do so, with scripture.


Honestly it sounds like you are trying to validate the T in TULIP, which stands for total depravity, which is a doctrine of Calvinism, or Reformed Theology.


Whatever the case, I will be glad to hear you out, just please use scripture.



JLB

 

[atpollard]

We are called Christians, because we follow Christ and His teachings. His teachings don’t need to be “reformed”.

The church that had an exclusive hold on Europe in the 1500’s and enforced ITS will with the full power of the State did.
(Those who ignore history are condemned to relive it.)

The Reformation was a return to Biblical teaching from 1500 years of tradition moving the church away from that teaching. The blatant “sale” of salvation to buy your dead loved ones out of purgatory and into heaven was the final catalyst that demanded that the Church be Reformed or abandoned to complete apostasy.

Lutherans and Presbyterians are descended from those Reformers that read scripture for themselves and came to the conclusion that God saves entire “households” (who should all be baptized into a covenant relationship) and see a biblical call for submission to a church hierarchy. The Baptists are descended from those Reformers that read scripture for themselves and came to the conclusion that God saves “individuals” (who should be baptized when they personally believe) and see a biblical call for the autonomy of each local gathering of believers answering to Christ alone as the only head of His Church.

To tell anyone who is theologically descended from either group of Reformers that they need to follow Scripture rather than men is condescending and misses the reality that we have been doing exactly that for 500 years. It is only because of the work of the Reformers to translate the Bible into vernacular languages (often at the cost of their lives) that you even have the option to read the Bible for yourself without first learning Latin at the Roman Catholic Church.

 

[atpollard]

Very simple.

Ok, it is very simple and I have both explained and demonstrated from other sources that it is not true.
So at this point, I bow out of a conversation where no one is listening, but just waiting to talk.

 

[JLB]

The church that had an exclusive hold on Europe in the 1500’s and enforced ITS will with the full power of the State did.
(Those who ignore history are condemned to relive it.)

The Reformation was a return to Biblical teaching from 1500 years of tradition moving the church away from that teaching. The blatant “sale” of salvation to buy your dead loved ones out of purgatory and into heaven was the final catalyst that demanded that the Church be Reformed or abandoned to complete apostasy.

The Church of the Lord Jesus Christ, follows Him, not the teachings of Catholicism, Calvinism, Arminianism, or any other teachings of man.


On that Day, many will find out too late that the way that leads to life is difficult and few find it.


Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. John 14:6


Following His teachings and commandments to the end, and not straying from the truth is how we remain in Christ.


Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9



He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1 John 2:4



JLB

 

[JLB]

Ok, it is very simple and I have both explained and demonstrated from other sources that it is not true.
So at this point, I bow out of a conversation where no one is listening, but just waiting to talk.

Other sources are simply the opinions of man.


Let’s discuss scripture, and let the truth guide us, and renew our mind.


Many men and women of faith have demonstrated by their obedience to God, that they are not totally depraved.

No doubt, man needs a Saviour, however, many has always had the ability to choose to obey and do good, or disobey and do evil.


Adam and Eve, who were without sin, and created by God Himself, in the image of God, chose to disobey Him.


We’re Adam and Eve, totally depraved?


How about Cain?

Cain has the ability to choose to do good.


If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it.” Genesis 4:7

• And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it.

How can a totally depraved man, have the ability to rule over sin?




JLB

 

[JLB]

So at this point, I bow out of a conversation where no one is listening, but just waiting to talk.

I’m listening and responding to you, as you are doing most of the talking. We are discussing.


So far I haven’t really seen why you call yourself a Calvinist, other than you are a follower of his teachings.


That’s your choice, however.




JLB

 

[atpollard]

So far I haven’t really seen why you call yourself a Calvinist, other than you are a follower of his teachings.

What are the teachings of John Calvin (Since you are certain that I am following them) and where in his writings do they appear?

I am anxious to learn since I have NEVER read any of the writings of Calvin (or felt any desire to).

I have read scripture and came to believe that all of man was corrupted by the fall (our flesh has a natural attraction for sin; our mind is inclined towards sinful thoughts and our soul lacks peace and unity with God) which aligns with what modern Reformed Theologians call “Total Depravity” or “Total Inability” because this corruption of our body, mind and spirit render us incapable of doing what God commands (Love God and our neighbor per the greatest commandments) in our own power and without supernatural help from God.

I have read scripture and come to believe that God does not select people for salvation because those saved are somehow better than everyone else or that there is some innate merit in those saved that made them deserving of salvation while the people that go to hell are less deserving of salvation. I found out that modern Reformed Theologians have a term for this called “Unmerited Favor” or “Unconditional Election”.

I could continue, but you are unlikely to believe me this time any more than any of the previous times that I have told you that I follow scripture rather than the teachings of the man John Calvin.

You state that you would like to talk about scripture, but you continue to post false assertions about what I believe and what Calvinism believes, so we never get past this one point. It is also a mark of hubris to claim that YOUR beliefs are scripture and those of everyone that disagrees is following the teachings of men. Another person who made the same claim that you make Joseph Smith (author of the Newest Testament ... the Book of Mormon). He had no use for past or present theologians either since he knew exactly what the Bible really meant.

 

[atpollard]

Getting back to the discussion of free will and my REFORMED THEOLOGICAL (based on scripture rather than human writings) position that there is no Libertarian Free Will (as defined below) for any man.

LIBERTARIAN FREE WILL: “our choices are free from the determination or constraints of human nature and free from any predetermination by God.”

In response to a request to get back to scripture, let us examine a clear Biblical example of “free will“ in action.

[Jonah 1:1-3 NIV]
1 The word of the LORD came to Jonah son of Amittai: 2 "Go to the great city of Nineveh and preach against it, because its wickedness has come up before me." 3 But Jonah ran away from the LORD and headed for Tarshish. He went down to Joppa, where he found a ship bound for that port. After paying the fare, he went aboard and sailed for Tarshish to flee from the LORD.

Here we have a clear example of God’s declared will: God ordered Jonah to go to Nineveh and preach. God chose a specific person to perform the task. God gave clear and explicit commands to that person. As commands, God had every right to expect those commands to be obeyed.

Of course Jonah exercised his Libertarian Free Will to choose to obey or disobey the LORD without any determination or constraints of his human nature. The fact that the people of Nineveh were desperately hated by Jonah had no influence on the ability of Jonah to weigh the relative merits of obeying the GREAT I AM or to refuse a direct command from his Creator. GOD so desired all choices of man to be based completely on their (our) untampered with free will that God made no predetermination of the outcome and was prepared to accept Jonah’s free will decision as the last word on the subject. [It is well known by any reasonable person that God would never make someone do something that they did not want to do ... that would turn people into mindless robots and God into a monster.]

So Jonah weighed the decision impartially, made his free will choice to refuse God’s command and God, being 100% pure love) would simply accept Jonah’s rejection.

Why then did Jonah feel the need to flee in the opposite direction of Nineveh, board a ship, and head towards what was probably the furthest port from Nineveh that Jonah had ever heard of? God would never interfere with free will, would he?

 

[JLB]

What are the teachings of John Calvin

It’s called Calvinism.



JLB

 

[JLB]

I am anxious to learn since I have NEVER read any of the writings of Calvin (or felt any desire to).

Then why do you refer to yourself as a Calvinist?


JLB

 

[JLB]

Getting back to the discussion of free will and my REFORMED THEOLOGICAL (based on scripture rather than human writings)

Amen! ?

LIBERTARIAN FREE WILL: “our choices are free from the determination or constraints of human nature and free from any predetermination by God.”

Could you post the scripture you are referring to, that specifically uses the term Libertarian Free Will?



JLB

 

[JLB]

So Jonah weighed the decision impartially, made his free will choice to refuse God’s command and God, being 100% pure love) would simply accept Jonah’s rejection.

Amen.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Why then did Jonah feel the need to flee in the opposite direction of Nineveh, board a ship, and head towards what was probably the furthest port from Nineveh that Jonah had ever heard of? God would never interfere with free will, would he?

I agree with everything up to your statement ...

God would never interfere with free will, would he?

I disagree agree, God can and does intervene in people’s lives, because their will is in opposition to His.

Thank goodness.


This only proves that people have a will of their own, and can and do make choices apart from God’s will.

So what’s your point?



JLB

 

[atpollard]

It’s called Calvinism.

JLB

Untrue. John Calvin did not believe in Limited Atonement. :tongue

 

[atpollard]

Then why do you refer to yourself as a Calvinist?
JLB

Already asked and answered.
For the same reason that other people that believe the Bible and accept the Reformed Theology presented in places like the book of Romans and Ephesians are called “Calvinists”.

 

[atpollard]

Could you post the scripture you are referring to, that specifically uses the term Libertarian Free Will?

JLB

Right next to the scripture that uses the term Bible and Trinity and the phrase “choose to believe”.

As stated previously, different people mean different things when they say “free will” so I chose to define what I meant. I do not understand why you have such a problem with people defining what they mean when they use controversial terms.