Free will or no free will?

[mondar]

Are you making a difference between a human decision, and faith?

Absolutely. If you say that faith is a decision (rather than the gift of God) then the righteousness attributed to it is but filthy rags.

OK, so the nature of faith does not involve a decision. Lets now move to volition or will.

Do you see any difference between the terms "will" and "free will?"

If I understand your argument, it goes like this------> There is no free will in salvation because man has no volitional will.

I guess I am looking at it differently. I would say man has volition or will. He has the "will" to rebel. Man can "choose" any path of sin he desires. Therefore he has a will, but the will is enslaved to his sin nature. God enters the picture and frees man from his slavery to sin through regeneration. All who are regenerated will immediately then use their will in faith. Just as they served their old master, sin, they now serve their new master, God. Thus, I do see a will, but not a freedom to the will.

So then when I look at a text like John 1:13 I understand it to be saying that the new birth is by Gods will. I think we would agree that man cannot regenerate himself, nor can man change his own nature. The new birth is the regeneration part. Man merely responds to his own nature. The unregenerate exercise their fallen will in reprobation. Of course God is a part of that in hardening hearts. The elect exercise their regenerated will in faith.

So then, man has a will in salvation, but it is not free. Man has a will in salvation, but the dictates of his will are according to his nature. And God wills the change in the nature of those whom he has chosen. So then, justification is by faith alone; and faith is the work of regeneration; and regeneration is the work of God.

OK, I have spoken enough. How do you see it?

 

[Bubba]

Hi Bubba

In a nutshell, this is what I subscribe to.

Man is born devoid of spirit - dead in trespasses and sin. Jesus came that man might have life. He defeated death through his own death and resurrection. When He returned to the Father He sent the Holy Spirit that had previously dwelt WITH man to now dwell IN man. This impartation of the Spirit to dwell IN man is the birth of the spirit and everyone who receives this gift of life will live forever. Having been given the gift of life, man is made accountable for the gift and he will be judged according to what he has done with it – some to eternal reward and some to eternal punishment.

Hey Mutzrein, how are you this wonderful morning?
Do you believe there was a time before that man had the Spirit?
Bubba

 

[mutzrein]

Hi Bubba

In a nutshell, this is what I subscribe to.

Man is born devoid of spirit - dead in trespasses and sin. Jesus came that man might have life. He defeated death through his own death and resurrection. When He returned to the Father He sent the Holy Spirit that had previously dwelt WITH man to now dwell IN man. This impartation of the Spirit to dwell IN man is the birth of the spirit and everyone who receives this gift of life will live forever. Having been given the gift of life, man is made accountable for the gift and he will be judged according to what he has done with it – some to eternal reward and some to eternal punishment.

Hey Mutzrein, how are you this wonderful morning?
Do you believe there was a time before that man had the Spirit?
Bubba

Yes wonderful indeed since it is 2.45am here. Couldn't sleep ... and nursing a faithful old dog into the bargain. Anyway, let me see if I understand your question. Do you mean, was there a time in history that man did not have the Spirit dwelling in him? Most definitely. It has only been possible for man to have been born of the Spirit since the Spirit was first given to the apostles at pentecost.

 

[Bubba]

Hi Bubba

In a nutshell, this is what I subscribe to.

Man is born devoid of spirit - dead in trespasses and sin. Jesus came that man might have life. He defeated death through his own death and resurrection. When He returned to the Father He sent the Holy Spirit that had previously dwelt WITH man to now dwell IN man. This impartation of the Spirit to dwell IN man is the birth of the spirit and everyone who receives this gift of life will live forever. Having been given the gift of life, man is made accountable for the gift and he will be judged according to what he has done with it – some to eternal reward and some to eternal punishment.

Hey Mutzrein, how are you this wonderful morning?
Do you believe there was a time before that man had the Spirit?
Bubba

Yes wonderful indeed since it is 2.45am here. Couldn't sleep ... and nursing a faithful old dog into the bargain. Anyway, let me see if I understand your question. Do you mean, was there a time in history that man did not have the Spirit dwelling in him? Most definitely. It has only been possible for man to have been born of the Spirit since the Spirit was first given to the apostles at pentecost.

Mutzrein,
I forgot that you are on the other side of the world, but good morning anyway though it is early for you. I didn't recognize your intent that the Holy Spirit was with man but not in man prior to Pentecost. What is your take on those who the Lutherans would say belong to the "red thread" (Christ) in the Old Testament, that seem to follow a line of the elect from the time of Cain and Abel?
Bubba

 

[Biblereader]

I suspect that those who say that man has a choice are trying to justify the thought that a righteous God would not condemn man for something that was outside of his own decision. And if you are wondering, I don't subscribe to either thought.

When I hear people say they have no free will, I hear people who are afraid, and who KNOW they will be held accountable for their sins, which probably makes them mad.
Maybe they want to keep on doing their sins, not struggle against it, just blame God.

Men and women have been blaming everyone else, since the Garden of Eden.
And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?
12: And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.
13: And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.

Adam blamed God, AND Eve! Eve blamed the devil, and refused to fess up that she had chosen to eat the fruit.
Ever since that, humans have blamed God. FOR ANYTHING THEY DON"T LIKE!

 

[Bubba]

Biblereader

When I hear people say they have no free will, I hear people who are afraid, and who KNOW they will be held accountable for their sins, which probably makes them mad.
Maybe they want to keep on doing their sins, not struggle against it, just blame God.

Men and women have been blaming everyone else, since the Garden of Eden.
And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?
12: And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.
13: And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.

Adam blamed God, AND Eve! Eve blamed the devil, and refused to fess up that she had chosen to eat the fruit.
Ever since that, humans have blamed God. FOR ANYTHING THEY DON"T LIKE!

Biblereader,
It is not understanding that man is held accountable for sins that causes them to not believe in "freewill", it is coming to a understanding of the depravity of mankind and that no man will seek God (Romans 3:10-18) without God first making them alive to that which is Spiritual. I agree with Mutzrein, that many who believe in "freewill", feel obligated to defend God in the area of evil and the traditional view of eternal punishment as just, because man has made the choice to not believe. I say, let Scripture be true and God be God.
Grace, Bubba

 

[Imagican]

Biblereader,

Interesting observation. For it is correct in that rarely has man ACCEPTED his responsibility for their shortcomings. Not only since Adam and Eve, but we even have Peter as example of one unable to FACE their responsibilities. And GOD KNOWS IT. And He sympathizes with us in that He IS a 'forgiving God'. That is the REASON that Christ was sent to begin with. For OUR forgiveness. But it was NOT a 'gift offered' UNTIL or UNLESS it is ACCEPTED. For there will be MANY that Christ DIED FOR yet will NEVER accept the GIFT offered.

Now, some would offer that God CHOOSES who He will reveal Himself to. I have a difficult time with this one for the simple FACT that we SEE throughout scripture that there have been THOSE throughout the world that upon HEARING the Word became ACCEPTERS of the gift offered.

I KNOW that the word states that NO ONE is able to come to Christ EXCEPT through the WILL of God. But we also have the words of Christ HIMSELF that state that He DIED for ALL MANKIND. Couple these two together and we see that it IS God's WILL that ALL men COME TO HIM. But all men will NOT 'choose' to accept Christ INTO their hearts.

I see many that would offer that they KNOW that a 'God' exists but they HATE Him. An outright statement of admittance but with DENIAL of the LOVE. These have been OFFERED the 'gift' but have simply THROWN it BACK in God's FACE. If NOT 'choice' then HOW is it that these are able to DO what they DO?

And if not for 'choice', how is it that we are ABLE to BE tempted? For what we desire is what is dangled in our faces, (proverbial carrot on the stick), and whether we 'go for it' or NOT is up to US. For Satan CAN be thwarted. We have been TOLD that we CAN resist the Devil. And to 'put up' such resistance would BE BY CHOICE. For it IS 'those that CHOOSE to fail to temptation that DO SO WILLINGLY. That is not to say that there may well be repentance AFTER the FACT. But up UNTIL the temptation was ACCEPTED and the act committed, it was a MATTER OF CHOICE. That the choice may SEEM difficult is irrelevant to the evidence of choice to begin with.

And 'what kind of God' would REFUSE one that TRULY sought out His existence and LOVE? For IF 'election' is an ACT of God, then what about those that are NOT elected. These are UNABLE to come to an understanding of A Creator? These are DOOMED from the beginning of time to be punished or FOREVER separated from God without ANY choice of their own? What a bizaar God that would be indeed. For where is the TRUE LOVE that could DENY anyone that sought out their Creator and Father? We even have the parable of the 'prodigal son'. The one that chose to FOLLOW the world. But when he decided to 'come back home', he was WELCOMED with OPEN arms by HIS FATHER.

No, my friends, the ANGELS themselves rejoice EACH and EVERY time one CHOOSES to accept Christ into their HEARTS. The means by which one COMES to Christ are VARIED and not able to be COMPLETELY understood by ANY. For each time I hear testimony on HOW one CAME TO CHRIST, it vairies with EACH AND EVERY PERSON. Some come willingly at an early age, some on their deathbeds. Some come fighting all the way and some through tragic events in their lives, while most of us struggle with an in and out kind of relationship that USUALLY grows STRONGER with time. But ALL do so out of choice. For Satan HAD a choice and He KNOWS that we too have the same CHOICE. We can either submit to the will of God or we can DENY His will. But either way it is a choice that leads down ONE path or another.

And folks, it is NOT UP TO US as to HOW God CHOOSES. It is simply a matter of OUR submission to HIS Will. That it varies from ONE to another of His children HOW they are BROUGHT to the TRUTH is a SIGN that it is NOT ONLY OUR WAY that is able to bring about forgiveness. For HOW is able to describe the HEART OF GOD; the CREATOR of US and the epitomy of LOVE?

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Bubba]

Biblereader,

Interesting observation. For it is correct in that rarely has man ACCEPTED his responsibility for their shortcomings. Not only since Adam and Eve, but we even have Peter as example of one unable to FACE their responsibilities. And GOD KNOWS IT. And He sympathizes with us in that He IS a 'forgiving God'. That is the REASON that Christ was sent to begin with. For OUR forgiveness. But it was NOT a 'gift offered' UNTIL or UNLESS it is ACCEPTED. For there will be MANY that Christ DIED FOR yet will NEVER accept the GIFT offered.

Now, some would offer that God CHOOSES who He will reveal Himself to. I have a difficult time with this one for the simple FACT that we SEE throughout scripture that there have been THOSE throughout the world that upon HEARING the Word became ACCEPTERS of the gift offered.

I KNOW that the word states that NO ONE is able to come to Christ EXCEPT through the WILL of God. But we also have the words of Christ HIMSELF that state that He DIED for ALL MANKIND. Couple these two together and we see that it IS God's WILL that ALL men COME TO HIM. But all men will NOT 'choose' to accept Christ INTO their hearts.

I see many that would offer that they KNOW that a 'God' exists but they HATE Him. An outright statement of admittance but with DENIAL of the LOVE. These have been OFFERED the 'gift' but have simply THROWN it BACK in God's FACE. If NOT 'choice' then HOW is it that these are able to DO what they DO?

And if not for 'choice', how is it that we are ABLE to BE tempted? For what we desire is what is dangled in our faces, (proverbial carrot on the stick), and whether we 'go for it' or NOT is up to US. For Satan CAN be thwarted. We have been TOLD that we CAN resist the Devil. And to 'put up' such resistance would BE BY CHOICE. For it IS 'those that CHOOSE to fail to temptation that DO SO WILLINGLY. That is not to say that there may well be repentance AFTER the FACT. But up UNTIL the temptation was ACCEPTED and the act committed, it was a MATTER OF CHOICE. That the choice may SEEM difficult is irrelevant to the evidence of choice to begin with.

And 'what kind of God' would REFUSE one that TRULY sought out His existence and LOVE? For IF 'election' is an ACT of God, then what about those that are NOT elected. These are UNABLE to come to an understanding of A Creator? These are DOOMED from the beginning of time to be punished or FOREVER separated from God without ANY choice of their own? What a bizaar God that would be indeed. For where is the TRUE LOVE that could DENY anyone that sought out their Creator and Father? We even have the parable of the 'prodigal son'. The one that chose to FOLLOW the world. But when he decided to 'come back home', he was WELCOMED with OPEN arms by HIS FATHER.

No, my friends, the ANGELS themselves rejoice EACH and EVERY time one CHOOSES to accept Christ into their HEARTS. The means by which one COMES to Christ are VARIED and not able to be COMPLETELY understood by ANY. For each time I hear testimony on HOW one CAME TO CHRIST, it vairies with EACH AND EVERY PERSON. Some come willingly at an early age, some on their deathbeds. Some come fighting all the way and some through tragic events in their lives, while most of us struggle with an in and out kind of relationship that USUALLY grows STRONGER with time. But ALL do so out of choice. For Satan HAD a choice and He KNOWS that we too have the same CHOICE. We can either submit to the will of God or we can DENY His will. But either way it is a choice that leads down ONE path or another.

And folks, it is NOT UP TO US as to HOW God CHOOSES. It is simply a matter of OUR submission to HIS Will. That it varies from ONE to another of His children HOW they are BROUGHT to the TRUTH is a SIGN that it is NOT ONLY OUR WAY that is able to bring about forgiveness. For HOW is able to describe the HEART OF GOD; the CREATOR of US and the epitomy of LOVE?

Blessings,

MEC

Literally, millions of people have gone to their graves without ever knowing about Jesus and I read no where in Scripture the idea of age of accountability, and it is a far stretch to say God will receive those of “good will†who have lived a halfway decent life and have never heard of Jesus. A young woman could be raped and killed who will spend eternity in hell because she didn’t receive Jesus prior to her demise. Her killer while on death row, says yes to Jesus and will now spend eternity in heavenly bliss. Tell me again about the justice of God and how freewill answers the problem with evil and eternal punishment. The fact of the matter, is that in this realm there are those who will not receive revelation of Jesus and I personally reconcile this problem, that in the next realm God will make provision for them, because I do believe He is the Saviour of all men, and especially those who believe (1Tim. 4:10 and 1John2:2).
Grace, Bubba

 

[Vic C.]

Hi Bubba... there is a quote that needs a fixin' at the top of the page. 8-)

 

[Biblereader]

Biblereader,


But all men will NOT 'choose' to accept Christ INTO their hearts.

These have been OFFERED the 'gift' but have simply THROWN it BACK in God's FACE. If NOT 'choice' then HOW is it that these are able to DO what they DO?

And if not for 'choice', how is it that we are ABLE to BE tempted? For what we desire is what is dangled in our faces, (proverbial carrot on the stick), and whether we 'go for it' or NOT is up to US. For Satan CAN be thwarted. We have been TOLD that we CAN resist the Devil. And to 'put up' such resistance would BE BY CHOICE. For it IS 'those that CHOOSE to fail to temptation that DO SO WILLINGLY.

And 'what kind of God' would REFUSE one that TRULY sought out His existence and LOVE? For IF 'election' is an ACT of God, then what about those that are NOT elected. These are UNABLE to come to an understanding of A Creator? These are DOOMED from the beginning of time to be punished or FOREVER separated from God without ANY choice of their own?
And folks, it is NOT UP TO US as to HOW God CHOOSES. It is simply a matter of OUR submission to HIS Will. That it varies from ONE to another of His children HOW they are BROUGHT to the TRUTH is a SIGN that it is NOT ONLY OUR WAY that is able to bring about forgiveness. For HOW is able to describe the HEART OF GOD; the CREATOR of US and the epitomy of LOVE?

Blessings,

MEC

And, why are there warnings about falling away, AFTER accepting Jesus?
And, in the Holy Scriptures, God plainly says that He shows himself to EVERYONE, and they WILLINGLY ARE IGNORANT...
And, God says this, about those who decide to blame God for THEIR lack of choosing Jesus:
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19: Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20: For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

It's so obvious, that men have choice, and have responsibility. I don't see HOW a person can read the bible, and miss that!!

 

[Biblereader]

and the traditional view of eternal punishment as just,

AH! Here's a red flag I missed the first time I read your reply.

Please define "traditional view" of eternal punishment, and precisely contrast it
to whatever non-traditional view you believe.

 

[Bubba]

and the traditional view of eternal punishment as just,

AH! Here's a red flag I missed the first time I read your reply.

Please define "traditional view" of eternal punishment, and precisely contrast it
to whatever non-traditional view you believe.

Biblereader,
Not much of a "red flag", I have mentioned my view of universal reconciliation frequently on my posts. Fairly new understanding for me, I had been a person who believed in eternal punishment for years (traditional). They do not allow UR discussion here, so I can't get into it with you.
Bubba

 

[mutzrein]

I suspect that those who say that man has a choice are trying to justify the thought that a righteous God would not condemn man for something that was outside of his own decision. And if you are wondering, I don't subscribe to either thought.

When I hear people say they have no free will, I hear people who are afraid, and who KNOW they will be held accountable for their sins, which probably makes them mad.
Maybe they want to keep on doing their sins, not struggle against it, just blame God.

Men and women have been blaming everyone else, since the Garden of Eden.
And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?
12: And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.
13: And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.

I think I may have added this part of the conversation elsewhere but since it is often missed it may bear repeating.

And the Lord God turned to the serpent and said, 'what is it that thou hast done?' And the serpent did not have a leg to stand on.

 

[mutzrein]

Mutzrein,
I forgot that you are on the other side of the world, but good morning anyway though it is early for you. I didn't recognize your intent that the Holy Spirit was with man but not in man prior to Pentecost. What is your take on those who the Lutherans would say belong to the "red thread" (Christ) in the Old Testament, that seem to follow a line of the elect from the time of Cain and Abel?
Bubba

I’m not sure of this is what you want but . . .

I’m conscious that for as long as man has had breath, God has elected certain ones to be his servants. I wouldn’t call all of them ‘elect’ though, as we commonly refer to the elect today. We do know that God made a covenant with Abraham - to him and to his descendants. These were God’s people – the elect if you like. To these, God gave the (imperfect) law until such time as the (perfect) Christ should come.

Now it is commonly accepted that salvation is by faith – but many people interpret this ‘faith’ to be something that can be appropriated in order to attain salvation. In the same way that one aligns oneself to the tenets of a political party some see the acceptance of ‘Christ, the son of God who died for our sins’ as the faith that brings them to this so-called salvation.

But what about the faith that was attributed to those before Christ. What about the faith that was credited as righteousness – then and now.

So I believe, irrespective of whether a man or woman lived before or after Christ, it is faith that ‘makes’ one righteous. And these are the elect.

 

[Bubba]

Mutzrein,
I forgot that you are on the other side of the world, but good morning anyway though it is early for you. I didn't recognize your intent that the Holy Spirit was with man but not in man prior to Pentecost. What is your take on those who the Lutherans would say belong to the "red thread" (Christ) in the Old Testament, that seem to follow a line of the elect from the time of Cain and Abel?
Bubba

I’m not sure of this is what you want but . . .

I’m conscious that for as long as man has had breath, God has elected certain ones to be his servants. I wouldn’t call all of them ‘elect’ though, as we commonly refer to the elect today. We do know that God made a covenant with Abraham - to him and to his descendants. These were God’s people – the elect if you like. To these, God gave the (imperfect) law until such time as the (perfect) Christ should come.

Now it is commonly accepted that salvation is by faith – but many people interpret this ‘faith’ to be something that can be appropriated in order to attain salvation. In the same way that one aligns oneself to the tenets of a political party some see the acceptance of ‘Christ, the son of God who died for our sins’ as the faith that brings them to this so-called salvation.

But what about the faith that was attributed to those before Christ. What about the faith that was credited as righteousness – then and now.

So I believe, irrespective of whether a man or woman lived before or after Christ, it is faith that ‘makes’ one righteous. And these are the elect.

Mutzrein,
Do you see our faith (believer) as outside of ourselves, in that we receive it as a gift? I think you do and if that is the case, I would agree.
Grace, Bubba

 

[Biblereader]

Biblereader,
Not much of a "red flag", I have mentioned my view of universal reconciliation frequently on my posts. Fairly new understanding for me, I had been a person who believed in eternal punishment for years (traditional). They do not allow UR discussion here, so I can't get into it with you.
Bubba

You don't believe in eternal torment, eternal punishment, do you?

You believe: Jesus died for all, and all will be reconciled to God.
What do you do with the myriad of bible truths that tell you of the eternity that awaits those who reject Jesus?

 

[Biblereader]

A young woman could be raped and killed who will spend eternity in hell because she didn’t receive Jesus prior to her demise. Her killer while on death row, says yes to Jesus and will now spend eternity in heavenly bliss. Tell me again about the justice of God and how freewill answers the problem with evil and eternal punishment.

This indeed seems unjust, but, you must consider the fact that the woman who was raped and killed was given tailor made opportunities, to accept Jesus Christ.
Tailor made, at a time and place especially for her. But, she refused.

Another thought, you don't know the last thoughts in the young woman's mind, as she lay dying, she very well might have cried out, JESUS SAVE ME! You don't know.

I had a friend who committed suicide. She was a professing Christian, too, but, she decided to overdose. I don't know, if, right before she lost consciousness, she cried to Jesus, asking Him to forgive her, and to save her. I don't know. It still makes me sad to think of her young life wasted by so much doubt, insecurities, and anxiety.

Bubba, you must never allow someone to lie to you about eternal punishment. It will happen. God is perfect, and perfectly just.

 

[Vic C.]

Biblereader,
Not much of a "red flag", I have mentioned my view of universal reconciliation frequently on my posts. Fairly new understanding for me, I had been a person who believed in eternal punishment for years (traditional). They do not allow UR discussion here, so I can't get into it with you.
Bubba

You don't believe in eternal torment, eternal punishment, do you?

You believe: Jesus died for all, and all will be reconciled to God.
What do you do with the myriad of bible truths that tell you of the eternity that awaits those who reject Jesus?

Bubba is to be commended for not going too far on this issue, even though I had to edit a couple of posts. ;-) Please don't tempt him into talking about a subject that is not allowed and one that is more volatile than arguing over RC doctrine.

Thanks.

 

[Imagican]

I believe that it would be MORE prudent to FOCUS on LIFE than 'death' to BEGIN with. For it is NOT the threat of punishment that SHOULD be the determining factor of our faith. But that we CHOOSE love over DEATH.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Bubba]

I believe that it would be MORE prudent to FOCUS on LIFE than 'death' to BEGIN with. For it is NOT the threat of punishment that SHOULD be the determining factor of our faith. But that we CHOOSE love over DEATH.

Blessings,

MEC

Mec,
In a sense I would agree, but how we see our heavenly Father in regards to the lost is paramount to our ability to love humanity outside of the faith.
Bubba