Free will or no free will?

[Heidi]

Our will is to do the will of the Father but as Paul said we don't always do what we ought to do. The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. The Holy Spirit leads us to understand the Scriptures and gives us what to say but as I said the flesh is weak. As for election, that term is reserved for the ones who have obtained a faith of equal standing with the Apostles. The elect are the ones who seek knowledge and wisdom and understanding and God gives them the higher gifts of prophecy and spiritual understanding. So if you think you are chosen it's because you are. I wouldn't waste my time arguing with the goats and the sheep. How many Apostles and prophets do we have in the church today? How many churches have a prophet? It's interesting what Jesus said, 'there will be two men working in the field and two women working in the field and one is taken and one is left behind' The elect are few in number. In fact there may be only four left in the end if I'm not mistaken. The vast majority of Christians belong to the sheepfold and among the sheep we have the goats. If they don't recognize you Heidi and they cast you out, just remember they did the same thing to Christ.

Sorry, friend, but the only one who has power over the devil is God. If we could resist the devil, then we wouldn't need Christ's redemption, or the Holy Spirit. We could just decide not to sin. :

That means we could decide to be as perfect as God is. And that is a huge lie of Satan. So here's how Satan deceives us:

1) He deceives us into thinking that we came from monkeys (evolutionists really and truly believe this)
2) He deceives us into thinking that we have comtrol over our sins like he deceives an addict into thining that he has control over his addiction
3) He deceives us into believing that we can be perfect but simply choose not to :
4) He deceives Eve into thinking she would be as wise as God if she ate the fruit
5) He deceieves unbeievers into thinking that Jesus is not Lord
6) He deceives us into believing that the earth is 4.5 billion years old
7) He deceives us into believing secular scientists who disagree with God
8) He deceives unbelievers into believing they don't sin
9) He deceives the Muslims to believe that allah is God

Satan is the ruler of the air. And none of us, not you, not Eve, not anyone can break through the lies of Satan. Only God can. God knows how impossible it is to copnvince an evolutionist that monkeys didn't breed humans. That should be as easy to see as the earth is round. But they can't see it because satan is blinding their eyes to the truth as 2 Corinthians 4:4 says.

We have no prophets today because God removed them as he said he would.

Faith is a gift from God so that no one can boast. But there is a tremendous amount of boasting going on here about one's own ability to believe through his own free will. But it is a lie. One can no more muster up his own faith than he can choose not to believe that the world is round. One can only see what he is capable of seeing and understanding and nothing more. There is no scripture to back up free will. Because of human pride, most people simply don't want to believe that God controls the universe. They'd like to believe that they have the control. That's called fear and fear is from the devil. :wink:

 

[MarkT]

Sorry, friend, but the only one who has power over the devil is God. If we could resist the devil, then we wouldn't need Christ's redemption, or the Holy Spirit. We could just decide not to sin.

You can decide not to sin. It's the outside you can't control. Resist the devil and he will flee for you. That's according to James 4:7 It doesn't say the devil will flee from God. You exist. On the inside there's peace that comes by the Holy Spirit in the knowledge of God. On the outside we have less control but we can control our members. Perhaps our 'will' like 'love' comes from God. When we listen to God, he increases our 'will' to 'do' so that when we set our minds on God, our determination increases. Where does our determination come from? From belief. Outside, in terms of events and circumstances, we have no control. God controls events. We trust in him that all things are as they are supposed to be. All things are as they should be, as God wills things to be. The teaching is true. 'Not one sparrow will fall to the ground without your Father's will. But even the hairs of your head are all numbered.' Matthew 10:29 Yep. Outside everything is wasting away.

That means we could decide to be as perfect as God is. And that is a huge lie of Satan. So here's how Satan deceives us:

No it doesn't mean we can be perfect. A servant is not above his master. But notice, ... it is enough for the servant to be like his master. We do grow in stature into the likeness of Christ. But isn't this conversation about coming to believe in Christ? That, I think, is another matter. That's about being drawn by the Father and yes, men are drawn. Angels are sent out to compel men into the church. The angel could be your angel or someone you know, perhaps one of your parents or a complete stranger and you are drawn to investigate this thing sort of like Moses was drawn to investigate the burning bush. Now the Holy Spirit falls on them who believe the gospel that is preached and faith comes by hearing. You don't pour new wine into an old wineskin. First your nature has to change before you can receive the Spirit.

1) He deceives us into thinking that we came from monkeys (evolutionists really and truly believe this)
2) He deceives us into thinking that we have comtrol over our sins like he deceives an addict into thining that he has control over his addiction
3) He deceives us into believing that we can be perfect but simply choose not to
4) He deceives Eve into thinking she would be as wise as God if she ate the fruit
5) He deceives unbeievers into thinking that Jesus is not Lord
6) He deceives us into believing that the earth is 4.5 billion years old
7) He deceives us into believing secular scientists who disagree with God
8) He deceives unbelievers into believing they don't sin
9) He deceives the Muslims to believe that allah is God

Satan is the ruler of the air. And none of us, not you, not Eve, not anyone can break through the lies of Satan. Only God can. God knows how impossible it is to copnvince an evolutionist that monkeys didn't breed humans. That should be as easy to see as the earth is round. But they can't see it because satan is blinding their eyes to the truth as 2 Corinthians 4:4 says.

We have no prophets today because God removed them as he said he would.

Faith is a gift from God so that no one can boast. But there is a tremendous amount of boasting going on here about one's own ability to believe through his own free will. But it is a lie. One can no more muster up his own faith than he can choose not to believe that the world is round. One can only see what he is capable of seeing and understanding and nothing more. There is no scripture to back up free will. Because of human pride, most people simply don't want to believe that God controls the universe. They'd like to believe that they have the control. That's called fear and fear is from the devil.

Paul tells us to desire the higher gifts. No they are not removed. I agree faith is a gift and of course I agree we do not decide what we believe. You're on the right track Heidi.

 

[Heidi]

Paul tells us to desire the higher gifts. No they are not removed. I agree faith is a gift and of course I agree we do not decide what we believe. You're on the right track Heidi.

Well, I, like paul, have no desire to sin. I' like to be as perfect as God is and be without sin. So why am I not as sinless as Jesus? Because I have a sinful nature as Paul explains perfectly in Romans 7:13-25. He couldn't be any clearer that we don't choose to sin. We are in bondage to sin and only Jesus can free us from it with his forgiveness. If we could free ourselves from sin, then we wouldn't need Christ's death on the cross. it was a watste of time.

So you are in error. We are in bondage to sin and only Jesus can take our sins away by his death on the cross. I'm just amazed at how so many Christians have no clue why Jesus died on the cross for us. Absolutely none. Then they chastize me for understanding it. :o I just don't get it. :roll:

So until Christians understand the basics of Christianirty which is; we are in bondage to sin and cannot free ourselves. Only Christ's death on the cross can take away our sins. Until they learn that, they will never understand:

1) What grace means
2) That we are made righteous not by our own perfect nature but by Christ's blood. Period.
3) The whole book of Galations, Romans, and Ephesians

Only after understanding that is anyone ready for any kind of advanced theology.

 

[Free]

Mondar,

Before I reply, I would like to know one more thing: why is it man is free to make the choice to follow God in the OT but not in the NT?

 

[Heidi]

Mondar,

Before I reply, I would like to know one more thing: why is it man is free to make the choice to follow God in the OT but not in the NT?

He is not free to make the choice to follow God under any circumstances. "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him". And that is not a lie.

So read my above post to see the basics of Christianity. One first has to know why Jesus died before he can understand deeper Christian principles.

 

[mondar]

Mondar,

Before I reply, I would like to know one more thing: why is it man is free to make the choice to follow God in the OT but not in the NT?

Free,
Did I say man is does not need the ministries of the Holy Spirit in the OT for regeneration? I think the OT is a more difficult subject since many of the future promises concern regeneration. The heart is to be changed. Does this mean that the HS did not regenerate anyone in the OT? Did he change anyones heart (even thought the promises are future?). He said of David "he is a man after my own heart." David also said "take not your Holy Spirit from me."

I will still propose that the David was incapable of beleiving unless the ministries of the Holy Spirit brought him to faith. The difference might be that there was no promise for David or the OT saints. This does not mean the ministries were lacking in their salvation.

God is not limited by his promises, he can always give grace to all whom he decides to give grace.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Free, I hope I have answer the question. If I missed the mark of what you are asking, I am not trying to dodge the question, but I am not sure I understood the question. If I failed to address what your concern is, you might want to restate the question.

 

[GMS]

Ezekiel 36:22-32, which was mentioned earlier should be a good example that even in the Old Testament, that God's people only became His through Divine intervention.
GMS

22"Therefore say to the house of Israel, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "It is (AF)not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for My holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you went.
23"I will (AG)vindicate the holiness of My great name which has been profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst Then the (AH)nations will know that I am the LORD," declares the Lord GOD, "when I prove Myself holy among you in their sight.

24"For I will (AI)take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands and bring you into your own land.

25"Then I will (AJ)sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your (AK)filthiness and from all your (AL)idols.

26"Moreover, I will give you a (AM)new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the (AN)heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.

27"I will (AO)put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.

28"You will live in the land that I gave to your forefathers; so you will be (AP)My people, and I will be your God.

29"Moreover, I will save you from all your uncleanness; and I will call for the grain and multiply it, and I (AQ)will not bring a famine on you.

30"I will (AR)multiply the fruit of the tree and the produce of the field, so that you will not receive again the disgrace of famine among the nations.

31"Then you will (AS)remember your evil ways and your deeds that were not good, and you will loathe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and your abominations.

32"I am not doing this (AT)for your sake," declares the Lord GOD, "let it be known to you. Be ashamed and confounded for your ways, O house of Israel!"

 

[MarkT]

Well, I, like paul, have no desire to sin. I' like to be as perfect as God is and be without sin. So why am I not as sinless as Jesus? Because I have a sinful nature as Paul explains perfectly in Romans 7:13-25. He couldn't be any clearer that we don't choose to sin. We are in bondage to sin and only Jesus can free us from it with his forgiveness. If we could free ourselves from sin, then we wouldn't need Christ's death on the cross. it was a watste of time.

You had a sinful nature. All of this presumes you have put off your old nature and have put on the new nature which is renewed in knowledge, as Paul says in his letter to the Colossians, after the image of God. Paul isn't talking about your sinful nature. He is speaking in the Spirit to those who possess the Spirit. If anything he is talking about the sinful nature of the flesh. He says, 'nothing good dwells within me, that is, in my flesh.'

I agree we don't choose to sin but that doesn't mean we don't. We can become preoccupied with the cares of this world and Satan can keep us busy for a while. But God won't let his chosen fall. He won't let the elect be tempted beyond our endurance.

I mean, we are sinners. There's a reason why Jesus gave us the LORD's prayer. We are sinners while we are in this body. We need to be forgiven. Our life, however, is in the Spirit, in Christ. It's not here on earth. On earth, we're in a body of death, as Paul put it.

So you are in error. We are in bondage to sin and only Jesus can take our sins away by his death on the cross. I'm just amazed at how so many Christians have no clue why Jesus died on the cross for us. Absolutely none. Then they chastize me for understanding it. I just don't get it.

No Actually we're not in bondage to sin anymore because we have died to sin with Christ. Sin has no power over us. Christ freed us from the power of sin, that is, death, by his sacrifice. Christ condemned sin in the flesh so that the just requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us so that we who set our minds on the Spirit can have life and peace.

So until Christians understand the basics of Christianirty which is; we are in bondage to sin and cannot free ourselves. Only Christ's death on the cross can take away our sins. Until they learn that, they will never understand:

No. You might say that to someone who isn't a Christian. But it doesn't apply to us. We were in bondage to sin. We're not in bondage anymore. But I agree that we didn't free ourselves. It was the power of God that freed us; the living and active Word of God.

 

[Free]

mondar,

This is what I had in mind when I asked my previous question:

Man is created in the image of God which includes the ability to choose to do right or wrong, to follow God or rebel. This is seen right in the beginning of Scripture when Adam and Eve, not knowing evil only good, still choose to rebel against God.

In Joshua we have:

Jos 24:15 And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the LORD, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."

Throughout the entirety of Scripture man is called to make the decision to turn to God. If man has no free choice in the matter, then all these calls to decide whom we will serve are meaningless.

I maintain that since man was created to choose between following God and not following God, that that is intrinsic to our nature. God has given us the ability to choose and expects us to do so when confronted with the truth of the Christ's death and resurrection. God desires all to be saved and woos us but the choice is ours.

Regarding the previous discussion:

Speaking of assertions, can you provide Scripture for this?

Tit 3:5 not by works done in righteousness, which we did ourselves, but according to his mercy he saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,

You missed my point on this. It is the order of operation that I take issue with. You stated: "when God changes our nature, we come running to him. We choose him not because we are dragged, but because he changes our natures to desire him." This is the reverse order which is why I asked for Scriptural proof and which your "proof" does not address. You stated that we are regenerated prior to salvation, but that is not correct.

Men can make shipwreck of their faith. The Galatians went after another gospel, but men who once had the faith, do not loose it.

This is a contradiction. How can men "make shipwreck of their faith" but not loose it?

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,

2Pe 2:20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
2Pe 2:21 For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them.

These speak of a decision made to turn from the faith. But if we have no free decision to even be a part of the faith, how is it that we have free decision to depart from it? That is inconsistent.

Is it totally by Gods grace, or partially by his grace and partially by our free will. Salvation is totally by Gods grace, and in no way is it our ourselves. It is 100% the gift of God that is completely unearned. To say we have free will, means we earn salvation by our faith.

To say that it is up to us to choose whether or not we will follow Christ in no way means that we earn our salvation. I agree that salvation "is 100% the gift of God", but gifts can be rejected. Gifts are not gifts if there is no choice whether or not one wants to accept it.

This leads to the bigger problem for your position: if we have no free choice in the matter, then neither do the unsaved have a choice. This makes God out to be unjust in that he will punish people out of no fault of their own. This is a great injustice and is inconsistent with the nature of God.

 

[Free]

He is not free to make the choice to follow God under any circumstances. "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him". And that is not a lie.

You're wrong. Read my post above.

 

[Heidi]

No. You might say that to someone who isn't a Christian. But it doesn't apply to us. We were in bondage to sin. We're not in bondage anymore. But I agree that we didn't free ourselves. It was the power of God that freed us; the living and active Word of God.

If you're saying that we are all as sinless as Jesus Christ then you couldn't be further from the truth. : Once again, we are made pure by Christ's blood, not our own choice not to sin. That's because he erases our sins once we confess them. 1 John 1;8, "If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. But if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.' Notice john says "we" and his stateent is in the present tense. So he's talking about everyone, including born again Christians.

That is an ongoing process until we die as Paul explains in Romans 7:13-25 in our struggle with sin.

So sorry, Mark, but we all still have some forms of; envy, greed, pride, lust, sloth, anger (as I see all over this form), and gluttony (as we see in every church.) Again, this is basic Christianity. But if we deny we sin, the the truth is not in us and we will continue our sinful nature.

So not only are we not sinless once we are saved, but we can't choose not to sin. Therefore, the only solution to the sin problem is confession and forgiveness, not an act of the will. This has to be understood so we no where to turn to when we sin.

 

[MarkT]

Did I say man is does not need the ministries of the Holy Spirit in the OT for regeneration? I think the OT is a more difficult subject since many of the future promises concern regeneration. The heart is to be changed. Does this mean that the HS did not regenerate anyone in the OT? Did he change anyones heart (even thought the promises are future?). He said of David "he is a man after my own heart." David also said "take not your Holy Spirit from me."

I will still propose that the David was incapable of beleiving unless the ministries of the Holy Spirit brought him to faith. The difference might be that there was no promise for David or the OT saints. This does not mean the ministries were lacking in their salvation.

Actually he was made king because he listened to God when God told him what to do. David heard the words of God and he was obedient. He believed because he was a servant of God raised by God to be king.

The Holy Spirit doesn't regenerate. I think you mean renewal. Regeneration refers to the washing of the inside of the cup by the blood of Christ and it refers to the nature of the inside. Renewal refers to the life of God which is the Holy Spirit which God pours out into the cup. I do think David had a righteous spirit in that he believed God would do what he said he would do. In that case, like Mary, he was a righteous vessel for the Holy Spirit and the words of God came to him.

 

[Heidi]

Actually he was made king because he listened to God when God told him what to do. David heard the words of God and he was obedient. He believed because he was a servant of God raised by God to be king.

The Holy Spirit doesn't regenerate. I think you mean renewal. Regeneration refers to the washing of the inside of the cup by the blood of Christ and it refers to the nature of the inside. Renewal refers to the life of God which is the Holy Spirit which God pours out into the cup. I do think David had a righteous spirit in that he believed God would do what he said he would do. In that case, like Mary, he was a righteous vessel for the Holy Spirit and the words of God came to him.

Well, he regenerated me into a new creation. Receiving the Holy Spirit is washing the cup from the inside. Once again, if we could do it by ourselves, then we wouldn't need Jesus or the holy Spirit for anything.

Sorry, "no one is righteous, not one." So since God was drawing David, then his heart for God came from God.

 

[GMS]

mondar,

This is what I had in mind when I asked my previous question:

Man is created in the image of God which includes the ability to choose to do right or wrong, to follow God or rebel. This is seen right in the beginning of Scripture when Adam and Eve, not knowing evil only good, still choose to rebel against God.

In Joshua we have:

Jos 24:15 And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the LORD, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."

Throughout the entirety of Scripture man is called to make the decision to turn to God. If man has no free choice in the matter, then all these calls to decide whom we will serve are meaningless.

I maintain that since man was created to choose between following God and not following God, that that is intrinsic to our nature. God has given us the ability to choose and expects us to do so when confronted with the truth of the Christ's death and resurrection. God desires all to be saved and woos us but the choice is ours.

Regarding the previous discussion:


To say that it is up to us to choose whether or not we will follow Christ in no way means that we earn our salvation. I agree that salvation "is 100% the gift of God", but gifts can be rejected. Gifts are not gifts if there is no choice whether or not one wants to accept it.

This leads to the bigger problem for your position: if we have no free choice in the matter, then neither do the unsaved have a choice. This makes God out to be unjust in that he will punish people out of no fault of their own. This is a great injustice and is inconsistent with the nature of God.

Scriptures which tell us to do something, believe, obey, etc are like signs warning us, but Scripture is also clear that man will not respond to the warning signs, because he does not want to. If one is Spiritually blind and the sign clearly says beware of cliff, they will not see it (1Corinthians 2:14), and according to Romans 3:10ff that is who they are naturally.So, even though Adam and Eve had freewill after the Fall their offspring no longer do. According to Romans 12ff, Adam is our representation for mankind until we are born again in the 2nd Adam which is Jesus. In essence, if you have a problem with the Potter who chooses who are to be these vessels of mercy (not just Jews but Gentiles also, Romans 9:24) and who will not be from this pile of evil clay, you must take it up with Him.
GMS

 

[MarkT]

If you're saying that we are all as sinless as Jesus Christ then you couldn't be further from the truth. Once again, we are made pure by Christ's blood, not our own choice not to sin. That's because he erases our sins once we confess them. 1 John 1;8, "If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. But if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.' Notice john says "we" and his stateent is in the present tense. So he's talking about everyone, including born again Christians.

Obviously I'm not saying we are sinless since I just said we are sinners. We don't choose to sin but sometimes the pressures of life build up so that we end up doing what we don't want to do. I agree confession purifies the conscience. However we are not in bondage to sin. That means sin doesn't have the power of death over us. Like Paul said, 'There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ has set me free from the law of sin and death'. Romans 8:2

 

[Heidi]

Obviously I'm not saying we are sinless since I just said we are sinners. We don't choose to sin but sometimes the pressures of life build up so that we end up doing what we don't want to do. I agree confession purifies the conscience. However we are not in bondage to sin. That means sin doesn't have the power of death over us. Like Paul said, 'There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ has set me free from the law of sin and death'. Romans 8:2

Yup.

 

[Free]

Scriptures which tell us to do something, believe, obey, etc are like signs warning us, but Scripture is also clear that man will not respond to the warning signs, because he does not want to.

But they demand that we act, that we make a choice.

So, even though Adam and Eve had freewill after the Fall their offspring no longer do.

Based on which passage in Scripture?

In essence, if you have a problem with the Potter who chooses who are to be these vessels of mercy (not just Jews but Gentiles also, Romans 9:24) and who will not be from this pile of evil clay, you must take it up with Him.

Are you saying that God creates some people who are not to be vessels of mercy?

 

[Heidi]

Are you saying that God creates some people who are not to be vessels of mercy?

We do what we are led to do, Free. Our choices come from our least stressful option. So they aren't "free" choices. For example, a battered wife cannot leave her husband until her fear of her husband is stronger than her fear of leaving. So she's a prisoner of her own fears.

That's how people are stuck in sin or freed by the Holy Spirit. As the Holy Spirit frees us, our options increase. But that is not by our own choice. It's by how much or little fear we have.

So once again, we are in bondage to sin, wich only Jesus can take away.

 

[GMS]

Are you saying that God creates some people who are not to be vessels of mercy?

Free,
When sin came into the world man's ability to make a choice for that which is spiritual was lost (1 Corinthians 2:12, Romans 3:10-18). Thus Adam and Jesus alone did not have a sin nature, the rest of us do.
The Bible is a close book without the illumination from the Holy Spirit, thus the warnings are for the elect, the non elect will not heed to them. The Law, that are the warnings, bring's the regenerate soul to their knees, the natural man may obey the moral law to maintain civility in society, but it will not bring him to a spiritual awareness without the Holy Spirit.
Yes, God by leaving the unregenerate in their sins (passive) and not intervening in their lives (actively), does decide who is a vessel of mercy and who is a vessel of wrath.
GMS

 

[mondar]

But they demand that we act, that we make a choice.

Free, You continue to say over and over again that if we are called to make a choice that this proves that we have ability to choose God. I might tell a bug to make me a new car, and call it to be a worker in my car factory. I might even threaten to crush it if it refuses.

I agree all men are called to choose and therefore have the responsibility, but "no man can come to me." (John 6:44) The word "can" speaks of ability. There is direct scriptural statements that no man has the ability to come.

GMS wrote:
So, even though Adam and Eve had freewill after the Fall their offspring no longer do.

Free answered:
Based on which passage in Scripture?

John 6:44

Are you saying that God creates some people who are not to be vessels of mercy?

Rom 9:21 Or hath not the potter a right over the clay, from the same lump to make one part a vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?

Who made the vessels of wrath? Do you think the vessels of wrath are cosmic boo boos by some schizophrenic potter? Where do the vessels of wrath come from?

PS, Free, I missed one of your posts up above, I have not forgotten it, and I hope to take time to reply sometime.