Free will or no free will?

[Heidi]

I have a question...

If God did not want man to have a free will, then why did God allow sin in the form of a serpent temp man in the first place? Does God want puppets on a string? Or does God want people that choose to serve Him on their own accord? We are into the 20 something page on this, and it seems fairly easy to answer?

This question has been ask by Chuck Smith, Raul Riese, Greg Laurel, Billy Graham and many other great men of God when talking about man and his free will, and they all ask the same question. It's obvious God wants us to have a free will or God would not have allow the serpent to temp us in the first place. We'll all just be puppets serving Him because we were created just for that...

The serpent deceived Eve. Romans 11:32 tells us why God allows Satan to deceive people; "For God bound all men over to disobedience so he can have mercy on them all."

Notice, those aren't my words or my beliefs, but the word of God. So I expect that others won't tell me that is my belief and put me down for it.

The first step toward coming to Christ is to admit our powerless over our sins which only Jesus can conquer through his death. In fact, tht is also the first principle in A.A., to admit one's pwoerlessness over his addictions(sins). The 2nd step is to acknowledge that only God can take the addiction away and the 3rd step is to ask God to do so. And that is why A.A. is the only way addicts can be set free because they know they cannot choose to stop drinking by an act of the human will. So they admit that only God has the power to heal them.

One cannot become born again until he admits he is powerless over his sins and asks Jesus to redeem him. As Jesus stells us, "He who falls on the capstone will be borken in pieces. But he upon whom it falls will be crushed."

So no, we cannot choose to stop sinning any more than we choose to sin as Paul explains in Romans 7:13-25.

 

[dancing queen]

But the alcoholic still chose to start attending the meetings. What is the parralel for a Christian? That we choose to ask God to remove our sins? So is there a choice?

 

[Heidi]

But the alcoholic still chose to start attending the meetings. What is the parralel for a Christian? That we choose to ask God to remove our sins? So is there a choice?

The answer is; "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him."

You seem to be a true seeker because you ask questions and listen to the answers. So I will answer questions only from seeking hearts. But I will not argue with others here, jsut quote scripture. Others can argue with scripture, change the words around, put their own slant on it or believe it, whatever comes from their hearts. But I'm not going to quarrel with them any more, just pass along the word of God.

 

[dancing queen]

I think I asked this before, but am finding this thread hard to keep up with, especially as I am not at home very often when reading it so can't get the bible out or make notes, so sorry if I am making people repeat themselves.

I am happy with "no one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him" (where is that verse by the way? - I will write it down this time!!). I'm sure you told me there were verses that said if the Father draws you, you will definetly come (could you again remind me where). I assume given the previous sentence there are no verses which say the Father draws all, are there verses that say He only draws some in the way outlined in the verse described in your post.

I'm sorry that your answer will probably repeat a lot that has been said before, but I don't have time to go back and search, sorry.

 

[Heidi]

I think I asked this before, but am finding this thread hard to keep up with, especially as I am not at home very often when reading it so can't get the bible out or make notes, so sorry if I am making people repeat themselves.

I am happy with "no one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him" (where is that verse by the way? - I will write it down this time!!). I'm sure you told me there were verses that said if the Father draws you, you will definetly come (could you again remind me where). I assume given the previous sentence there are no verses which say the Father draws all, are there verses that say He only draws some in the way outlined in the verse described in your post.

I'm sorry that your answer will probably repeat a lot that has been said before, but I don't have time to go back and search, sorry.

Yes. The verse is: John 6:44. It also agrees with:

John 15:16,
Romans 10:20
Romans 3:11
John 19:11

So if we're confused about scripture, then interpret it through other scripture and we will find the correct meaning.

 

[dancing queen]

I agree that these verses say as a Christian, I did not seek out God, He chose to reveal Himself to me.

But these verses don't complete the circle for me. None of these verses tell me that if God draws you, you will definetly come.

 

[Heidi]

I agree that these verses say as a Christian, I did not seek out God, He chose to reveal Himself to me.

But these verses don't complete the circle for me. None of these verses tell me that if God draws you, you will definetly come.

Ezekiel 36:27, Romans 9:19, Romans 8:9, 1 John 4:4, Romans 11;29, Matthew 10:29, Philippians 2:13, Romans 8:1, 2 Peter 2:19, and many, many more verses tell us that once God fills us with His Spirit, we cannot go back to darkness because the Spirit is stronger than Satan.

So we no more have the ability to reject God's Spirit, call, gifts, etc. than any power in the universe does. Proverbs 28:16, "In his heart, a man plans his course. But the Lord determines his steps." That means that the Lord determines the steps of all men.

 

[mondar]

I agree that these verses say as a Christian, I did not seek out God, He chose to reveal Himself to me.

But these verses don't complete the circle for me. None of these verses tell me that if God draws you, you will definetly come.

The irristable grace of God comes in two parts. The two parts are John 6:37 in which all the elect are given by the Father to the Son. Ephesians 1:4 tells us the timing of this giving, it occured in eternity past. The second part occurs during our lives. In John 6:44 God draws the elect to faith.

Can we look more closely at John 6:37?
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Notice how many come to Christ that are given by the Father. Some? Most? "All" those given by the Father come to Christ in this verse. The concept of some or most coming cannot be read into the word "All."

Then in John 6:44 we see more about those that were given by the Father in verse 37. He not only gives the elect to the son, he later draws them to the son.

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Now when it says "no man can come." It is talking about our inability to come because of our fallen nature. In the second part of verse 44 it tells us how sinful human nature is overcome. The Father draws them that come.

At the end of verse 44 it tells us the eternal destiny of the ones drawn, they are raised up.

We cannot put a difference between the ones that are drawn, and the ones that come. If you are drawn in verse 44, you are drawn to come to Christ. There are none who are drawn that do not come. Verse 37 has already implied this when it uses the word "all." The word "All" is also found in verse 39. Then inverse 44 the Father has the ministry by which he activates this election, he draws the elect to the son.

To say that the Father gave some to Christ, and then drew these elect, and then some did not come, would be to say that Christ lost some of them that were drawn. How would such a view fit with verse 39?

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Did Christ loose some that were given to him? Did he loose some that were drawn?

 

[Heidi]

The irristable grace of God comes in two parts. The two parts are John 6:37 in which all the elect are given by the Father to the Son. Ephesians 1:4 tells us the timing of this giving, it occured in eternity past. The second part occurs during our lives. In John 6:44 God draws the elect to faith.

Can we look more closely at John 6:37?
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Notice how many come to Christ that are given by the Father. Some? Most? "All" those given by the Father come to Christ in this verse. The concept of some or most coming cannot be read into the word "All."

Then in John 6:44 we see more about those that were given by the Father in verse 37. He not only gives the elect to the son, he later draws them to the son.

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Now when it says "no man can come." It is talking about our inability to come because of our fallen nature. In the second part of verse 44 it tells us how sinful human nature is overcome. The Father draws them that come.

At the end of verse 44 it tells us the eternal destiny of the ones drawn, they are raised up.

We cannot put a difference between the ones that are drawn, and the ones that come. If you are drawn in verse 44, you are drawn to come to Christ. There are none who are drawn that do not come. Verse 37 has already implied this when it uses the word "all." The word "All" is also found in verse 39. Then inverse 44 the Father has the ministry by which he activates this election, he draws the elect to the son.

To say that the Father gave some to Christ, and then drew these elect, and then some did not come, would be to say that Christ lost some of them that were drawn. How would such a view fit with verse 39?

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Did Christ loose some that were given to him? Did he loose some that were drawn?

No, he didn't lose anyone who was drawn because no one can snatch them out of His hands. Good post.

 

[Free]

The Bible makes it clear that we do have free will and that although God draws us, we still make the choice of whether or not we will follow Christ.

 

[mondar]

The Bible makes it clear that we do have free will and that although God draws us, we still make the choice of whether or not we will follow Christ.

Free, it would be fine to have interaction on this issue, but you make an assertion that "The Bible makes it clear." You do not interact with what I said on John 6:37,39,44. You just simply make the assertion.

If that is all you wish to do, is just simply make a vote that I am wrong, thats OK. It would be pereferable if you demonstrate where I have misread the grammar in john 6:37, 39, or 44?

Free, does God have any say in who gets saved? Or maybe God has no will?

 

[Free]

You do not interact with what I said on John 6:37,39,44. You just simply make the assertion.

My assertion is based on the the entirety of Scripture, not just one passage. And the passage in John 6 says nothing more than God draws man, not that God's grace is irresistable or that man has a choice.

 

[mondar]

My assertion is based on the the entirety of Scripture, not just one passage. And the passage in John 6 says nothing more than God draws man, not that God's grace is irresistable or that man has a choice.

Do you understand the difference between scripturally defending your doctrine as compared to making mere assertions? If you go back, there have been posts by some people in which they attempt to demonstrate their doctrine quoting actual verses they think supports free will. You could have used their verses in an attempt to establish your doctrine, and I would address them, but so far you defend your assertions by making more assertions.

One of your assertions is that "John 6 saying nothing more then God draws man." I assume you are talking about John 6:44 specifically. John 6:44 actually teaches much more then that single point. Also in John 6:44 is the statement that man is incapable of coming to Christ. That is the opening statement "No man can come to me."

Then comes the statement in John 6:44 on drawing. If no man can (has the ability to) come to Christ, there is an exception. Some men do actually have the ability to come to Christ, they are the elect that are drawn. The context continually affirms that it is only the elect coming to Christ.

Notice the context.

John 6:37 All that which the Father giveth me shall come unto me;
How many will come? Some or all? If all come, and "All" come, we have one of two options. Either "all" refers to universalism or "all" refers to the elect. The word "All" cannot mean some.

John 6:39 And this is the will of him that sent me, that of all that which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

Again, if "all" is to be understood as all of mankind, and "all" are given to the Son, and he looses none of them, then we again have universalism. IF "All" refers to the elect, then we we do not have universalism.

John 6:40 For this is the will of my Father, that every one that beholdeth the Son, and believeth on him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Here again, we see that John 6 is not referring to a ministry of all mankind. The ones who have eternal life and are raised up on the last day are the elect who believe.

Notice in John 6:44 the people drawn by the Father are also raised up on the last day.

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father that sent me draw him: and I will raise him up in the last day.

The ones drawn, are the same as those given by the Father. The connection is that both come to me (Christ).

To postulate that the ones drawn in verse 44 still do not come is to ignore the rest of the context. The rest of the context speaks of the elect as coming to Christ.

Verse 39 amazes me the most. It is the will of the Father that that Christ loose none. Yet we think that even though this was Gods will that Christ loose none, we can defy the will of God, and over-power Christ, and run off and escape the grace of God.

It aint the way it works. When God changes our nature we do not run away. When he draws us, we come running for our great shepherd. John is later to say that the sheep "hear his voice." When we are drawn, we hear the voice of the shepherd and there is nothing more in life that we want then to hear his voice. We will want to be saved with all our heart. We choose God, because he created us to want him. It is no longer within our nature to rebel. We will want him because he changed us to want him and then the shepherd has called us.

People who believe in free will make analogies of the elect being dragged to salvation. Such analogies are absurd. We are not dragged, when God changes our nature, we come running to him. We choose him not because we are dragged, but because he changes our natures to desire him.

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[jgredline]

Mondar
Are you a hyper Calvinist?

 

[Heidi]

Mondar
Are you a hyper Calvinist?

Jesus says we have one teacher and that's the Christ. In fact Paul says that what causes divisions among Christians is following people. So if I or Mondar agrees with our neighbor, Mr. Jones, on certain issues, that doesn't make us Jonesians. : So let's not bring people into this and only follow the scripture which Mondar does.

 

[mondar]

Mondar
Are you a hyper Calvinist?

jgredline,
I believe in the evangelism of all men.

I believe that it is proper to accept the fellowship those who disagree with me on the sovereignty of God. I think good men can differ in opinion on these issues still be good men.

I believe it is an error to use TULIP as a test of faith, a test of spirituality, or a test of doctrinal orthodoxy. I completely recognize that I will be in heaven with those who denied TULIP on earth.

I believe the value of Christ death is greater then an infinite number of universes full of an infinite number of unbelievers (I guess I believe in infinity too... :D ) If an infinite number of people came to the gospel in faith, it would no more lower the grace of God then a thimble full of water would lower the level of the ocean. The value of Christ death is simply inexhaustible, infinite, and inestimable.

I must admit that I have never read John Calvin, but my wife says I get hyper when I drink cawfee! Does that make me a hyper-Calvinist? :D

 

[Free]

Do you understand the difference between scripturally defending your doctrine as compared to making mere assertions?

I didn't get the number of posts I have from merely making assertions.

You could have used their verses in an attempt to establish your doctrine, and I would address them, but so far you defend your assertions by making more assertions.

At this point I am not interested in debating my position as much as I am in trying to see how you get what you do out of the passage you have given, because it just isn't there.

One of your assertions is that "John 6 saying nothing more then God draws man." I assume you are talking about John 6:44 specifically.

No, I meant the whole passage. But let me restate what I meant in a different way: that passage is neither for nor against the free will of man.

Verse 39 amazes me the most. It is the will of the Father that that Christ loose none. Yet we think that even though this was Gods will that Christ loose none, we can defy the will of God, and over-power Christ, and run off and escape the grace of God.

It should amaze you in light of other Scriptures that state some will turn away from the faith.

We choose God, because he created us to want him

So he didn't create others to want him?

when God changes our nature, we come running to him. We choose him not because we are dragged, but because he changes our natures to desire him.

Speaking of assertions, can you provide Scripture for this?

There are serious theological implications if man has no free will to choose whether or not he will follow Christ.

 

[Heidi]

Speaking of assertions, can you provide Scripture for this?

There are serious theological implications if man has no free will to choose whether or not he will follow Christ.

Do you not understand the transforming power of the Holy Spirit? :o Do you see what he did to Paul? Or not? :o Ezekiel 36:27, "I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and obey my laws." What power in the universe do you believe is stronger than the Holy Spirit to keep God from moving us to follow his decrees and obey his laws? :o 1 John 4:4, "The one who is in you is greater than the one in the world."

When someone heals you of blindness, how much of a decision do you make for your ability to see? :o even if you tried to close your eyes, your body would involuntarily open them.

What serious implications? How is showing how God's transforming power in the human being a bad thing? :o The Holy Spirit shows God's power and God's glory, not man's intelligence, wisdom and pure nature to seek and/or choose God. The latter comes from the sin of pride so it's a false teaching.

 

[Vic C.]

Heidi, may I ask without you getting offended, if you would take the time to read from Ezekiel 36:22-38 and count how many time the word Israel is mentioned? This should give you hint as to whom the passage is speaking to.

This is exactly what I meant by rightly diving the word of God and to not take verses out of their context, because that particular verse is not talking to us.

The whole chapter is speaking to Israel, actually Judah, about prophecies concerning their repemption.

 

[Heidi]

Heidi, may I ask without you getting offended, if you would take the time to read from Ezekiel 36:22-38 and count how many time the word Israel is mentioned? This should give you hint as to whom the passage is speaking to.

This is exactly what I meant by rightly diving the word of God and to not take verses out of their context, because that particular verse is not talking to us.

The whole chapter is speaking to Judah while they were in captiviry in Babylon and prophecies concerning their repemption.

Once you understand, Romans 9:6, you will understand who God is talking about, and it's not the disobedient Jews. ;-) It's those chosen before the cdreation of the world, God's elect. And since God sent the Holy Spirit to the Gentiles, then it's God's elect that passage is talking about.


Romans 9:6, "...For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. It is through Isaac that your offspring will be recknoned. In other words, it is not the natural children of Israel who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring."

God is blinding the eyes of the jews "until the full number of the Gentiles comes in. Romans 11: 30, " Just as you who were at ome time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a reusult of their disobedience, so they too have now become disobedient as a result of God's mercy to you. Foar God has bound all men over to disobedience so he can have mercy on them all." So you need to put that passage together with Ezekiel 36:27 to see who God is talking about when he talks about Israel.

You also need to put this verse in Genesis 9:27 together with Ezekiel, "May God extend the territoy of the Japheth, May Japheth live in the tents of Shem..." That means only through the remant (Jews from Judah)along with the Gentiles who were chosen before the creation of the world are Israel.

So I hope you won't be offended when I say you are in error because God's Spirit doesn't reside in many Jews, but instead, in many Gentiles.