Free will or no free will?

[Vic C.]

Heidi, you need to study the prophesies concerning the End of times for Israel.

http://www.amichai.com/war/commentary/

Ezekiel 36
Israel was once a desolate wasteland, but its Soil has been Restored and its people have returned...and its Soil will be further Redeemed and the children of Israel will multiply upon the Land and be very numerous upon her Soil; the Word of G-d, according to Ezekiel 36. The nations have tried to make Israel their own, in contempt of G-d, "because of Israel's expulsion in scorn," and thus they thought they would rid the earth of Israel and of the memory of G-d's Laws, but it will not be so. Israel has been Restored in its Land, the entire House of Israel Will Be Restored in its Land, and the Rule of G-d Will Be Restored upon Israel; thus Israel Will Be Blessed with wealth and abundance.

But this will not be for the foolishness of Israel, that they might think they had done good in the "Eyes" of G-d. To the contrary, Israel has been Blessed for the sake of the world, that G-d's Name will no longer be disdained and His Laws will no longer be ignored. As it Is Said, "It is not for your sake that I Act, O House of Israel, but for My Holy Name that you have desecrated among the nations where you came...let this be known to you! Be embarrassed and ashamed of your ways, O House of Israel!" For "I Will Put My Spirit within you, and I Will Make it so that you will follow My Decrees and guard My Ordinances, and fulfill them. You will dwell in the Land that I Gave to your forefathers; you will be a people to Me, and I Will be a Judge Over you." That Israel should merit Redemption and deserve the many Blessings that will be earned.

 

[Heidi]

Heidi, you need to study the prophesies concerning the End of times for Israel.

http://www.amichai.com/war/commentary/

And you need to see when that will happen: Romans 11:25, "For Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in." So the verses you quoted concern end times. Ezekiel, however, is talking about those in whom he will put his Spirit; All those who are born again.

And I'm getting pretty tired of some posters here putting down the transforming power of the Holy Spirit. It's simply a fact that the Holy Spirit inside of us is stronger than the devil which Ezekiel and 1 John 4:4 verifies. Arguing with that is ludicrous. :roll:

 

[Vic C.]

You really don't know who Ezekiel is talking about, do you? You have no clue about God's plan for Israel. Until you understand that Romans chapters 9, 10 and 11 deals with the nation of Israel and God's plan and purpose for them, you will continue to apply prophesies meant for them and apply them to the NT ekklesia.

Heidi, do you believe the "church" replaces Israel?

And I'm getting pretty tired of some psoters here putting down the transforming power of the holy Spirit. It's simply a fact that the Holy Spirit inside of us is stronger than the devil which Ezekiel verifies. Arguing with that is ludicrous.

Heidi, no one here is downplaying the importance and power of the HS. If you're tired, get some sleep. ;-)

 

[Heidi]

You really don't know who Ezekiel is talking about, do you? You have no clue about God's plan for Israel. Until you understand that Romans chapters 9, 10 and 11 deals with the nation of Israel and God's plan and purpose for them, you will continue to apply prophesies meant for them and apply them to the NT ekklesia.

Heidi, do you believe the "church" replaces Israel?


Heidi, no one here is downplaying the importance and power of the HS. If you're tired, get some sleep. ;-)

That is an absolute falsehood. God's plan for the remnant is clear as a bell. Israel is not just a country. It is the children of the promise which includes all the sons of God. So you need to understand that those born again of the Holy Spirit are Israel.. And when you do, you will see exactly who Ezekiel is talking about. And until you do, you won' have a clue in whom God puts his Spirit.

And claiming that we can resist God's will, which Romans 9:19 clearly implies that no one can, then claiming that anyone can decide not to choose God once he receives the holy Spirit is indeed claiming that Satan nd the human will are stronger than the indwelling Holy Spirit. That's what i'm tired of.

 

[Atonement]

 

[Heidi]

Nighty-night. I guess we'll go at it in the morning...maybe. :

 

[Atonement]

Pardon my sarcasm .. It's Friday night and I'm bored

 

[Vic C.]

That is an absolute falsehood. God's plan for the remnant is clear as a bell. Israel is not just a country. It is the children of the promise which includes all the sons of God. So you need to understand that those born again of the Holy Spirit are Israel.. And when you do, you will see exactly who Ezekiel is talking about. And until you do, you won' have a clue in whom God puts his Spirit.

What's a falsehood Heidi... and who metioned anything about a country?

So I guess this answers my question... you do believe in replacement doctrine, don't you? Lets sidetrack for a moment; explain to us briefly your position on End Times so we have a better understanding of where you are coming from. I don't see you much in the End Times Forum.

 

[Atonement]

Nighty-night. I guess we'll go at it in the morning...maybe. :

Go at it?

Heidi are you on a power trip? Learn to be humble! The most mature Christians are those that can be humble while accepting the fact they are wrong at times. If someone disagrees with you Heidi, you "pin" that person not to believe the Word of God.. That shows us your Spiritual maturity!! In many more ways then one..

 

[Vic C.]

Oh, you are in trouble now, mister. 8-)

 

[Atonement]

Oh, you are in trouble now, mister. 8-)

Probably, but the truth must be told. I see a lot of pride in her post. Someone needs to knock her off her pedestal (oops) did I say that out loud... Heidi I love you as my sister in the Lord, but you need to take a step back and see what many here tell you. Vic and I both have great knowledge on the End Times, and if you for just a moment took a step back and use this forum for not only posting your opinions, but also use this as a place to learn and grow in Christ!! After all we are on the same side, we are all covered by the same blood, are we not? Then let's use one another for edification and not only to use the elementary childish stuff "I'm right and your wrong" because that only gets one so far before you burn your own bridges. A valuable lesson I had to learn in life. Take my words as encouragement and corrective criticism. Or take my words and throw them under the rug and step on them. Either way my point has been made

 

[jgredline]

You really don't know who Ezekiel is talking about, do you? You have no clue about God's plan for Israel. Until you understand that Romans chapters 9, 10 and 11 deals with the nation of Israel and God's plan and purpose for them, you will continue to apply prophesies meant for them and apply them to the NT ekklesia.

Heidi, do you believe the "church" replaces Israel?


Heidi, no one here is downplaying the importance and power of the HS. If you're tired, get some sleep. ;-)

She is not going to listen...This has been told to her by atleast 3 other posters.. sigh

 

[jgredline]

jgredline,
I believe in the evangelism of all men.

I believe that it is proper to accept the fellowship those who disagree with me on the sovereignty of God. I think good men can differ in opinion on these issues still be good men.

I believe it is an error to use TULIP as a test of faith, a test of spirituality, or a test of doctrinal orthodoxy. I completely recognize that I will be in heaven with those who denied TULIP on earth.

I believe the value of Christ death is greater then an infinite number of universes full of an infinite number of unbelievers (I guess I believe in infinity too... :D ) If an infinite number of people came to the gospel in faith, it would no more lower the grace of God then a thimble full of water would lower the level of the ocean. The value of Christ death is simply inexhaustible, infinite, and inestimable.

I must admit that I have never read John Calvin, but my wife says I get hyper when I drink cawfee! Does that make me a hyper-Calvinist? :D

Fair enough..

 

[mondar]

I didn't get the number of posts I have from merely making assertions.

Maybe you make lots of undefended assertions

At this point I am not interested in debating my position as much as I am in trying to see how you get what you do out of the passage you have given, because it just isn't there.

You show no evidence of this, you have not even bothered to address what I said about John 6. (other then to say it is wrong)

No, I meant the whole passage. But let me restate what I meant in a different way: that passage is neither for nor against the free will of man.

The words " no free will" are not in the passage. Implications for a denial of free will are in the passage because the passage is about the refusal of the Jews to come to faith. Jesus is saying that the Jews cannot come to faith without the work of God. The context of the passage begins with a statement of Jewish unbelief.
John 6:35 Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall not hunger, and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
John 6:36 But I said unto you, that ye have seen me, and yet believe not.

In a few verses this unbelief will be emphasized...
Joh 6:41 The Jews therefore murmured concerning him, because he said, I am the bread which came down out of heaven.
Joh 6:42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how doth he now say, I am come down out of heaven?
Joh 6:43 Jesus answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except ...

The passage is then an explanation of why some believe and some do not. The passage is saying some believe because God "gave them" to the son (37), because the son will not loose even one (39), and because the Fathers draws them (44). This is why people have faith.

Of course the words "free will" are not in the passage. The obvious reason is because "free will" had not part in Jesus theology of why men come to faith.

Speaking of assertions, can you provide Scripture for this?

Tit 3:5 not by works done in righteousness, which we did ourselves, but according to his mercy he saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,

It should amaze you in light of other Scriptures that state some will turn away from the faith.

Men can make shipwreck of their faith. The Galatians went after another gospel, but men who once had the faith, do not loose it. God would first chasten them to death (1 Cor 11:30) so that they will enter heaven with him (1 Cor 11:32).

Interesting. At least you are being consistent. So many believe that we have free will before salvation and then think we have eternal security. This would be to say that we have free will before salvation but somehow loose our free will at salvation and can no longer choose but become puppets after salvation. Your libertarian position is at least consistent when you believe we can loose our salvation due to our free will, but free will is not a biblical teaching.

There are serious theological implications if man has no free will to choose whether or not he will follow Christ.

Yes, great issues are at stake. The real question behind this discussion concerns salvation. Is it totally by Gods grace, or partially by his grace and partially by our free will. Salvation is totally by Gods grace, and in no way is it our ourselves. It is 100% the gift of God that is completely unearned. To say we have free will, means we earn salvation by our faith.

 

[Heidi]

Yes, great issues are at stake. The real question behind this discussion concerns salvation. Is it totally by Gods grace, or partially by his grace and partially by our free will. Salvation is totally by Gods grace, and in no way is it our ourselves. It is 100% the gift of God that is completely unearned. To say we have free will, means we earn salvation by our faith.

Your posts are so biblical that one has to be blind not to see that.

 

[mondar]

Heidi, may I ask without you getting offended, if you would take the time to read from Ezekiel 36:22-38 and count how many time the word Israel is mentioned? This should give you hint as to whom the passage is speaking to.

This is exactly what I meant by rightly diving the word of God and to not take verses out of their context, because that particular verse is not talking to us.

The whole chapter is speaking to Israel, actually Judah, about prophecies concerning their repemption.

Vic C.,
You are asking a good question. I think I will make a few comments on this subject. You are getting into the subject of the New Covenant. This is a huge topic, and I am afraid of leaving way to many unanswered questions. It is also a very heavy topic that might deserve another thread.

The New Covenant promises to take away our heart of stone and give us a heart of flesh. It promises to give us a new heart, a circumcised heart, a clean heart. You are correct in that the context of Ezekiel 36:26 does make this promise to Israel. In fact nearly every OT passage the context is Israel. The New Covenant texts are also found in Ezek 11:19; Jeremiah 31:31-34; and many other places in the OT. When the New Covenant is fulfilled, that is when Israel becomes the Millenial people of God.

However, Heidi is also right in that the New Covenant has been applied to gentiles in the Church. 2 Cor 3:3-6 applies the New Covenant to the Church. Hebrews 8 - 10 has an extended passage on the application of the New Covenant in the Church. In the Church, we all celebrate the New Covenant. Often a preacher holds up a cup and says "This is the New Covenant in my blood, do this in remembrance of me."

This raises a perplexing question. If God promised the New Covenant to Israel, why is he giving it to the Church? Also, is this a fulfillment. This question can be answered by remembering that God is not limited by his promises. God can always do more then he promised, but he can never do less. Just because God promised these blessings to Israel (and will fulfill his promise to Israel in the kingdom); this does not mean that he is limited to give this promise only to Israel. Let me illustrate.

ILLUSTRATION - If I am a multi-trillionaire, and promise to give you $100 on Christmas, and then I give Heidi $100 dollars on December 15th, have I broken my word to you? No! I can still give Heidi my promised gift on Christmas and keep my word.

The promise of regeneration and the promises of the HS works the same way in the bible. God promised these things to Israel, but he is not limited by that promise. His grace can still super-abound and he can go beyond his promises. He can give these things to all whom he pleases, even we Gentiles in the Church.

I recognize not everyone is a dispensationalist like me. Some reject the Church Israel distinction that I make, but that is a huge issue that would take even another thread.

Nevertheless, I think Heidi is correct in applying those blessings to the Church, and you were correct in saying that the immediate context of Exek 36 relates to Israel.

 

[Vic C.]

Vic C.,
You are asking a good question. I think I will make a few comments on this subject. You are getting into the subject of the New Covenant. This is a huge topic, and I am afraid of leaving way to many unanswered questions. It is also a very heavy topic that might deserve another thread.

I agree. Covenant Theology is something I need to be more well versed in...and it does deserve a Thread of it's own. Because of my limited experience with Covenant Theology, at this time, I would not be the right one to start such a topic. It is something I would follow intently though.

I recognize not everyone is a dispensationalist like me. Some reject the Church Israel distinction that I make, but that is a huge issue that would take even another thread.

I wasn't aware you were a Dispy. I guess I will have to read your posts with that in mind from now on. I'm not heavy into dispensation, but I do agree that some dispensation is necessary and Biblically supported.

 

[Heidi]

Yes, great issues are at stake. The real question behind this discussion concerns salvation. Is it totally by Gods grace, or partially by his grace and partially by our free will. Salvation is totally by Gods grace, and in no way is it our ourselves. It is 100% the gift of God that is completely unearned. To say we have free will, means we earn salvation by our faith.

I agree with you to a point. So what does Satan have to do with this? Anything? :o There's a reason that Paul tells us that people who don't "choose" or accept God are blinded by Satan. So sorry, but that doesn't leave any room for human free will. So there is no partial free will. ;-)

There are 2 powers operating the world; God and Satan. And the human will is ruled by one or the other. No human will is more powerful than either one. If it was, then we wouldn't need the Holy Spirit for a thing. Paul simply could have chosen to remove the thorn in his flesh instead of asking God to remove it. He also could have chosen to do the good he wanted to do, not the evil that he didn't want to do. But he knows the truth that none of us can do that, which is precisely why we need Christ. Adam and Eve were deceived by Satan and because of that, the rest of us are too unless we become born again of the Holy Spirit. After that, it's a battle between Satan and God inside of us and outisde of us. So the battle belongs to the Lord until Satan and his servants and minions are defeated and God wins. So the human will is anything but free. We are either servants of God or servants of Satan, not by choice, but by God's election. That's reality, folks, and no amount of disagreeing with that or arguing about it will change it one bit. Sorry. :wink:

 

[Heidi]

She is not going to listen...This has been told to her by atleast 3 other posters.. sigh

Jgredline, there are many truths in each verse of the bible. So let's take Ezekiel 36:27. The first truth is:

1) The fate of Israel (which includes the elect from the Gentiles and the remnant from Judah)
2) The power of the Holy Spirit inside the elect
3) How God will redeem Israel
4) That God will move his elect through the Spirit to follow his decrees and obey his laws
5) That God is actively involved in determining people's fate

That's just for starters. So it is untrue that I don't listen. It's others who don't listen to me because it seems to be very popular here to gossip about guests to other members. And if people are allowed to talk about guests to others here, then I'm going to start doing the very same thing. It won't be hard to find someone to pick on. :roll:

 

[MarkT]

I agree with you to a point. So what does Satan have to do with this? Anything? There's a reason that Paul tells us that people who don't "choose" or accept God are blinded by Satan. So sorry, but that doesn't leave any room for human free will. So there is no partial free will.

There are 2 powers operating the world; God and Satan. And the human will is ruled by one or the other. No human will is more powerful than either one. If it was, then we wouldn't need the Holy Spirit for a thing.

Heidi

We can resist the devil Heidi. It's not like we have no will. We do practice self control, like Peter said, "Make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue and virtue with knowledge and knowledge with self control and self control with steadfastness and steadfastness with godliness and godliness with brotherly affection and brotherly affection with love." I agree we can't be a house divided when it comes to serving God. It's not possible. But God gives us the strength and we do exercise our will to say no. The freedom to not choose God would be like the default position not having God at all. To say no would involve losing your faith and everything you know. The Holy Spirit leads us to understanding and gives us the words to say.

Paul simply could have chosen to remove the thorn in his flesh instead of asking God to remove it. He also could have chosen to do the good he wanted to do, not the evil that he didn't want to do. But he knows the truth that none of us can do that, which is precisely why we need Christ. Adam and Eve were deceived by Satan and because of that, the rest of us are too unless we become born again of the Holy Spirit. After that, it's a battle between Satan and God inside of us and outisde of us. So the battle belongs to the Lord until Satan and his servants and minions are defeated and God wins. So the human will is anything but free. We are either servants of God or servants of Satan, not by choice, but by God's election. That's reality, folks, and no amount of disagreeing with that or arguing about it will change it one bit. Sorry.

Our will is to do the will of the Father but as Paul said we don't always do what we ought to do. The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. The Holy Spirit leads us to understand the Scriptures and gives us what to say but as I said the flesh is weak. As for election, that term is reserved for the ones who have obtained a faith of equal standing with the Apostles. The elect are the ones who seek knowledge and wisdom and understanding and God gives them the higher gifts of prophecy and spiritual understanding. So if you think you are chosen it's because you are. I wouldn't waste my time arguing with the goats and the sheep. How many Apostles and prophets do we have in the church today? How many churches have a prophet? It's interesting what Jesus said, 'there will be two men working in the field and two women working in the field and one is taken and one is left behind' The elect are few in number. In fact there may be only four left in the end if I'm not mistaken. The vast majority of Christians belong to the sheepfold and among the sheep we have the goats. If they don't recognize you Heidi and they cast you out, just remember they did the same thing to Christ.