Free will or no free will?

[turnorburn]

The argument of free will can be settled in the scriptures, we are creatures of
habit, free will dictates we must have the ability to choose. Everything that
will be has been determined by foreknowledge.That should add a page or three
to this discussion

 

[Bubba]

The argument of free will can be settled in the scriptures, we are creatures of
habit, free will dictates we must have the ability to choose. Everything that
will be has been determined by foreknowledge.That should add a page or three
to this discussion

turnorburn,
If God simply looked into the future and knew who would say yes and who would say no has you seem to imply, what would He really see? The way I see Scripture to say is that He would see spiritually dead people (Eph. 2:1-5), that need to be made alive to that which is spiritually true, i.e. believing that Jesus is the Saviour of all men.
Grace, Bubba

 

[MarkT]

The quotes used by the Council do not close the door on the other side of the coin, that man has free will and that WITH God, man CAN choose good. Scriptures are full of such indications.

Well, no. What is man? Nothing more than grass and freewill is vanity. Can you by your will extend your life? Even the hairs on your head are numbered. Jesus said, 'and do not presume to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father'; for I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children to Abraham.' Mt 3:9 What is man, a soul, a mind, a body of flesh and blood, that makes him think he is so special? The Jews figured they were descendants of Abraham. Big deal. If God can raise up children from stones then what makes man so special? It's the pride of life. Whereas stones have no life in them, they don't count. But Jesus said God is able to raise children to Abraham, to the promise of eternal life, from stones.

And yet as I recall, you said only the Pope receives the Holy Spirit. How do you know? The Pope said so. Still what do you mean by 'with God'. If God's Spirit isn't in you, then God can not be with you. Unless you're talking about the Pope, in which case you are making him God. Indeed you call him the Holy Father. What makes him Holy francis? Is he apart from all the created things? Or is he a man? Before the people didn't have the Bible. They had to believe what the Pope told them to believe. Now you have no excuse. Yet you say we must not rely on what we can read. Only the church you belong to can tell us the truth. You say you can't read, even though you can read. You say no one can read, only the Pope, I guess. So you do not enter and you do not let others enter. But I am justified francis. I enter. I go in and out and I find pasture on a daily basis.

A closer reading of the canons will be my evidence. For example,

CANON 3. If anyone says that the grace of God can be conferred as a result of human prayer, but that it is not grace itself which makes us pray to God, he contradicts the prophet Isaiah, or the Apostle who says the same thing, "I have been found by those who did not seek me; I have shown myself to those who did not ask for me" (Rom 10:20, quoting Isa. 65:1).

The words of eternal life are not in your canons. Grace doesn't make us pray. It is the Spirit who makes us pray. And we pray in secret. Why do you pray in public?

I see synergy here. Man prays, but it is God's grace itself that makes us pray. Man can refuse to pray or utilize God's gift of grace to follow the will moved by God to pray.

God's gift of grace? Your words don't make sense. It is by the grace of God that we are saved. God's grace abounds in us towards our brethren. In that we are known, because we love our brethren. Is this a teaching of your church; that man can refuse God? Might as well teach them to jump off a cliff, because man can do that, as to suggest that man can refuse God. Isn't it the spirit in a man that makes him understand? And where does his spirit come from? So where does your understanding come from? How can you refuse the will moved by God, that is, your own will? I'm not saying we're perfect, and we can't be tempted but God delivers us from evil. Why pray, 'deliver us from evil' if you don't believe God will do it? If you don't believe God directs our steps, then you don't believe Christ, who is our wisdom.

CANON 4. If anyone maintains that God awaits our will to be cleansed from sin, but does not confess that even our will to be cleansed comes to us through the infusion and working of the Holy Spirit, he resists the Holy Spirit himself who says through Solomon, "The will is prepared by the Lord" (Prov. 8:35, LXX), and the salutary word of the Apostle, "For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure" (Phil. 2:13).

I see synergy here. God AWAITS our will - but that this requires an infusion of the Spirit...

Again, Catholic teaching.

Sure is. God awaits our will? And Jesus said, 'no one puts new wine in an old wineskin'. So the Spirit can not dwell in the body of flesh and blood. So the Spirit can not move your will unless you are born of the Spirit, and you can not enter the kingdom unless you are born of the Spirit. It is the spirit in a man who hears the voice who rejoices. When it comes to believing, it's by hearing and with faith. There's no choosing involved. Either you receive the word of the kingdom with joy or you don't.

Or how about the conclusion?

According to the catholic faith we also believe that after grace has been received through baptism, all baptized persons have the ability and responsibility, if they desire to labor faithfully, to perform with the aid and cooperation of Christ what is of essential importance in regard to the salvation of their soul. We not only do not believe that any are foreordained to evil by the power of God, but even state with utter abhorrence that if there are those who want to believe so evil a thing, they are anathema.

The ones who are teaching you that none are foreordained to evil are the ones who are foreordained to evil. 'These are waterless springs and mists driven by a storm; for them the nether gloom of darkness has been reserved.' 2 Peter 2:17 Of course they would not agree. LOL

 

[OnFireForChrist]

Without free will, we are not responsible for our actions, since we have no say in them. Furthermore, then we have to answer the question as to why a just God would will for some eternal unhappiness and then for others eternal happiness, when the Bible says that God is not partial, and that He is good.

My opinion on the matter is that since we are made in God's image, and God has free will, man also has been given free will. Because he has free will, he can choose to cooperate with God, or he can choose to rebel against Him. God creates only good things, because He is goodness Himself. Therefore, it is not far-fetched to ask us to do good, because we are naturally and intrinsically good and capable of doing good, in cooperation with God. Because man is able to do good, it is perverted that he should choose to do evil, and since evil did not originate from God, man is to blame for evil, and therefore is answerable to justice for breaking the Law.

If man did not have a say in the matter, however, there would be no difference in his doing good or evil, as it is not his fault and the blame does not lay with him, as he has no will of his own to act with; the blame is with the will of the one who is controlling man. Since God is good, it is inconceivable to blame God for our evil, as evil has no part in Him, and He wills only good and does only good. The perversion of good has come from us, wherein we sin, and that is why it is just for us to be punished for sin, because we freely have chosen to do evil.

 

[OnFireForChrist]

Sirach 15:14-20 "When God, in the beginning, created man, he made him subject to his own free choice. There are set before you fire and water; to whichever you choose, stretch forth your hand. Before man are life and death, whichever he chooses shall be given him. Immense is the wisdom of the LORD; he is mighty in power, and all-seeing. The eyes of God see all he has made; he understands man's every deed. No man does he command to sin, to none does he give strength for lies. "

1 Pet 1:16-18 "but as he who called you is holy, be holy yourselves in all your conduct; since it is written, "You shall be holy, for I am holy." And if you invoke as Father him who judges each one impartially according to his deeds, conduct yourselves with fear throughout the time of your exile."

Romans 9:14 "What shall we say then? Is there injustice with God? God forbid."

Galatians 2:17 "But if while we seek to be justified in Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners; is Christ then the minister of sin? God forbid."

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Without free will, we are not responsible for our actions, since we have no say in them.....

You're catchin' on, kiddo. Thats why Calvin taught that people are predestined for heaven or hell before they're even born - which makes you wonder why one would even bother to be a good Christian. Its a damnable doctrine which makes God the author of evil

 

[OnFireForChrist]

Without free will, we are not responsible for our actions, since we have no say in them.....

You're catchin' on, kiddo. Thats why Calvin taught that people are predestined for heaven or hell before they're even born - which makes you wonder why one would even bother to be a good Christian. Its a damnable doctrine which makes God the author of evil

I would have to agree, for if we don't have any say in our actions, God alone is culpable for our evils, which is an absurd notion if we are going to say that God is good. He Himself said He hates when He loses the souls of sinners; it's clearly not His will that we should transgress the Law. Yet, this does not diminish the glory of God in any way; we have to answer to His justice if we will not accept Him, and there is no evil in that because we are the evil ones who deserve the punishment.

 

[mondar]

Without free will, we are not responsible for our actions, since we have no say in them.

OnFireForChrist, feel free to misrepresent the other side if that helps your tradition.
Informed Calvinists do not say "we have no say in them." That is totally a straw man. Sure, you might find some uninformed Calvinist that says something like that on one of these boards, but try to find such a statement among the professional scholars.

Calvinists believe that man has a choice, but the choice is bound to our natures. Now I dont think any body disagrees with this statement. Our choice is bound to our nature. If I choose to grow wings and fly, I cannot because I am bound by my nature. If I choose to walk a mile, thats not a problem because that is within the ability of my nature. The range of human choices is limited by our nature as finite beings.

Now when it comes to spiritual deeds, again our choices are bound by our natures. This raises the question of what is our spiritual natures. Are we fairly sinful with that small inner light? Are we a blank slate? Are we fairly righteous as creatures? Are we totally depraved (not as sinful as we could be but sin permeates our entire nature and being).

Furthermore, then we have to answer the question as to why a just God would will for some eternal unhappiness and then for others eternal happiness, when the Bible says that God is not partial, and that He is good.

My opinion on the matter is that since we are made in God's image, and God has free will, man also has been given free will.

Where does the bible say that God has free will? God also has a nature and is bound by his nature. Is God able to sin?

Because he has free will, he can choose to cooperate with God, or he can choose to rebel against Him. God creates only good things, because He is goodness Himself.
Therefore, it is not far-fetched to ask us to do good, because we are naturally and intrinsically good and capable of doing good, in cooperation with God. Because man is able to do good, it is perverted that he should choose to do evil, and since evil did not originate from God, man is to blame for evil, and therefore is answerable to justice for breaking the Law.

Maybe we should back up here. Do you deny the truth of Original Sin? We are all in Adam as our federal head? Do you disagree with the canons of the council of Chalcedon and Orange? How do you read texts like Romans 5 and Romans 3? You obviously think man is a virtous creature by nature. This seems to go far beyond Pelagianism. Do you actually believe these things?

If man did not have a say in the matter, however, there would be no difference in his doing good or evil, as it is not his fault and the blame does not lay with him, as he has no will of his own to act with; the blame is with the will of the one who is controlling man. Since God is good, it is inconceivable to blame God for our evil, as evil has no part in Him, and He wills only good and does only good. The perversion of good has come from us, wherein we sin, and that is why it is just for us to be punished for sin, because we freely have chosen to do evil.

Again, no knowledgeable Calvinist or Christian would deny man has a will. This is a straw man. Sure, there might be some confused person somewhere on this board that will affirm that man has no will, but why pick the low hanging fruit. Can you show me a professional scholar that deny's man has a will? No scholar will say that. No Calvinist scholar will think that. Please show me one scholar who says that?

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Without free will, we are not responsible for our actions, since we have no say in them.

OnFireForChrist, feel free to misrepresent the other side if that helps your tradition.....

I don't think he misrepresented anything - I think he was right on the money.

And our tradition, which is Apostolic Tradition, doesn't need any help, for it comes from the Apostles

 

[mondar]

Without free will, we are not responsible for our actions, since we have no say in them.

OnFireForChrist, feel free to misrepresent the other side if that helps your tradition.....

I don't think he misrepresented anything - I think he was right on the money.

And our tradition, which is Apostolic Tradition, doesn't need any help, for it comes from the Apostles

The implication of his words are that some major theological group does not believe in human will. Can you provide evidence for these claims? Please provide quotes from some leaders of a theological group (not some individual writer on some board) that demonstrate that a denomination or theological group believes that man is not responsible for his actions. Maybe you do not need evidence to think he is on the money?

You are claiming that your so call Apostolic Tradition that can be traced from the apostles. Please show me the bodily assumption of Mary among the early church fathers (before 4th century) or scriptures? Evidence for your claims please?

 

[Catholic Crusader]

The implication of his words are that some major theological group does not believe in human will. Can you provide evidence for these claims? Please provide quotes from some leaders of a theological group (not some individual writer on some board) that demonstrate that a denomination or theological group believes that man is not responsible for his actions. Maybe you do not need evidence to think he is on the money?

Allow me to quote an excerpt from an encylopedia:

The counterpart of the predestination of the good is the reprobation of the wicked, or the eternal decree of God to cast all men into hell of whom He foresaw that they would die in the state of sin as his enemies. This plan of Divine reprobation may be conceived either as absolute and unconditional or as hypothetical and conditional, according as we consider it as dependent on, or independent of, the infallible foreknowledge of sin, the real reason of reprobation. If we understand eternal condemnation to be an absolute unconditional decree of God, its theological possibility is affirmed or denied according as the question whether it involves a positive, or only a negative, reprobation is answered in the affirmative or in the negative. The conceptual difference between the two kinds of reprobation lies in this, that negative reprobation merely implies the absolute will not to grant the bliss of heaven while positive reprobation means the absolute will to condemn to hell. In other words, those who are reprobated merely negatively are numbered among the non-predestined from all eternity; those who are reprobated positively are directly predestined to hell from all eternity and have been created for this very purpose. It was Calvin who elaborated the repulsive doctrine that an absolute Divine decree from all eternity positively predestined part of mankind to hell and, in order to obtain this end effectually, also to sin. The Catholic advocates of an unconditional reprobation evade the charge of heresy only by imposing a twofold restriction on their hypothesis: (a) that the punishment of hell can, in time, be inflicted only on account of sin, and from all eternity can be decreed only on account of foreseen malice, while sin itself is not to be regarded as the sheer effect of the absolute Divine will, but only as the result of God's permission; (b) that the eternal plan of God can never intend a positive reprobation to hell, but only a negative reprobation, that is to say, an exclusion from heaven. These restrictions are evidently demanded by the formulation of the concept itself, since the attributes of Divine sanctity and justice must be kept inviolate (see GOD). Consequently, if we consider that God's sanctity will never allow Him to will sin positively even though He foresees it in His permissive decree with infallible certainty, and that His justice can foreordain, and in time actually inflict, hell as a punishment only by reason of the sin foreseen, we understand the definition of eternal reprobation given by Peter Lombard (I. Sent., dist. 40): "Est præscientia iniquitatis quorundam et præparatio damnationis eorundem" (it is the foreknowledge of the wickedness of some men and the foreordaining of their damnation). Cf. Scheeben, "Mysterien des Christentums" (2nd ed., Freiburg, 1898), 98â€â€103.

source: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12378a.htm

As for this:

.....You are claiming that your so call Apostolic Tradition that can be traced from the apostles. Please show me the bodily assumption of Mary among the early church fathers (before 4th century) or scriptures? Evidence for your claims please?

This is off topic. The Assumption of Mary has nothing to do with "Free Will." To try and divert attention from this Calivinist heresy by throwing Marian doctrines into the mix is most disingenuous.

.

 

[mondar]

The implication of his words are that some major theological group does not believe in human will. Can you provide evidence for these claims? Please provide quotes from some leaders of a theological group (not some individual writer on some board) that demonstrate that a denomination or theological group believes that man is not responsible for his actions. Maybe you do not need evidence to think he is on the money?

Allow me to quote an excerpt from an encylopedia:

... It was Calvin who elaborated the repulsive doctrine that an absolute Divine decree from all eternity positively predestined part of mankind to hell Cf. Scheeben, "Mysterien des Christentums" (2nd ed., Freiburg, 1898), 98â€â€103.[/i]

source: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12378a.htm

So how does your quote demonstrate that "some major group does not believe in human will." You seem to be pretty far from understanding the issues. What you quoted from the encyclopedia does not address the issue at all. I think you just looked up Calvinism in an online encyclopedia, then threw whatever you found on the screen. I wonder if you read your own article very closely. You then underlined something you think is somewhere in the ball park near the issue.

I feel disappointed at such behavior. It is not dealing with me in an honest way. You seem to view me as some unclean reprobate that is not worth an honest answer. I really feel you think you dont even need to understand what Calvinists are saying. Do you know the difference between the terms "human will" and "free will?"

As for this:

.....You are claiming that your so call Apostolic Tradition that can be traced from the apostles. Please show me the bodily assumption of Mary among the early church fathers (before 4th century) or scriptures? Evidence for your claims please?

This is off topic. The Assumption of Mary has nothing to do with "Free Will." To try and divert attention from this Calivinist heresy by throwing Marian doctrines into the mix is most disingenuous. .

I was not diverting anything. You are the one that brought a novel issue into the thread. You are the one that first appealed to your tradition as the end all of any discussion of free will because it goes back to apostolic tradition. I asked for evidence that your tradition does as you claim. Now it is true that I ask for evidence from your tradition on a different issue. But if your tradition has any authority, should it not be authoritative on all issues. Why should I trust your tradition on free will if it cannot answer other questions? The issue here is that I really dont think your claims of an authoratative tradition is worth much. It is simply not infallible.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

.... You are the one that brought a novel issue into the thread. You are the one that first appealed to your tradition....

Another false statement. It was YOU who first brought up tradition here, when you said to OnFireForChrist:

...OnFireForChrist, feel free to misrepresent the other side if that helps your tradition..

..to which I replied:

..our tradition, which is Apostolic Tradition, doesn't need any help

I'm getting use to false statements around here, but at least you should wait until a few pages go by before you make such an obvious misrepresentation.

And Calvin's teachings on predestination do demonstrate that "some major group does not believe in human will", namely, Calvinists. If someone is predestined for hell, then they cannot excersise a free-will choice to accept Jesus as their savior. I think that's pretty obvious - obvious enough that everyone else can see it, except for the Calvinists

 

[mondar]

.... You are the one that brought a novel issue into the thread. You are the one that first appealed to your tradition....

Another false statement. It was YOU who first brought up tradition here, when you said to OnFireForChrist:

...OnFireForChrist, feel free to misrepresent the other side if that helps your tradition..

..to which I replied:
[quote:6267d]..our tradition, which is Apostolic Tradition, doesn't need any help

I'm getting use to false statements around here, but at least you should wait until a few pages go by before you make such an obvious misrepresentation.[/quote:6267d]

Ahh, so my comment to OnFireForChrist was an attempt to side track the issue. Again, a mammoth assumption on your part. At that point I was not even aware that OFFC was Catholic. In fact, I am still not convinced he is necessarily Catholic. When I was speaking of his tradition, at that point, I was speaking of Pelagianism.

If you read down the same page you quoted I said...

This seems to go far beyond Pelagianism. Do you actually believe these things?

So you make this leap and assume that I am speaking of Roman Catholicism and then begin making moral accusations. Amazing, how fast I am being accused of false statements and misrepresentations. It seems immediate moral accusations are the essence of your defense. Is this an indication you cannot defend your beliefs on a rational basis?

And Calvin's teachings on predestination do demonstrate that "some major group does not believe in human will", namely, Calvinists. If someone is predestined for hell, then they cannot excersise a free-will choice to accept Jesus as their savior. I think that's pretty obvious - obvious enough that everyone else can see it, except for the Calvinists

Sigh, What is obvious is that you still have not even begun to understand the Calvinist denial of free will. I can see what you are obviously doing. When I suggest Calvinist believe in Human will, but deny free will... you look up the term "Calvinist" in some online encyclopedia and point to the term predestination, and then say "see, I am right Calvinists deny Human will. That is a mammoth and incorrect assumption that the term predestination=human will. Second, are you quoting Calvinists as denying "Human will?" No!

If I were to read what some protestants say about Catholics, would you accept that as authoritative about what Catholics believe? Most likely not. Yet you expect me to take a statement like the one made that was hostile to Calvinists and consider even that statement authoritative. Furthermore, you confuse human will and free will and still fail to understand the difference.

I notice in your statement above how you substitute the term "free will" in your statement for the term "Human will" in my statement. That substitution shows how clueless you are about what is being said. In refusing to see a difference, you completely fail to understand what Calvinists are even saying. Amazing, you dont think you have to know what your talking about to refute something? Until you understand what Calvinist like me are saying about human will and free will, you will never understand what Calvinist are saying about predestination.

In fact, your agreement with the person I originally responded to demonstrates that you did not even recognize his pelagianism.

OFFC said....

Therefore, it is not far-fetched to ask us to do good, because we are naturally and intrinsically good and capable of doing good, in cooperation with God.

"We are naturally and intrinsically good?" Thats not a pelagian statement? Hehe, yeah right. So we have some divine spark and so our original sin is not complete? Not!

Romans 5:19 is clear... "for as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners." We all became sinful because of Adams sin. Its called Original sin.

 

[francisdesales]

Where does the bible say that God has free will? God also has a nature and is bound by his nature. Is God able to sin?

Ugghh... This is unheard of. :o

To be honest, I have never heard of the concept that God has no free will, either in the bible or in the writings of the Father. It is implied throughout the Scriptures. Never does the bible even imply that God cannot freely do what He desires. That is really the crux of free will, the ability to do what one DESIRES - and who would think that God DESIRES to sin???

God is sovereign, absolutely, implies that God DOES have free will. I think your definition of "free will" needs some reconsideration. Free will is not doing all things but doing what is best for one's own good, best for one's nature within their limitations. Because man's nature is wounded, he often doesn't KNOW what is best for him - or simply chooses not to do it.

The problem here is the twisting of Augustine, especially on free will, by the Reformers. Augustine did manage to maintain the antithesis found in Scriptures between grace and free will. The Reformers ignore one side to prop up the other, forgeting that the former GIVES the later...

St. Augustine distinguishes between free will and freedom, which you are not. To him, "a will would not be a will unless it was free, that is, in our power". He maintains the balance that the Church in its wisdom maintained between the two antithesis - grace and free will - with such statements as this...

Let us take care not to defend grace in such a way that we would seem to take away free choice. nor again can we insist so strongly on free choice that we could be judged in our proud impiety, ungrateful for the grace of God Forgiveness and the Just Deserts of Sins, and the Baptism of Infants, 412 AD

Without free will there can be neither good or bad living The Spirit and the Letter

God wills all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth; but not in such a way that He would take away their free choice; for the good or evil use of which it is most just that they be judged

Grace does not make free will void, but establishes it...

Certainly, it is likewise God who works in man the will to believe, and in all things anticipates us with His mercy. But to consent to God's summons or to dissentfrom it, as I said before, belongs to our own will.

Augustine consistently maintains that whenever Scriptures require men to do or not to do something, free will is sufficiently demonstrated "For where one is said to 'not will this' and 'not will that' and where an act of the will is required to do or not do something in respect to God's commandments, free will is sufficiently demonstrated

Augustine points out the aid of grace to free will in Mat 26:41 and Luke 22:32 (PL 44, 4, 9), but especially in 1 Cor 15:10, where he writes "it is not the grace of God alone, nor Paul alone, but the grace of God along with him" (PL 44, 5, 12) Synergy...

He carefully preserves the dialectic between grace and free will, one that the Reformers do not. The peak of this is the explanation that is totally at odds with Christian teachings - that God has no free will... A very strange thought from a Protestant who claims to place the Sovereign WILL of God above all things.

Regards

 

[Guest]

68 pages later and you all haven't figured this out yet?!?!?

:crazyeyes:

 

[Catholic Crusader]

68 pages later and you all haven't figured this out yet?!?!?

:crazyeyes:

I have. God created man with the dignity of free will, so that he may freely choose to accept or reject his Creator

 

[mondar]

Where does the bible say that God has free will? God also has a nature and is bound by his nature. Is God able to sin?

Ugghh... This is unheard of. :o

To be honest, I have never heard of the concept that God has no free will, either in the bible or in the writings of the Father. It is implied throughout the Scriptures. Never does the bible even imply that God cannot freely do what He desires. That is really the crux of free will, the ability to do what one DESIRES - and who would think that God DESIRES to sin???

God is sovereign, absolutely, implies that God DOES have free will.

I know you did not copy that definition of free will from an authoritative source. The definition is true as far as it goes, but I would suggest that that your definition is incomplete. At least its an attempt to define free will. Thats something that should have been done long ago.

Let me use your incomplete definition for a while.
So if I desire to fly like superman, but dont have the

ability

to do that which I desire... I do not have free will. That part is true enough. But there is more. The reason I do not have the ability to fly like superman is that it is against my nature. I might have the desire to fly like superman, but I will never fly like superman because it is against my nature.

Certainly God is sovereign. Of course Calvinists take a high view of Gods sovereignty. God has the ability to sin, but he cannot have the desire to sin because it is not his nature to sin. Does God's nature restrict him from anything? Yes! Sin.

On the other hand, does my former nature as an unbeliever restrict me from believing? Romans 6 says my former nature (6:6-the old man) is to be a slave of my sin nature (6:17). The term slave or servant in romans is the greek term doulos (bond slave). I was in total bondage to my sin nature. Ephesians says that I was dead in sin (2:1) and by nature a child of wrath (2:3). It was my nature to hate God and be angry with God.

We desire those things that are within our nature.

I notice in Ephesians 2:4-5 that God did not change our nature after we believe. He changed our nature while we were dead in sin and trespasses. So then we believe not by the great power of our own self righteousness natures, but only because God, who is rich in mercy, changed our natures to believe.

The natural man cannot believe, it is against his nature. 1 Cor 2:14 syas that "the natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God." That is because we are dead in sin. Our natures are dead. We are slaves of sin.

As I cannot fly like superman, because it is not within my nature... the natural man cannot believe because it is not within his nature. Will God judge the natural man even though unbelief is his nature? Certainly! The natural man choose and desired his rebellion because he was in Adam. All died in Adam. The entire human race was in Adam when he freely chose to sin. Adam was not spiritually dead when he sinned. Adam had no sin nature. Adam sinned with free will. We sin and rebel against God because we are in Adam and are in bondage or slavery to our sin natures before salvation.

I have to go now. I will again be away for a while and who knows what my interest will be when I return. I very much doubt if many will even understand the scriptures commented on above. I also doubt if many will understand how to even define the term "free will" properly. Even Calvinists misuse the term. John McArther blurred the term when he said "I have the free will to choose any path of sin I desire." OF course as a Calvinist, he knows the natural man will desire a path of sin and rebellion because it is his nature. McArther just wanted to use the term "free will" in a positive way.

We are by nature, sinners and rebels because we were all in Adam. We had no freedom to choose our nature. You might continue to disagree and think that we are not in so much bondage to our sin nature, or that we are not so completely a part of Adams sin. You might still think that we have some spark of divine righteousness left in us in our natural state. You might continue to think we can use this divine spark of our own holiness and cooperate with Gods holiness and we can save ourselves with a little help from God. Not me. Salvation is all of Gods grace. It is all for his glory, not ours.

Be back in a while.

 

[Guest]

68 pages later and you all haven't figured this out yet?!?!?

:crazyeyes:

I have. God created man with the dignity of free will, so that he may freely choose to accept or reject his Creator

can you will yourself to fly? no - you do not have wings... the will has physical, mental, and spiritual limitations, it is not ""free"".

but i grant you that we do have a will.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

...can you will yourself to fly? no - you do not have wings.......

"Will" and "Ability" are two different things. I do not have the ability to fly. I do, however, have the ability to make choices in my life. Calvinist predestiantion doctrine denies my ablity to choose.

(BTW: If I have the "Will" to fly, I can build an airplane and fly. Where there's a will, there's a way.)