Christian Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
-
Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
-
Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
-
-
Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
-
-
How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
-
Free will or no free will?
- Thread starter Heidi
- Start date
Bubba said:
Praise God for His wondrous love that He has poured out unto us - and which of course enables us to love others.
Yet I would maintain that His love is directed to those who are (and will be) His children - and not to ALL.
What do you mean by 'this realm'?
Blessings
Mutzrein,
I am a 4-point Calvinist (for lack of another label), only “limited atonement†I find fault with. Up until recently I was a 5-point Calvinist. Basically, I believe that all individuals in this realm since Adam and Eve, need to be regenerated by the Holy Spirit, such is the extent of our depravity. In the next realm, I believe all those who did not know the Lord Jesus in the first, will eventually in the next. Whatever Hell might be, it is remedial and just for each individual there. For some Hell will not be pleasant, for others it may simply be a revelation of who Jesus is. In the end, all people will be reconciled to the Father. Wishful thinking? May be, but I do not think so, but the gracious monitors will not let me elaborate more.
Grace, Bubba
Bubba said:
Yes - sorry I was playing dumb about Calvin. The dog is poorly - and we have a bad prognosis. He's virtually being kept alive by drugs for a few days and will be put to sleep this weekend probably.
So tell about these realms. What is the fundamental premise that allows one to leave one realm and enter the other?
Imagican said:
The sense of it I get is that a freewill is a will that is free of God. There's your will and then there is God's will. But let's look at the Scriptures. Pr. 16:9 'A man's mind plans his way but the LORD directs his steps.' It says a man's mind plans his way. Definitely we do plan our way. Everyone plans their way. But the plan is made where? In your mind. Your mind is planning. So you might have it in your mind to do something. But it doesn't mean you can do it. It doesn't mean you will do it. It doesn't mean you will accomplish your plan. The LORD directs a man's steps. If your plan isn't his plan, then it won't happen. You can't even come to Christ unless God draws you. You can plan it. You can have it in your mind to do something. But God will thwart the plans of the evil one and he will save his sons.
Nope. Not by your choice. This is because God acts on the human spirit. It is his spirit afterall. His breath. It comes from him. He can harden the heart. He can fill men with anger. 'Why does he still find fault?' Paul explained it to the Romans. According to the Scriptures, God said, 'I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy'. So election doesn't depend on man's will or exertion. God hardens the heart of whoever he wills. Romans 9:18
It's not by choice that we hear and believe. We heard because God willed it that we should hear and we believed because God gave us a new spirit and a new heart to believe. I'm not talking about the Holy Spirit. I'm talking about the human spirit; the spirit we were born with. Our spirit is in agreement with the Holy Spirit.
So what I'm saying is against this 'total depravity' thing I'm hearing. Unless the understanding of 'total depravity' applies to the Jews and all men before John and Jesus. This I would agree with. But I don't like this totally depraved teaching, what I'm hearing. Do not think you were totally depraved. Maybe in your minds you were. You were living in sin before you were saved but your spirit was not of this world. You believed because you are his sheep.
Didn't you all feel like you didn't belong to the world? Didn't you all make every effort to fit in with the world? When you saw people mocking God, didn't you all try to be like them? Didn't you all go after the pleasures of the world like you saw everyone was doing?
But in time, you heard.
Didn't you become sons of God? Do you even understand what a 'son' of God is? A 'son' of man is someone to whom the words of God come. A prophet. A 'son' of God is literally a spring of living water. God is in you. You are in Christ. Literally it means you have the mind of Christ.
Mutzrein,
Sorry to read that your dog is doing poorly. Mutzrein please read through these verses and think about the future of mankind even after this life (realm).
Bubba
1 Corinthians 15:20-28, “20But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21For as by a man came death,by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. 22For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. 23But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. 24Then (comes) the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. 25For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27For "God has put all things in subjection under his feet." But when it says, "all things are put in subjection," it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. 28When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.â€Â
And Romans 5:6-18, 6For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7For one will scarcely die for a righteous personâ€â€though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die 8but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him fromthe wrath of God. 10For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. 11More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.
12Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned 13for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. 14Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.
15But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man’s trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. 16And the free gift is not like the result of that one man’s sin. For(the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. 17For if, because of one man’s trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.
18Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.
And Ephesians 1:7-11, “ In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. 11In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, “
Definition of the use of the term "free will" in theology
The term "free will" involves the extent to which we are under the power of our sin nature. As MarkT notes, this is especially with regard to salvation.
The lesser position is Calvinism, in which our will is under the bondage of our sin nature, and thus our will is not free. Because our will is under the bondage of our sin nature, we are rebels against God by nature. Calvinist takes a lesser view of the freedom of the will, and a greater view of the sin nature of man. In this theology, there is no internal difference between those that believe and those who are unbelievers. The source of faith is in God's decision. God has the free will to decide who will come to faith, and who will not.
In Arminianism and Pelagianism, we are not in rebellion against God by nature. but merely not following God completely. Arminianism and Pelagianism take a lesser view of the power of the sin nature. In these theologies there is no bondage of the sin nature. Rather, the extent of the power of the sin nature is seen as merely tripping us up. Rather, we are merely tripped up by our sin nature once in a while in this theology. Man is not a rebel against God by nature, but merely not quite good enough to make it. You might hear the concept of "no one is perfect." In these theologies, the source of faith is man. Mans approaches God in faith by his own free will. God might have some minor role in attempting to bring all men to faith.
It seems to me a major issue between Calvinists and the Arminian/Pelagian theologies is the issue of responsibility. Arminian/Pelagians believe that man cannot be held accountable for his rebellion unless he has a will unrestricted by his sin nature. On the other hand, Calvinists believe that man is accountable for his rebellion because of the sin of Adam. The judgment of death was passed upon all mankind in Adams sin (Rom 5). Furthermore, Calvinists recognize that man is accountable because God's revelation is universal (Rm 1:20) and this leaves man without excuse.
A few good reads...
--- The early Church Fathers and free will (the cannons of the council of orange in 529AD.
http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/a ... range.html
--- Augustine on free will http://www.lgmarshall.org/Augustine/aug ... grace.html
--- Walter Chantry on free will http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/a ... antry.html
MarkT said:
The term "free will" involves the extent to which we are under the power of our sin nature. As MarkT notes, this is especially with regard to salvation.
The lesser position is Calvinism, in which our will is under the bondage of our sin nature, and thus our will is not free. Because our will is under the bondage of our sin nature, we are rebels against God by nature. Calvinist takes a lesser view of the freedom of the will, and a greater view of the sin nature of man. In this theology, there is no internal difference between those that believe and those who are unbelievers. The source of faith is in God's decision. God has the free will to decide who will come to faith, and who will not.
In Arminianism and Pelagianism, we are not in rebellion against God by nature. but merely not following God completely. Arminianism and Pelagianism take a lesser view of the power of the sin nature. In these theologies there is no bondage of the sin nature. Rather, the extent of the power of the sin nature is seen as merely tripping us up. Rather, we are merely tripped up by our sin nature once in a while in this theology. Man is not a rebel against God by nature, but merely not quite good enough to make it. You might hear the concept of "no one is perfect." In these theologies, the source of faith is man. Mans approaches God in faith by his own free will. God might have some minor role in attempting to bring all men to faith.
It seems to me a major issue between Calvinists and the Arminian/Pelagian theologies is the issue of responsibility. Arminian/Pelagians believe that man cannot be held accountable for his rebellion unless he has a will unrestricted by his sin nature. On the other hand, Calvinists believe that man is accountable for his rebellion because of the sin of Adam. The judgment of death was passed upon all mankind in Adams sin (Rom 5). Furthermore, Calvinists recognize that man is accountable because God's revelation is universal (Rm 1:20) and this leaves man without excuse.
A few good reads...
--- The early Church Fathers and free will (the cannons of the council of orange in 529AD.
http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/a ... range.html
--- Augustine on free will http://www.lgmarshall.org/Augustine/aug ... grace.html
--- Walter Chantry on free will http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/a ... antry.html
I
Imagican
Guest
Wow,
From the REASONING offered above: Even those that CHOOSE to follow Satan are DIRECTED FROM GOD TO DO SO? Ludicrous. A LOVING GOD 'directs' the path of one that CHOOSES to FOLLOW Satan. You CAN'T be serious????????????????
We are to SUBMIT to the Will of God. God does NOT MAKE US SUBMIT. That is a CHOICE that we either MAKE or DON'T make.
Yes, God IS 'all powerful'. But does He CHOOSE to exert His will in EVERY aspect of EVERY MAN'S life? Of course not. If this WERE the case, then NONE would be LOST. For God loves EACH and EVERY one of His creations. That He is able to HATE their 'ways' is inevitable. But that He LOVES the 'creation' is WITHOUT doubt. For even when He repented of His creation, there was STILL love in His heart FOR 'creation'. Otherwise it would have been UTTERLY destroyed.
Golly guys, it must be NICE to 'think' that an INDIVIDUAL is SO 'special' that God PICKED them to reveal Himself to THEM while there are OTHERS that will NEVER be 'given' such an opportunity. No wonder we have such a 'denominational MENTALITY'. For it is OUR way or NO WAY. In total opposition to the Word which offers that it's GOD'S way ONLY. And WHO among us is ABLE to utterly discern HIS WAY? Who among us is able to OFFER the JUDGEMENT of God?
So, if I were to accept and BELIEVE that it IS God that directs our EVERY step, then I would be FORCED to BELIEVE that the 'serial killer' is directed by God Himself. Or the pedophile is DOING God's WILL. And so too would I have to ascribe to a belief in SATANISM for the sake of God DIRECTING the steps of those that SO BELIEVE. Not I says me. You won't 'trap ME' into such judgement of mankind. And you won't influence ME to BELIEVE in a God that is simply PLAYING a 'game' with mankind. For that is EXACTLY what would be 'taking place' if there were a God that DIRECTED His children in DISOBEDIENCE. That He may WELL harden the hearts of those that REFUSE Him is without doubt. That Pharoah's heart was 'hardened' for a PURPOSE is without doubt. But it was NOT God's WILL that Pharoah MURDER His children. He ALLOWED it and in this respect MANY are CONFUSED so far as 'God's will' is CONCERNED. But God's will is that NONE shoulc suffer. That they DO is not DUE to HIS FORCING them into the decisions that they MAKE.
And what an irresponsible life we could lead indeed IF were were ABLE to convince ourselves that we have NO CHOICE. That there is NO 'free will' and that ALL that we do is directed by God. REAL EASY at this point to say, "We're ALL sinners but SO WHAT; it's GOD'S Will. But I am SAVED through His grace that that is WHY I'm going to heaven and those others that God CHOOSES to condemn aren't for HIS OWN SAKE. That they had NO CHOICE or FREE WILL to resist the Devil. That God MADE them FOLLOW Satan......................................... NOPE, don't wash folks.
Adam was punished for disobedience. ADAM HAD FREE WILL. Eve was punished for disobedience. Eve HAD FREE WILL. And ALL that have CHOSEN to follow Satan HAVE FREE WILL and that is HOW they will be punished accordingly; as to HOW they chose to EXHIBIT their FREE WILL. Whether it is through SUBMISSION to God's will, (giving UP their OWN will or ALLOWING it to BE CONFORMED to that of the Father), or REBELION AGAINST God's will through our OWN selfish desires, we will be JUDGED ACCORDING to 'free will' and "choice''. For there is NO OTHER way that would make it POSSIBLE for us to BE the 'children of God'. We are NOT puppets of God. That is rediculous 'thinking' that can ONLY lead to an "UTTER LACK OF RESPONSIBILITY". And if ANYTHING, we ARE to BE responsible for our SUBMISSION, whether to God, or OURSELVES that CHOICE is one that WE must MAKE.
And IF there is argument against what I offer here, then I would challenge ANYONE to offer THEIR OWN explanation as to WHY God MAKES them SINNERS every day of their lives. Why has God offered His Son in sacrifice for those that CANNOT 'choose' to FOLLOW Him. And WHY have we NOT been given this understanding in The Word. For we are told to SERVE WILLINGLY. We are told to server in FEAR and TREMBLING. We are TOLD to SUBMIT ourselves to the WILL of God. We are told to live EACH day like it is the LAST. And we are told to pray and fast. Now, how many DO SO without FAIL through the WILL of God? How many are ABLE NOT to SIN through the WiLL of God. And which among us is NOT able to 'turn our backs on God'? Choosing to follow SELF rather than the CREATOR?
That there are SO MANY 'false gods' PROVES 'free will'. That there are SO MANY DIFFERENT interpretations of God's Word SHOWS 'free will' at its WORSE. That there are SO MANY that CHOOSE to FOLLOW 'false gods' offers the ULTIMATE example of 'free will' and that there are those that CHOOSE to follow so is the extent of the degredation that 'free will' is able to PRODUCE.
And WHO could believe in a God that would condemn ANYONE before EVEN being 'given a chance'? Wow, what a mysterious God indeed. One that would MAKE some suffer and save others........... And HOW is it DETERMINED who He SAVES And WHO He has condemned from the BEGINNING? Does He simply 'cast lots' or 'roll the dice'? Eny meny miny mo? Hmmmmm.......sounds kind of 'childish to me'. Not a very condusive way to 'run' a heaven, "Ah, YOU, condemned, we need more souls in hell. Next....Didn't DO anything eh? Well, WHO cares.... my choice" NEXT..........
Let me ask this folks: We ARE God's children. Which among YOU would CONDEMN your child BEFORE they were even given a 'chance' to prove themselves? Which among you will OPENLY admit that you TEACH your children to BE LOST? Which among you has SO MUCH love in your heart that you would CONDEMN your child to DEATH for NO REASON other than 'someone has to pay'? If YOU are incapable of doing so, how much LESS our TRUE Father who IS in heaven able to judge us BEFORE we have had a chance to PROVE our willingness to LOVE Him in return? Think about it. We HAVE family for a PURPOSE. Birds, snakes, lions, lizzards, THESE are able to bear children and THEN turn their BACKS on them. But WE are NOT 'animals'. We have been GIVEN souls for a 'purpose'. And that purpose is not to SIMPLY exist for the sake of a 'game'. We are HERE to 'take part' in that which God has offered. That MANY choose to IGNORE this and follow 'something else instead' has NO bearing on the FACT that God does NOT WISH ANY to be LOST.
Blessings,
MEC
From the REASONING offered above: Even those that CHOOSE to follow Satan are DIRECTED FROM GOD TO DO SO? Ludicrous. A LOVING GOD 'directs' the path of one that CHOOSES to FOLLOW Satan. You CAN'T be serious????????????????
We are to SUBMIT to the Will of God. God does NOT MAKE US SUBMIT. That is a CHOICE that we either MAKE or DON'T make.
Yes, God IS 'all powerful'. But does He CHOOSE to exert His will in EVERY aspect of EVERY MAN'S life? Of course not. If this WERE the case, then NONE would be LOST. For God loves EACH and EVERY one of His creations. That He is able to HATE their 'ways' is inevitable. But that He LOVES the 'creation' is WITHOUT doubt. For even when He repented of His creation, there was STILL love in His heart FOR 'creation'. Otherwise it would have been UTTERLY destroyed.
Golly guys, it must be NICE to 'think' that an INDIVIDUAL is SO 'special' that God PICKED them to reveal Himself to THEM while there are OTHERS that will NEVER be 'given' such an opportunity. No wonder we have such a 'denominational MENTALITY'. For it is OUR way or NO WAY. In total opposition to the Word which offers that it's GOD'S way ONLY. And WHO among us is ABLE to utterly discern HIS WAY? Who among us is able to OFFER the JUDGEMENT of God?
So, if I were to accept and BELIEVE that it IS God that directs our EVERY step, then I would be FORCED to BELIEVE that the 'serial killer' is directed by God Himself. Or the pedophile is DOING God's WILL. And so too would I have to ascribe to a belief in SATANISM for the sake of God DIRECTING the steps of those that SO BELIEVE. Not I says me. You won't 'trap ME' into such judgement of mankind. And you won't influence ME to BELIEVE in a God that is simply PLAYING a 'game' with mankind. For that is EXACTLY what would be 'taking place' if there were a God that DIRECTED His children in DISOBEDIENCE. That He may WELL harden the hearts of those that REFUSE Him is without doubt. That Pharoah's heart was 'hardened' for a PURPOSE is without doubt. But it was NOT God's WILL that Pharoah MURDER His children. He ALLOWED it and in this respect MANY are CONFUSED so far as 'God's will' is CONCERNED. But God's will is that NONE shoulc suffer. That they DO is not DUE to HIS FORCING them into the decisions that they MAKE.
And what an irresponsible life we could lead indeed IF were were ABLE to convince ourselves that we have NO CHOICE. That there is NO 'free will' and that ALL that we do is directed by God. REAL EASY at this point to say, "We're ALL sinners but SO WHAT; it's GOD'S Will. But I am SAVED through His grace that that is WHY I'm going to heaven and those others that God CHOOSES to condemn aren't for HIS OWN SAKE. That they had NO CHOICE or FREE WILL to resist the Devil. That God MADE them FOLLOW Satan......................................... NOPE, don't wash folks.
Adam was punished for disobedience. ADAM HAD FREE WILL. Eve was punished for disobedience. Eve HAD FREE WILL. And ALL that have CHOSEN to follow Satan HAVE FREE WILL and that is HOW they will be punished accordingly; as to HOW they chose to EXHIBIT their FREE WILL. Whether it is through SUBMISSION to God's will, (giving UP their OWN will or ALLOWING it to BE CONFORMED to that of the Father), or REBELION AGAINST God's will through our OWN selfish desires, we will be JUDGED ACCORDING to 'free will' and "choice''. For there is NO OTHER way that would make it POSSIBLE for us to BE the 'children of God'. We are NOT puppets of God. That is rediculous 'thinking' that can ONLY lead to an "UTTER LACK OF RESPONSIBILITY". And if ANYTHING, we ARE to BE responsible for our SUBMISSION, whether to God, or OURSELVES that CHOICE is one that WE must MAKE.
And IF there is argument against what I offer here, then I would challenge ANYONE to offer THEIR OWN explanation as to WHY God MAKES them SINNERS every day of their lives. Why has God offered His Son in sacrifice for those that CANNOT 'choose' to FOLLOW Him. And WHY have we NOT been given this understanding in The Word. For we are told to SERVE WILLINGLY. We are told to server in FEAR and TREMBLING. We are TOLD to SUBMIT ourselves to the WILL of God. We are told to live EACH day like it is the LAST. And we are told to pray and fast. Now, how many DO SO without FAIL through the WILL of God? How many are ABLE NOT to SIN through the WiLL of God. And which among us is NOT able to 'turn our backs on God'? Choosing to follow SELF rather than the CREATOR?
That there are SO MANY 'false gods' PROVES 'free will'. That there are SO MANY DIFFERENT interpretations of God's Word SHOWS 'free will' at its WORSE. That there are SO MANY that CHOOSE to FOLLOW 'false gods' offers the ULTIMATE example of 'free will' and that there are those that CHOOSE to follow so is the extent of the degredation that 'free will' is able to PRODUCE.
And WHO could believe in a God that would condemn ANYONE before EVEN being 'given a chance'? Wow, what a mysterious God indeed. One that would MAKE some suffer and save others........... And HOW is it DETERMINED who He SAVES And WHO He has condemned from the BEGINNING? Does He simply 'cast lots' or 'roll the dice'? Eny meny miny mo? Hmmmmm.......sounds kind of 'childish to me'. Not a very condusive way to 'run' a heaven, "Ah, YOU, condemned, we need more souls in hell. Next....Didn't DO anything eh? Well, WHO cares.... my choice" NEXT..........
Let me ask this folks: We ARE God's children. Which among YOU would CONDEMN your child BEFORE they were even given a 'chance' to prove themselves? Which among you will OPENLY admit that you TEACH your children to BE LOST? Which among you has SO MUCH love in your heart that you would CONDEMN your child to DEATH for NO REASON other than 'someone has to pay'? If YOU are incapable of doing so, how much LESS our TRUE Father who IS in heaven able to judge us BEFORE we have had a chance to PROVE our willingness to LOVE Him in return? Think about it. We HAVE family for a PURPOSE. Birds, snakes, lions, lizzards, THESE are able to bear children and THEN turn their BACKS on them. But WE are NOT 'animals'. We have been GIVEN souls for a 'purpose'. And that purpose is not to SIMPLY exist for the sake of a 'game'. We are HERE to 'take part' in that which God has offered. That MANY choose to IGNORE this and follow 'something else instead' has NO bearing on the FACT that God does NOT WISH ANY to be LOST.
Blessings,
MEC
Imagican said:
Isa 45:7
I form light and create darkness, I make weal and create woe, I am the LORD, who do all these things.
There are leaders and followers. And they don't choose to follow Satan. The sons of perdition are the liars, and the murders and the thieves. They love lies. They love death. They love power, and influence, and sin. They love this life and the pleasures of it. Imagine polluted water coming from their mouth. They lead people astray. Jesus called the Pharisees serpents and their father was the devil. These men are the false prophets. The serpent's seed. We know the devil plants his seed among the wheat.
We have the followers of the false prophet, Mohammed. God might pour his wrath into them unmixed. That is without mercy. They act. To us their actions seem heartless, stupid, senseless. But we're talking about spritual things; the soul and the spirit. God knows who they are. Who they are, is at the center of things in our understanding. And who we are, is at the center of things in our understanding. Remember I said something about "I AM WHO I AM"? Who, is at the center of things. It's not the body. We are all human beings. It's the soul.
The haters of God are the ones who believe there is no God. In their minds they are animals (according to Evolution and the classification system) They don't want to hear anything about God. Paul said God gives them over to a base mind.
We know God raises people. In spiritual terms, God has a plan to create a kingdom for his Son. The plan is effected by raising men for his purpose. Men are born into the world. They grow into men according to the flesh (cell division). But according to Jesus, a sparrow can't fall unless God wills it to fall. Even the hairs on your head are numbered and your days are numbered. The spiritual man grows in wisdom and knowledge, according to the spirit (he gathers the words of God), by understanding and seeking. By understanding, knowledge is multiplied.
The majority of Christendom is probably made up of Arminians (Semi-Palagians) and I believe the reason why is that Calvinism (God is sovereign in who are to be His) is repugnant (especially double predestination) to a sense of justice. Mainstream Christianity uses the language of God’s grace, but as one logically dissects the idea of man’s choice, grace turns into requirements and rewards. Grace with conditions is no longer grace. Paul in Romans 11:6 writes, “if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace would no longer be graceâ€Â. Freewill people may argue loudly that merely believing or responding to Jesus is not work, yet is this not semantics? Logic tells us that if salvation depends on anything we must do, then we are saved by works or a work.
Though I would now disagree with Calvinism in regards to the reprobate, I would agree with them that the Bible does speak to God’s sovereignty in all things, especially salvation and election. Scripture seems clear that man has nothing to boast about in regards to the right choices man makes (1 Cor. 4:7, James 1:17 Ephesians 2:8-10, John 6:44 and etc), yet, the freewill camp wants us to accept that what makes one different then another, is their ability to say yes to Jesus.
Blessings, Bubba
Though I would now disagree with Calvinism in regards to the reprobate, I would agree with them that the Bible does speak to God’s sovereignty in all things, especially salvation and election. Scripture seems clear that man has nothing to boast about in regards to the right choices man makes (1 Cor. 4:7, James 1:17 Ephesians 2:8-10, John 6:44 and etc), yet, the freewill camp wants us to accept that what makes one different then another, is their ability to say yes to Jesus.
Blessings, Bubba
Thanks for your response to me Bubba - I understand where you are coming from - and I understand where those who are on the 'other' side are coming from.
The problem, as I see it is, both of you have started with the premise that all men (mankind) will live eternally. This is the reason I believe that so many have a problem reconciling the thought that a just and righteous God could condemn those who have never heard the gospel or perhaps don't have the faculties or mental capacity to grasp it - and therefore there has to be another answer.
The problem, as I see it is, both of you have started with the premise that all men (mankind) will live eternally. This is the reason I believe that so many have a problem reconciling the thought that a just and righteous God could condemn those who have never heard the gospel or perhaps don't have the faculties or mental capacity to grasp it - and therefore there has to be another answer.
francisdesales
Member
Bubba said:
And here is the problem. Trying to understand a paradoxical issue with merely our reason and human logic while forgeting what the Scriptures say about knowing the ways of God. The Scriptures very clearly note that man has free will, has a responsibility to obey God - and at the same time, God is sovereign and foresees what men do, giving grace to men as a gift. We must hold to BOTH ideas, grace and free will, without "dissecting". The Bible doesn't say that nothing is required of men to be saved - nor does the Bible say we can save ourselves without God. BOTH are required; God's grace and man's free will to choose or reject God.
Having a child-like faith requires that men believe both without holding God's ways to the test of our logic.
Regards
Mutzrein,mutzrein said:
I think we have three choices to believe about the afterlife as Christians:
1. Annihilation- Soul Sleep then heavenly bliss for some, extermination for the rest
2. Eternal life and eternal punishment
3. Reconciliation of the whole human race
I believe the latter has as much validity, if not more then the first two.
Grace, Bubba
Francisdesales,
Paul in Romans 11:6 writes, “if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace would no longer be graceâ€Â. I see in Scriptures that we are given commnds, believe in Jesus, pray, be obedient, overcome, persevere and etc, someone may imply that we must have a freewill to be told to do these thing. Yet, man is also said to be spiritually dead, prefers darkness and enslaved to Satan, these verses that contain this info certainly do not imply freewill. I think you would have a hard time Joe finding any verse in the Bible that says we are free in our sin nature to choose without bias and preference. On the other hand, verses like I quoted in the beginning of this are prevalent.
Peace, Bubba
I
Imagican
Guest
The 'free will' involved with the issues that you state IS in that it is OUR CHOICE to ACCEPT or REJECT what has been offered. There ARE those that CHOOSE 'light over darkness'. That it is OFFERED by God through Christ does NOT eliminate that FACT that the 'choice exists'.
We have NO choice HOW we are BORN to begin with. But we CERTAINLY have a 'choice' to REMAIN in the flesh or accept the Spirit into our hearts and be BORN again.
I cannot TELL anyone what contitutes this EXACT nature of choice. For the choices that I have made were NOT able to be discerned as to their EXACT nature. But I KNOW that my 'submission' WAS a 'concious decision'. Even though the Spirit was there offering it's INFLUENCE so that i was ABLE to SEE and FEEL it, it MADE me DO nothing. I could JUST as easily HARDENED my heart and REFUSED to accept what was being offered. And I KNOW this for that is EXACTLY what I DID for YEARS. EVEN after KNOWING the truth, the carnal minded and hearted MIKE was NOT willing to SUBMIT to the WILL of God as offered through The Holy Spirit. OBVIOUSLY, I was NOT ready at the TIME it was FIRST revealed.
Now, you could CERTAINLY make a case that it WAS The Spirit that LED me to where I find myself in the present. But I can say this; Oftentimes I have the URGE or 'desire' to DO that which is 'unseemly'. Sometimes I surcome to this temptation and sometimes I do NOT. But EACH and EVERY time I am AWARE of the DECISION being MINE.
And HOW do you honestly BELIEVE that ANYONE can be JUDGED by ANYTHING but their OWN decisions? That some will surcome to the temptations of the devil and FOLLOW him is their CHOICE. For God has STATED that HE will NEVER allow us to be TEMPTED beyond OUR ability to OVERCOME it.
Don't ATTEMPT to place the BLAME for YOUR condition on GOD. For He has OFFERED the 'choice' for YOU to 'choose' whether you will submit to HIS will or FOLLOW your own. And IF you CHOOSE to follow your own, then it is up to YOU to face the consequences. For IF you follow God then the consequences are IRRELEVANT other than the ability to BUILD your teasures in heaven rather than on this planet in the flesh.
I ask this: Have YOU always given to those in need? Have you ALWAYS offered the LOVE that you have been commanded to offer? Without FAIL? Have you ever 'caught yourself' debating on whether or NOT to give to someone in need? Have you ever 'overcome temptation' through CHOICE?
These PROVE that you DO have the ability to CHOOSE. That it TAKES God to REVEAL the TRUTH does NOT limit our ability to CHOOSE an adherance to IT. To believe otherwise would allow us to BLAME HIM for our punishments blessings or rewards. That is rediculous. For we KNOW that God punishes those that He LOVES. And HOW do you reacon He decides WHO to punish?
BLessings,
MEC
We have NO choice HOW we are BORN to begin with. But we CERTAINLY have a 'choice' to REMAIN in the flesh or accept the Spirit into our hearts and be BORN again.
I cannot TELL anyone what contitutes this EXACT nature of choice. For the choices that I have made were NOT able to be discerned as to their EXACT nature. But I KNOW that my 'submission' WAS a 'concious decision'. Even though the Spirit was there offering it's INFLUENCE so that i was ABLE to SEE and FEEL it, it MADE me DO nothing. I could JUST as easily HARDENED my heart and REFUSED to accept what was being offered. And I KNOW this for that is EXACTLY what I DID for YEARS. EVEN after KNOWING the truth, the carnal minded and hearted MIKE was NOT willing to SUBMIT to the WILL of God as offered through The Holy Spirit. OBVIOUSLY, I was NOT ready at the TIME it was FIRST revealed.
Now, you could CERTAINLY make a case that it WAS The Spirit that LED me to where I find myself in the present. But I can say this; Oftentimes I have the URGE or 'desire' to DO that which is 'unseemly'. Sometimes I surcome to this temptation and sometimes I do NOT. But EACH and EVERY time I am AWARE of the DECISION being MINE.
And HOW do you honestly BELIEVE that ANYONE can be JUDGED by ANYTHING but their OWN decisions? That some will surcome to the temptations of the devil and FOLLOW him is their CHOICE. For God has STATED that HE will NEVER allow us to be TEMPTED beyond OUR ability to OVERCOME it.
Don't ATTEMPT to place the BLAME for YOUR condition on GOD. For He has OFFERED the 'choice' for YOU to 'choose' whether you will submit to HIS will or FOLLOW your own. And IF you CHOOSE to follow your own, then it is up to YOU to face the consequences. For IF you follow God then the consequences are IRRELEVANT other than the ability to BUILD your teasures in heaven rather than on this planet in the flesh.
I ask this: Have YOU always given to those in need? Have you ALWAYS offered the LOVE that you have been commanded to offer? Without FAIL? Have you ever 'caught yourself' debating on whether or NOT to give to someone in need? Have you ever 'overcome temptation' through CHOICE?
These PROVE that you DO have the ability to CHOOSE. That it TAKES God to REVEAL the TRUTH does NOT limit our ability to CHOOSE an adherance to IT. To believe otherwise would allow us to BLAME HIM for our punishments blessings or rewards. That is rediculous. For we KNOW that God punishes those that He LOVES. And HOW do you reacon He decides WHO to punish?
BLessings,
MEC