Free will or no free will?

[Drew]

Scripture seems clear that man has nothing to boast about in regards to the right choices man makes (1 Cor. 4:7, James 1:17 Ephesians 2:8-10, John 6:44 and etc), yet, the freewill camp wants us to accept that what makes one different then another, is their ability to say yes to Jesus.

Whenever Ephesians 2:8-10 is brought up, I feel obliged to assert a position that I think can be, and has been, well supported - the "works" referred to this snippet of text are not "works" generally, but rather the works of Torah. To the extent that this can be sustained, and I am confident it can, one errs to cite Ephesians 2:8-10 as if it were a counterargument against man "boasting in right choices".

The Ephesians 2 text is about the Torah, and is silent on the matter of the justifying power of "good works" in the general case.

If any one wants me to fill out the argument, please let me know.

 

[Drew]

Mainstream Christianity uses the language of God’s grace, but as one logically dissects the idea of man’s choice, grace turns into requirements and rewards... Logic tells us that if salvation depends on anything we must do, then we are saved by works or a work.

Paul, in Romans 2, makes it clear that there is a sense in which "works" do save us. Romans 2:6-13 has essentially been swept under the rug, especically by Protestants, who simply cannot work it into what, I claim, is a fundamentally erroneous conceptualization of the nature of justification. So we get arguments that really cannot work about Romans 2, such as the notion that the church will not be present at that judgement, or that by "doing good" and "obeying the Law", Paul means something other than what he says.

Anyway, I wish to put forward the following response to Bubba's statement above. I see where you are going but I think that the very logic you present, which I take no exception to, at least in a way, shows that there is something deeply wrong in the way this whole issue is framed.

If we take the concept of grace as it is normally construed, then indeed the logic above does work. But, and this is important, it also leads us to a place that should raise red flags. And that place involves the complete dissolution of any conceptually meaningufl distinction between creator and creature. If we take the strict and (I think) overly simplistic conceptualization of grace, we get to a place where, for all practical purpose, our "creaturely autonomy" reduces to zero and we are fundamentally no different than a rock. I will not fill this argument out right now, but merely raise it for consideration.

There really must be something that distinguishes a creature from a created thing. And if all our actions, as creatures, are fundamentally determined by forces external to us (i.e. if we have zero free will), that distinction collapses into nothing. And I cannot see how that can be right.

 

[francisdesales]

Paul in Romans 11:6 writes, “if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace would no longer be graceâ€Â. I see in Scriptures that we are given commnds, believe in Jesus, pray, be obedient, overcome, persevere and etc, someone may imply that we must have a freewill to be told to do these thing. Yet, man is also said to be spiritually dead, prefers darkness and enslaved to Satan, these verses that contain this info certainly do not imply freewill.

Being spritually dead means we ALONE cannot do the things you mention above. Our "sin nature", to speak like Paul, unaided by God, cannot do anything of merit. Jesus also said that we can do nothing good WITHOUT Him. Again and again, my friend, you forget about the concept of synergy.

It is not either God or me.

Like a loving father, God gives us what we need, but we have to reach out to Him and accept the gift. God can and does reach down to US and grant graces to enable us to CHOOSE to obey Him. We cannot obey Him unaided. The Law cannot help us - it only makes us more aware of our responsibility. Only by grace can we be saved.

However, my brother, this does not mean we do NOTHING when doing an action. It is God and I working together. Synergy. God moves my will and desire. By faith, I then seek Him. As Augustine said, I am merely returning the Gift given. Can I boast for my good deeds? No. How could I, since God is moving my will. However, it is not moved in such a manner that I cannot say "no" to God. We CAN grieve the Spirit, disobey God, allow the seeds sown to fall upon poor ground and produce little fruit. There is just too much in Scriptures to ignore that the mystery of the interaction between God's graces and man's free will exists.

Thus, I hold to the Scriptures. ALL of them. I as a Catholic believe that God gives the graces for me to obey. And we maintain that we are free to reject that grace. Free will itself is a great gift, without which there can be no love, no free giving of self...

Regards

 

[Vic C.]

Thus, I hold to the Scriptures. ALL of them. I as a Catholic believe that God gives the graces for me to obey. And we maintain that we are free to reject that grace. Free will itself is a great gift, without which there can be no love, no free giving of self...

Regards

Joe,

One does not need to be Catholic to believe that. ;-) I was told I would not be able to find middle ground between free will and Divine sovereignty, but I think you've expressed it in your last couple of posts.

I could not, in good faith, take free will to it's logical(?) conclusion, which I believe some call Free will Theism, or Pelagism.

Nor could I, in good faith, take Calvinism to it's logical(?) conclusions, which is either fatalism or UR.

Overstating God's sovereignty to the point of making it seem as if He has No choice but to exert His sovereign will is almost as bad as overemphasizing Man's freedom to choose. One makes God out to be an uncaring Creator and the other makes Man out to be the one pulling the Creator's strings. :-?

 

[stovebolts]

Great posts Joe.

Vic,
In the spirit of Faith and Sovereignty, this thread reminds me of what G.K. Chesteron wrote;

Christianity is a superhuman paradox whereby two opposite passions may blaze beside each other.

...but Christianity is centrifugal: it breaks out. For the circle is perfect and infinite in its nature; but it is fixed for ever in its size; it can never be larger or smaller. But the cross, though it has at its heart a collision and a contradiction, can extend its four arms for ever without altering its shape. Because it has a paradox in its centre it can grow without changing. The circle returns upon itself and is bound. The cross opens its arms to the four winds; it is a signpost for free travellers.

Taking faith or Sovereignty to it's logica(?) conclusion, leaves one bound within a perfect circle every time :wink:

 

[Bubba]

Paul in Romans 11:6 writes, “if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace would no longer be graceâ€Â. I see in Scriptures that we are given commnds, believe in Jesus, pray, be obedient, overcome, persevere and etc, someone may imply that we must have a freewill to be told to do these thing. Yet, man is also said to be spiritually dead, prefers darkness and enslaved to Satan, these verses that contain this info certainly do not imply freewill.

Being spritually dead means we ALONE cannot do the things you mention above. Our "sin nature", to speak like Paul, unaided by God, cannot do anything of merit. Jesus also said that we can do nothing good WITHOUT Him. Again and again, my friend, you forget about the concept of synergy.

It is not either God or me.

Like a loving father, God gives us what we need, but we have to reach out to Him and accept the gift. God can and does reach down to US and grant graces to enable us to CHOOSE to obey Him. We cannot obey Him unaided. The Law cannot help us - it only makes us more aware of our responsibility. Only by grace can we be saved.

However, my brother, this does not mean we do NOTHING when doing an action. It is God and I working together. Synergy. God moves my will and desire. By faith, I then seek Him. As Augustine said, I am merely returning the Gift given. Can I boast for my good deeds? No. How could I, since God is moving my will. However, it is not moved in such a manner that I cannot say "no" to God. We CAN grieve the Spirit, disobey God, allow the seeds sown to fall upon poor ground and produce little fruit. There is just too much in Scriptures to ignore that the mystery of the interaction between God's graces and man's free will exists.

Thus, I hold to the Scriptures. ALL of them. I as a Catholic believe that God gives the graces for me to obey. And we maintain that we are free to reject that grace. Free will itself is a great gift, without which there can be no love, no free giving of self...

Regards

Francisdesales,
When a person comes to a knowledge of Jesus and He becomes their Lord and Saviour, it is a monergistic happening. This is where Luther came to battle with the Roman Catholic Church. Synergistic, is when we cooperate with the Holy Spirit in our sanctification, but even this cooperation is one-sided, in that we can’t do anything good and it is the Spirit working out His purposes in our lives. Purposes that were preordained before creation began (Eph.2:10). In essence, if there is no fruit exhibited in ones life; then there is a real good chance that person has a said faith. Does this mean we will never struggle and fail? No we will definitely have times of falling back into the worlds grip, but even these occasions are instrumental for growth (Romans 8:28). Remember also, that a person who truly believes that God loves them and has even gone as far as suffering in their place, how then will they behave and what will be their motivation? I am assured of my salvation, sanctification and glorification even in this realm, and the amazing thing is I am assured of yours and the rest of the human race (1John 2:2) such is the magnitude of our Fathers love.
Peace and rest, Bubba

 

[Biblereader]

Great posts Joe.

Christianity is a superhuman paradox whereby two opposite passions may blaze beside each other.

Taking faith or Sovereignty to it's logica(?) conclusion, leaves one bound within a perfect circle every time :wink:

Bubba just won't give in.

 

[francisdesales]

Joe,

One does not need to be Catholic to believe that. ;-)

Vic,

Yes, my friend, I apologize. Many believe Catholics are "Pelagians". But I have found numerous of my brothers who are non-Catholic who do indeed believe the same as I do on this subject. I think an examination of the current Lutheran and Anglican position would show this narrowing of our distance. I have found a number of people here, such as Drew, who express "my position" better than I can!

I was told I would not be able to find middle ground between free will and Divine sovereignty, but I think you've expressed it in your last couple of posts.

Christianity is full of such paradoxes, such as authority and freedom. We try to hold to both, and over-rationalization leads to heresy in either direction, depending upon the current winds...

I could not, in good faith, take free will to it's logical(?) conclusion, which I believe some call Free will Theism, or Pelagism.

Nor could I, in good faith, take Calvinism to it's logical(?) conclusions, which is either fatalism or UR.

That is a wise position. We can never "know" these mysteries fully. I have read that Semetics were better at holding to "dual" positions better than us moderns. Perhaps it was understood by Paul, and I believe one can sense it in the totality of his writings.

Overstating God's sovereignty to the point of making it seem as if He has No choice but to exert His sovereign will is almost as bad as overemphasizing Man's freedom to choose. One makes God out to be an uncaring Creator and the other makes Man out to be the one pulling the Creator's strings. :-?

Agree. Let's just work out our salvation in fear and trembling, knowing WHO is providing us the grace to move our wills and desires, my brother. It is not for nothing that many Christian theologians (including Luther) did not care for over-analyzing theological positions. I think our Eastern brothers are better at this than us here in the West...

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Great posts Joe.

Thanks, Jeff.

Congrats on your hockey team. Given their roster, I wouldn't be surprised to see them in the running next year, as well. My team, the Sabres, let too many key players get away at once.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Francisdesales,
When a person comes to a knowledge of Jesus and He becomes their Lord and Saviour, it is a monergistic happening. This is where Luther came to battle with the Roman Catholic Church. Synergistic, is when we cooperate with the Holy Spirit in our sanctification, but even this cooperation is one-sided, in that we can’t do anything good and it is the Spirit working out His purposes in our lives.

Again, you are stuck in the "either it is ALL God or ALL man" when the man does an act. NOT SO!!! God moves my desires and my will. But I am free to choose to refuse. And if I respond positively, it is BECAUSE of God moving my will and desire. And thus, I am judged. Not God!!!

I ALONE CAN DO NO GOOD. But with God, I can do "all" things. Even become saved. Remember, we are "new creations" once the Spirit comes.

Purposes that were preordained before creation began (Eph.2:10). In essence, if there is no fruit exhibited in ones life; then there is a real good chance that person has a said faith.

Again, at what point are you going to judge me to determine my "fruitfulness"? Fortunately for me, you didn't know me when I was in my 20-35 year old period. Certainly, you would have seen and condemned my "lack of fruit". God will judge us by the fruits of our entire lives, not just one period of time. In the end, only HE judges me or you. I don't even dare judge myself. I am "confident" that I am saved and as long as I am obeying the commandments, I know that God abides in me and I am "being saved". However, that is not enough to absolutely be certain of my eternal destiny. Thus, I CONTINUE to require God's graces to move my will. Daily....

Yep. I continue to require God's mercy...

Does this mean we will never struggle and fail? No we will definitely have times of falling back into the worlds grip, but even these occasions are instrumental for growth (Romans 8:28). Remember also, that a person who truly believes that God loves them and has even gone as far as suffering in their place, how then will they behave and what will be their motivation? I am assured of my salvation, sanctification and glorification even in this realm, and the amazing thing is I am assured of yours and the rest of the human race (1John 2:2) such is the magnitude of our Fathers love.

God loves all men, even those who condemn themselves. My reading of Scriptures points to God loving even Satan, but Satan refuses God's love. Thus, Satan separates himself from God - and God's wrath is shown by allowing man/devil to "live" without God - which is death. Romans 1:18 to the end...

Regards

 

[Bubba]

True confessions:
To those who think they must cooperate with God and obey His commands, thus securing a place in the hereafter, let us reason together. What has anyone done of a spiritual nature that is not tainted with sin? I will go first, my week has been a tough week, my allergies have me all plugged up, yet I still went to work and was on the grumpy side both there and at home, I favored my easy to get along kids more then my difficult ones, and I didn’t help much with the chores of a large family, in fact I let my wife take up the slack.. I was short at times with those I work with and my family. A few times this week I had unclean thoughts, though I did not act upon them, I did not give 100 percent during the workday, I made several off color remarks with my colleagues to fit in and feel accepted. Even though I did not do any major felonies, if one was to judge my week in the spiritual realm, they would be less then impressed. Even on a good week, when I actually keep my mouth shut, forgive someone, put in a good day at work, spend a great amount of time studying my Bible and in prayer, help someone in need by some sort of charitable act, guess what happens? I come to the realization that I am still full of pride, I still am judgmental, and my motivations for doing good deeds has not been completely pure. However, on the surface, I may appear to have it all together spiritually, but on the scales of an “Infinite Holy Godâ€Â, I have not measured up at all.
Now I do not think I am out of normalcy of the average believer with my behavior, and if that is the case, what possible good comes from a theology that says I must perform with the Holy Spirit in order to secure and keep my salvation? It is a given that in spite of my short comings the Lord is nonetheless working out kingdom purposes in my life, but my best behavior even with the synergistic work of the Spirit is nonetheless found wanting, it must and has to be grace in the whole process. My coming to faith was a prevenient work of the Spirit, my walk is the Spirit working out His purposes, and the reason I do not fall away completely from the faith is that the Father has me in the palm of His hands. It all of grace my friends.
Bubba

 

[MarkT]

The term "free will" involves the extent to which we are under the power of our sin nature. As MarkT notes, this is especially with regard to salvation.

I hope to goodness that we no longer have a sin nature; that God's nature abides in us.

If you mean we still do things to please the flesh. Yep. Occasionally. But the flesh was put to death with Jesus. It's out there like an old worn out garment, an old wine skin.

True Christians don't sin wilfully. We might sin because the flesh is weak. Physical objects obey physical laws. Biologically speaking, the body has needs. Some needs can even be acquired. Addictions, for example.

The ones who say they can reject God ... I don't know. What can I say? What kind of spirit would say that? Even saying they can fall. What! Is that by choice too? Don't they understand the concept of temptation? When they sin, which they admit they do, and then they argue it is their choice, what can I say? Saying they have a desire to sin which choosing implies, what can we say?

The Holy Spirit would not teach or lead anyone to say they can reject God. The devil would.

All I can say to them is, 'Beware lest the light in you be darkness'.

 

[mondar]

Paul, in Romans 2, makes it clear that there is a sense in which "works" do save us. Romans 2:6-13 has essentially been swept under the rug, especically by Protestants, who simply cannot work it into what, I claim, is a fundamentally erroneous conceptualization of the nature of justification. So we get arguments that really cannot work about Romans 2, such as the notion that the church will not be present at that judgement, or that by "doing good" and "obeying the Law", Paul means something other than what he says.

The entire context of Romans 2 is about how all are under sin. The context begins in 1:17 with the great statement that the just shall live by faith. Justification is a matter of faith. The sections begins with the wrath of God being revealed against all unrighteousness. The view that there are some sins which do not bring God's wrath (which Drew's view of Romans 2 must espouse) is clearly false. Who is under this wrath? Who is guilty? The section ends in 3:19 with Pauls stating that...
"all the world may become guilty before God.

This entire context is about the failure and guilt of mankind.

Now in Chapter 2. It begins with the thesis that the man who judges (by the law) is also condemned by the law. This obviously introduces arguments that the Jew is guilty. The question is then is verse 13 introducing the possibility that not all Jews are guilty? Are some Jews actually justified by means of the Mosaic Law? Heavens no, it is very easy to substantiate that the law does not justify. Paul is merely saying that the Jew is not justified by hearing the law. This can so easily be demonstrated by reading the preceeding verse. Verse 12 tells us....
For as many as sinned without the law shall also perish without the law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

It is perfectly clear in the scriptures that works do not bring justification. Romans 4:4 tells us that works brings debt, not grace. If you believe in your own righteousness as contributing to your justification, you do not need Christs. As has been previously mentioned by others, grace and works are in apposition. Romans 11:4 tells us that grace is no more of works.

 

[Imagican]

Mark,

You would choose to deny the very concept that brought mankind into sin to start with. As sin came into the world through one man, so too has it been defeated through one man. But as the first man had to choose to serve temptation, so too must the man choose to accept the defeat that has been offered.

For the Bible plainly offers that Faith without works is dead, so too does it offer that those that simply hear the Word have NO guarantee of anything. And we are to 'believe and follow'.

God's love cannot be negated through 'choice'. But it can certainly be 'recognized' or 'accepted' through 'choice'.

Since 'you' have already 'started it', let me offer that 'I' believe that it would be the Devil that would offer the complacency of OSAS. That it would be through 'his' influence that would lead one to believe that they are 'secure' in a belief that was never offered by Christ or His apostles. For each offered that we are to serve WILLINGLY. And that this service need be offered in 'fear and trembling'. These ARE words offered. Yet I have found nothing contained within scipture that offers one the security that you would insist exists.

That the 'law' be written in the hearts of them that believe by no means offers an assurance that they will be HEEDED or followed. That, my friend, is a 'choice' that each of us must make.

I will offer this again: How many times have you been tempted and simply said to the temptation NO? And how often have you allowed the temptation to become manifest in your life as an actual participation in the sin that YOU commit? And how many times did you 'look back' at the sins that you have committed and said to yourself: "I should have just said NO"?

These instances offer perfect example of what I am offering AS 'free will'. I don't believe that there is a 'Christian' in existence that can NOT relate to what I have offered here. For we each are able to 'just say NO'. For God has offered us the assurance that He will NEVER allow us to be tempted beyond our ability to resist. That it is up to us to RESIST is paramont in an understanding of this very offering.

Can we gain strength through God's Spirit? Absolutely. Can we be intructed through the Spirit in God's wisdom? Absolutely. Can we rest assured in God's love. Most assuredly. But, can we rest in assurance that WE have been granted that which is conditional even when we do NOT live up to the conditions? Hardly. For that is the nature of the carnal minded. To believe in that which is created in it's OWN heart outside of that which has been offered in truth and faith. For faith built on one's OWN understanding is a faith built through the attempt at usurping the authority of God and placing it in one's own hands. That is a 'belief' in oneself rather than what has been offered by God through His Son.

And I can assure you, that NO amount of 'fabricated belief' in anything that is NOT from above is able to assure anyone of anything other than 'faith in oneself'. And there is not a man among us that is 'able' to 'save themselves' except through a willing and concious effort in the developement and growth of a 'personal relationship' with God through His Son. Submission is not something that 'just happens'. It is something that is OPTED and is paramont to a fruitful relationship through Christ. And that we ARE able to choose to live in love once we have an understanding of it is 'truth'. For how many among us still struggle with the simple concept of love to begin with. How many among us still harbor hate in our hearts towards our neighbors? And UNTIL we can come to the truth of what 'true love' IS, we cannot even hope to obtain the rewards offered to those that truly DO love their brothers and sisters.

But, even for those that come to a 'realization' of love. An understanding that exists in their hearts, even these are able to 'turn back' and replace that love with hate and anger. I've seen it over and over again. And for these, to hold malice in their hearts for their brothers and sisters, there is ONLY one direction that they are able to follow: darkness. Not my words but offered in scripture as plain as can be.

The Jews were required to offer sacrifice yearly. We, on the other hand have a more perfect sacrifice that was offered once and for all. But IF one inisists upon crucifying Christ continuously, they have opted for a situation that does not exist. They have chosen to submit to a 'belief system' that has never been offered in truth. And beware of the 'beliefs' that you allow into your heart. For there will be those that choose to follow lies. And for these he will offer strong delusion so that these lies will BE believed.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Bubba]

God’s unfailing love is unconditional, …or almost, depending on the following conditions:

1. God loves you if you are elect (Calvinism) but hates those who are destine to Hell, after all He is Holy and righteous. God loves you as He looks into the future and knew you would have enough sense to say yes to Jesus (Arminianism). He still loves you even if your freewill caused you to go to Hell for an eternity of torture, but He does not love you enough to stop the punishment.

2. That in your lifetime you hear the gospel, or lived a real good life (people of “goodwillâ€Â).

3. That you actually do respond to the Good News, or actually lived a perfect life.

4. God’s love is conditioned on if you trust only on His mercy and His grace. Yet, you are also to trust in the ability to walk in a consistent obedience. For the Calvinist, you are thus proving you are actually elect, or if you are an Arminian (free will), you are assuring your salvation.

5. That you do not die in sin, especially blaspheming the Holy One.

6. That you endure to the end. For the Calvinist, God has committed His love towards you to assure that you will endure to the end, because you are elect. For the free will person, God is all-powerful and loves you, yet because He has ordained freewill, your eternal destiny is left up to you and a synergistic relationship with the Holy Spirit that you can quench.

Is it amazing that the majority of Christendom is not suffering from schizophrenia? Do we have a sure identity as God’s children that He loves, or are we left to flounder in doubt?

Grace, Bubba

 

[mutzrein]

Thanks for your response to me Bubba - I understand where you are coming from - and I understand where those who are on the 'other' side are coming from.

The problem, as I see it is, both of you have started with the premise that all men (mankind) will live eternally. This is the reason I believe that so many have a problem reconciling the thought that a just and righteous God could condemn those who have never heard the gospel or perhaps don't have the faculties or mental capacity to grasp it - and therefore there has to be another answer.

Mutzrein,
I think we have three choices to believe about the afterlife as Christians:
1. Annihilation- Soul Sleep then heavenly bliss for some, extermination for the rest
2. Eternal life and eternal punishment
3. Reconciliation of the whole human race

I believe the latter has as much validity, if not more then the first two.
Grace, Bubba

I believe there is an option that has a tremendous amount of scriptural support and validity. But for some reason Christendom wants to accept something else. Why can't we accept that man is born spiritually void? He is born without eternal life yet we condemn the 'unregenerate' to live eternally in a place of punishment. This is not what it means to 'perish'.

 

[mutzrein]

. . .

You would choose to deny the very concept that brought mankind into sin to start with. As sin came into the world through one man, so too has it been defeated through one man. But as the first man had to choose to serve temptation, so too must the man choose to accept the defeat that has been offered . . .

Blessings,

MEC

If I'm not mistaken, there is a fundamental problem here. Yes sin came into the world through one man. But sin has not been defeated. It was the CONSEQUENCE of sin that has been defeated - and that is DEATH. Death came to all men because all sinned.

But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ. . . For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Notice it is not the obedience or choice of man that makes him righteous but the obedience of ONE man - the man Christ Jesus.

 

[MarkT]

Mark,

You would choose to deny the very concept that brought mankind into sin to start with. As sin came into the world through one man, so too has it been defeated through one man. But as the first man had to choose to serve temptation, so too must the man choose to accept the defeat that has been offered.

For the Bible plainly offers that Faith without works is dead, so too does it offer that those that simply hear the Word have NO guarantee of anything. And we are to 'believe and follow'.

God's love cannot be negated through 'choice'. But it can certainly be 'recognized' or 'accepted' through 'choice'.

Where in the Bible did Jesus say God's love is accepted through choice? You say we must follow Jesus. Ok. Jesus said, 'You are the light'. Did he say we must choose to be the light or we must decide to be the light? True believers keep his words in their heart. You would think, therefore, that believers would know the words.

Obviously the love of God isn't in all men. Most of the world hates him. They don't know his Son, they don't believe in him, and obviously they don't follow the commandment to love God. The word of God doesn't always fall on good soil. If it did, then all men would love God and God's love would be in all men. But it isn't. You can't teach people to love God if they are not drawn to his Son.

It's the condition of the heart and the spirit; that's what the good soil is. It's not something you can choose. It's a priori. That means it's a necessity. It's the condition of the heart prior to hearing. The good news is the seed that falls on the heart. And not just the heart. It falls on the mind as well. And the soul. As the Proverb says, 'Like cold water to a thirsty soul, so is good news from a far country.' Pr.25:25

I'm not saying it's a black and white thing. There are some people with a stony heart who don't have the intelligence or the ability to read. There are some who can read who say they can't. There are some who have a human heart who can read. They believe. It's not to say you can't decide to follow. But to follow isn't exactly easy or given to everyone. It's easy if it is given but it seems to be pretty difficult if it isn't. You have to have good solid roots and your root has to be in yourself. That means you don't follow every preacher who says they are of God. The truth has to be in you and that comes by following the commandment to seek the knowledge of God. So in the light of Christ we read the Scriptures. By doing so we gain a better knowledge of his Son because the knowledge of God comes by knowing the Son. Of course in the light of Christ we make choices (decisions would be a better word for it I think) No one is saying we can't reject the devil. We have the power to say, No.

 

[mondar]

The term "free will" involves the extent to which we are under the power of our sin nature. As MarkT notes, this is especially with regard to salvation.

I hope to goodness that we no longer have a sin nature; that God's nature abides in us.

If you mean we still do things to please the flesh. Yep. Occasionally. But the flesh was put to death with Jesus. It's out there like an old worn out garment, an old wine skin.

True Christians don't sin wilfully. We might sin because the flesh is weak. Physical objects obey physical laws. Biologically speaking, the body has needs. Some needs can even be acquired. Addictions, for example.

The ones who say they can reject God ... I don't know. What can I say? What kind of spirit would say that? Even saying they can fall. What! Is that by choice too? Don't they understand the concept of temptation? When they sin, which they admit they do, and then they argue it is their choice, what can I say? Saying they have a desire to sin which choosing implies, what can we say?

The Holy Spirit would not teach or lead anyone to say they can reject God. The devil would.

All I can say to them is, 'Beware lest the light in you be darkness'.

I no longer remember why I quoted you. It looks like I was defining the term "free will" and had noticed something you said.

As far as the presence of sin nature remaining among the nature of the believer I would answer that yes, I believe we still have a sin nature as believers. Believers and unbelievers, or regenerated and unregenerate, both have a sin nature. The difference between believer and unbeliever is the bondage to sin nature. The text generally discussed thta concerns the presence and power of the sin nature in the Christians life is Romans 6.

Romans 6:6 says that the "old man" died, and now we are "freed from sin" (verse 7). First, I would suggest that the old man is not the same thing as sin nature. I would also suggest that our new freedom is legal. Let me give an illustration.

In antebellum times, the black man was a legal slave. HE served his master because he was in bondage to his master. It is the same with the unbeliever. He serves sin, because he is in bondage to his sin nature. Then Christ comes and sets us free from our sin nature. This does not mean the former sin nature is dead. It is still present and alive. Just as the former slave can return to his master and be a share cropper, we can still go back and serve our former master, our sin nature. That is fleshliness. Therefore our sin nature is not dead, but rather the legal right of the sin nature to be our master is dead. That is the "old man" that dies in Romans 6:6.

This is why Paul says "let not sin reign in your mortal bodies" in verse 12. Since sin nature has no right to rule, we should not return to our former plantation and master and give him service.

We still have a sin nature, but are not bound in slavery to it any longer.

 

[MarkT]

The term "free will" involves the extent to which we are under the power of our sin nature. As MarkT notes, this is especially with regard to salvation.

I hope to goodness that we no longer have a sin nature; that God's nature abides in us.

If you mean we still do things to please the flesh. Yep. Occasionally. But the flesh was put to death with Jesus. It's out there like an old worn out garment, an old wine skin.

True Christians don't sin wilfully. We might sin because the flesh is weak. Physical objects obey physical laws. Biologically speaking, the body has needs. Some needs can even be acquired. Addictions, for example.

The ones who say they can reject God ... I don't know. What can I say? What kind of spirit would say that? Even saying they can fall. What! Is that by choice too? Don't they understand the concept of temptation? When they sin, which they admit they do, and then they argue it is their choice, what can I say? Saying they have a desire to sin which choosing implies, what can we say?

The Holy Spirit would not teach or lead anyone to say they can reject God. The devil would.

All I can say to them is, 'Beware lest the light in you be darkness'.

I no longer remember why I quoted you. It looks like I was defining the term "free will" and had noticed something you said.

As far as the presence of sin nature remaining among the nature of the believer I would answer that yes, I believe we still have a sin nature as believers. Believers and unbelievers, or regenerated and unregenerate, both have a sin nature. The difference between believer and unbeliever is the bondage to sin nature. The text generally discussed thta concerns the presence and power of the sin nature in the Christians life is Romans 6.

Romans 6:6 says that the "old man" died, and now we are "freed from sin" (verse 7). First, I would suggest that the old man is not the same thing as sin nature. I would also suggest that our new freedom is legal. Let me give an illustration.

The proper understanding of this is that our old self was crucified with Christ. So we are freed of sin. 1 John 3:9 - John wrote, 'No one born of God commits sin; for God's nature abides in him, and he can not sin because he is born of God.' So consider yourselves freed in Christ; that is free in the new wineskin which is spirit. Become 'partakers of the divine nature'. 2 Pe 1:4 'Put on the new nature, created after the likeness of God.' Eph. 4:24