Free will or no free will?

[beloved57]

Correct. But what you said is not true: Period.

You dont know the truth..you have the slighest ideal of what salvation by grace is, i can tell by your posts..

 

[beloved57]

Does it preclude the son from repenting and returning to the father, to become "alive" again

could lazaruz raise himself from the dead ?

 

[Catholic Crusader]

The Council of Trent stated, "If anyone says that it is not in the power of man to make his ways evil, but that God produces the evil as well as the good works, not only by permission, but also properly and of himself, so that the betrayal of Judas is no less his own proper work than the vocation of Paul, let him be anathema. . . . If anyone shall say that the grace of justification is attained by those only who are predestined unto life, but that all others, who are called, are called indeed, but do not receive grace, as if they are by divine power predestined to evil, let him be anathema."[Decree on Justification, canons 6 and 17].

That sums it up pretty nicely. The Bible says Christ died for all men. John 4:42 describes Christ as "the Savior of the world," and 1 John 2:2 says that Christ "is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world." 1 Timothy 4:10 describes God as "the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe." These verses require the Christian to affirm that Christ died to atone for all men. St. Thomas Aquinas said, "Christ's passion was not only a sufficient but a superabundant atonement for the sins of the human race; according to 1 John 2:2, 'He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.'" [Summa 3:48:2].

You dont know the truth..you have the slighest ideal of what salvation by grace is, i can tell by your posts..

Oh, hi there God. I've always wanted to meet the person who knows my thoughts. Can you tell me who's gonna win the next Superbowl?

 

[francisdesales]

Does it preclude the son from repenting and returning to the father, to become "alive" again

could lazaruz raise himself from the dead ?

Let's see what Jesus Himself says...

And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill [it]; and let us eat, and be merry: For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry. Luke 15:23-24

It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found. Luke 15:32

Clearly, Jesus doesn't consider the son unable to repent and beg the father for forgiveness, as if he was "literally" dead. Nowhere do we get the idea that the father went out to bring the son home, because he was "dead" and unable to come home. Jesus clearly doesn't give us the idea that man in general is TOTALLY unable to return to God, like a dead man to walk.

The parable speaks of relationships broken (dead) and remade (living), the story of Lazarus speaks of the body, the raising of the flesh. Clearly, You are comparing apples and oranges, and Ephesians 2 is just another example of not comprehending the power of the Word of God and taking it out of context to support some idea that man is totally dead and has absolutely no good within him.

Regards

 

[mondar]

...But since God's grace does not overwhelm nature,...

God grace does exactly that. I would not use the word "overwhelm" but Gods grace changes our nature. francisdesales, I dont understand how you can think that denying Gods grace changes our natures is even a disputable thing. Let me point to Ephesians 2.

2 wherein ye once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the powers of the air, of the spirit that now worketh in the sons of disobedience;
3 among whom we also all once lived in the lust of our flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest:

In the past, we were children of wrath by nature. I think the scripture is clear that our nature is a new nature. We did not change our own nature. Can a leapord change its spots (OT quote)? Verse 5 tells us where the new nature came from.

5 even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace have ye been saved),

The perspicuity of the text seems obvious to me. We were dead, God, by his grace made us alive. We were children of wrath by nature, God changed our nature and we believed.

it seems pretty evident that man is not dead, otherwise, a free will act to do good would BE A TOTAL OVERWHELMING OF MAN'S "NATURE"... Think about it. There must be something within us that God moves that IS good, otherwise, God's grace is indeed overwhelming nature.

Am I misunderstanding you that "man is not dead?" Maybe you are referring to physically dead? I have no idea what you could possibly be saying here. It seems to me to directly contradict statements of scripture.
1 And you did he make alive, when ye were dead through your trespasses and sins,
The statement that we were dead in Ephesians 2:1 is very direct in saying exactly the opposite of what you said. I think it is obvious that you must at least admit that in some sence of the word we were dead.

Furthermore, when you say that "There must be something within us that God moves that IS good." Is that not exactly what the word "dead" is saying? I dont see that the "dead" concept leaves room for any good in us. Man is not merely sick, he is dead! You seem to be denying that man is dead and that he is merely sick with sin. The text is clear that we are not sick with sin, we are dead in sin and trespasses.

Of course Romans 5:19 is also clear that we were all made sinners because Adam was the federal head of the human race.
19 For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the one shall the many be made righteous.
The First "one man" in this verse is Adam. That can be seen if you read the context. We were made sinners and sinful not because we did not quite have enough self-righteousness to make it to God. We became sinners in Adams fall. From the time of Adams sin, the entire Human race was dead in sin.

Verse 19 is saying we are sinners because of Adams sin. That is a very hard concept but it is clear. We are not sinners because we sinned. We are sin because we became sinners when we were in Adam at his sin. So then we sin because we are sinners. We do not become sinners because we sin. This might be a repulsive concept, but please read the text of verse 19. What else could it be saying.

I see the great gulf between us.... In your concept Gods Grace helps us save ourselves. God then assists us in salvation. I dont think the scriptures teach that Grace is merely and only neccessary. Gods grace is completely sufficient for salvation. The difference is in your concept grace is is neccessary for assistance, in my concept Grace does it all. Even if you say % our works and effort, I will disagree. Salvation is 100% Gods grace.

Maybe if I have time I will write more later, or more likely you will respond and I will just move on past the rest of what you are saying. I dont seem to keep up with everything. : )

Sola gratia,

Mondar

 

[Catholic Crusader]

....I dont see that the "dead" concept leaves room for any good in us.....

Speak for yourself. I know I'm good. I may be a sinner, and I may have faults, but I'm made in the image and likeness of God, and at my core, I am a good person - all people are.

 

[BobRyan]

1. God put "enmity" between the kingdom of Satan and humanity in Gen 3 -- so even in those who are not "born again" there is the supernatural gift of God causing us to resist sin -- so even though the lost sin -- they are not all axe murderers.

2. God also "Convicts the WORLD" of sin and righteousness and judgment" John 16 -- so even though the world has lost sinners in it -- and they sin -- they are still restrained and enabled to choose restraint by this all-world gift of God.

3. God "DRAWS ALL unto HIM" John 12:32 -- so even though we have a world of humanity with many lost sinners - ALL are enabled by the supernatural DRAWING of God -- to choose life. Wide is the road that leads to destruction Matt 7 and as we see in John 1 "He is the Light that coming into the world enlightens every man but men loved darkness... he came to HIS OWN but HIS OWN received him not..." -- choices are made all the time and it is not because no other choice is POSSIBLE

This is not a denial of the Rom 3 depravity principle that is in ALL of mankind "for there is NONE righteous NO NOT ONE" -- rather this is showing how the supernatural GIFT of God applied TO ALL in drawing ALL modifies the global law of drepravity that applies to ALL such that ALL have a choice... all can choose life! And even for those who don't as I point out from Gen 3 there is still the power of "restraint" supernaturally given to all mankind.

Bob

 

[Bubba]

....I dont see that the "dead" concept leaves room for any good in us.....

Speak for yourself. I know I'm good. I may be a sinner, and I may have faults, but I'm made in the image and likeness of God, and at my core, I am a good person - all people are.

CC,
What you do not seem to grasp, is that any good man has comes from God, so why not give glory where glory is due? "Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above..." James 1:17.
Bubba

 

[Catholic Crusader]

....I dont see that the "dead" concept leaves room for any good in us.....

Speak for yourself. I know I'm good. I may be a sinner, and I may have faults, but I'm made in the image and likeness of God, and at my core, I am a good person - all people are.

CC,
What you do not seem to grasp, is that any good man has comes from God, so why not give glory where glory is due? "Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above..." James 1:17.
Bubba

I grasp that. What I dont agree with is the statement that there is no "room for any good in us", which is what I was responding to.

I said that "I'm made in the image and likeness of God, and at my core, I am a good person." I think its obvious where the glory is going in that statement.

Why don't people actually take the time to read what I'm saying before the knee-jerk reactions kick in

 

[Bubba]

I grasp that. What I dont agree with is the statement that there is no "room for any good in us", which is what I was responding to.

I said that "I'm made in the image and likeness of God, and at my core, I am a good person." I think its obvious where the glory is going in that statement.

Why don't people actually take the time to read what I'm saying before the knee-jerk reactions kick in

CC,
No knee jerk reaction, just a honest look at oneself. At times I can not believe how evil I am even as a Christian. I struggle constantly with things like judgmentalness, lust, anger, pride, selfishness and etc. I have no problem claiming any goodness I have comes from God, any true choice I make of a spiritual value such as salvation and later in my walk the things I accomplish comes from God. Spend some time meditating on how evil you really are and God's mercy and goodness will take on a whole new meaning.
Grace, Bubba

 

[Catholic Crusader]

...At times I can not believe how evil I am even as a Christian. I struggle constantly with things like judgmentalness, lust, anger, pride, selfishness and etc.....

Well, maybe you're a little too tough on yourself. We call that "Scrupulousity." Luther suffered from that.

You have what we all have: Concupiscience, the downward pulling desires that are a result of our fallen nature. But at your core, you are a good person because God made you that way. I think Calvin went of the deep extreme end with all that "Total Depravity Of The Will" stuff.

 

[beloved57]

Let's see what Jesus Himself says...

And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill [it]; and let us eat, and be merry: For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry. Luke 15:23-24

It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found. Luke 15:32

Clearly, Jesus doesn't consider the son unable to repent and beg the father for forgiveness, as if he was "literally" dead.

answer my question..did abraham help raise himself from the dead ? yes or no..

 

[beloved57]

That sums it up pretty nicely. The Bible says Christ died for all men. John 4:42 describes Christ as "the Savior of the world,"

Correct He is the Saviour of the world, not a possible saviour..He saves them for whom He is saviour, thats what a Saviour does..

 

[Catholic Crusader]

answer my question..did abraham help raise himself from the dead ? yes or no..

What in blazes has that got to do with whether or not we have free will !!!

 

[mondar]

answer my question..did abraham help raise himself from the dead ? yes or no..

What in blazes has that got to do with whether or not we have free will !!!

Really? From my side of the screen I can see the analogy coming for a mile off. But this is beloved57s analogy, not mine.

 

[Bubba]

Steven Houck wrote:

"We see this to be true already in the very first act of salvation which God performs within the sinner, chosen and loved by Him. Regeneration, the new birth, is not man's work, but the sovereign work of the Almighty. Regeneration is the mighty work of the sovereign God by which He, apart from any will or work of man, gives life to the chosen but spiritually dead sinner. Thus we read in Eph. 2:4-6, "But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) and hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus." By nature we are spiritually dead, but in regeneration God makes alive. Regeneration is a spiritual resurrection from spiritual death. God gives life to those who were before absolutely devoid of life-"dead in sins." Just as the resurrection of the body is a mighty act of God, so too regeneration, as a spiritual resurrection, can only take place by the wondrous and powerful working of God's sovereign grace. A corpse rotting in the grave can not raise itself, for there is no life in it. It is impossible for a physically dead man to do anything. Neither can the spiritually dead do anything to contribute to their regeneration.

This is further demonstrated by the fact that regeneration is nothing less than the implantation of a new heart. In the prophecy of Ezekiel we read, "A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh." (Ezek. 36:26). By nature, the dead sinner has a heart that is as hard as a rock. It is not receptive to God's Word. It does not love God nor does it seek to walk in God's commandments. But in regeneration God sovereignly takes out that heart of stone and He gives, instead, a heart of flesh, a heart that is soft and receptive. As the Great Physician, He implants within the elect sinner, by His Spirit, a heart that loves Him and seeks to be obedient to all His statutes. Apart from that new heart it is impossible for the sinner to turn from his sins and, by faith, seek the true and living God."

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Steven Houck wrote:

"We see this to be true already in the very first act of salvation which God performs within the sinner, chosen and loved by Him. Regeneration, the new birth, is not man's work, but the sovereign work of the Almighty.....

I don't think anyone denies the fact that "Regeneration" is the "work of the Almighty." What I deny is that we have no choice in the matter. I say: It is up to man to make a free will choice to accept or reject God. If a man accepts God and accepts Christ, then the rebirth that will occur will be a "work of the Almighty." I see no contradiction in the two.

 

[francisdesales]

Let's see what Jesus Himself says...

And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill [it]; and let us eat, and be merry: For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry. Luke 15:23-24

It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found. Luke 15:32

Clearly, Jesus doesn't consider the son unable to repent and beg the father for forgiveness, as if he was "literally" dead.

answer my question..did abraham help raise himself from the dead ? yes or no..

no. And is inconsequential to this discussion on free will. You are mistaking spiritual death with physical death. Does the spiritual die when the body dies? Yes or no... Obviously, they are not the same thing.

Regards

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Let's see what Jesus Himself says...

And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill [it]; and let us eat, and be merry: For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry. Luke 15:23-24

It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found. Luke 15:32

Clearly, Jesus doesn't consider the son unable to repent and beg the father for forgiveness, as if he was "literally" dead.

answer my question..did abraham help raise himself from the dead ? yes or no..

no. And is inconsequential to this discussion on free will. You are mistaking spiritual death with physical death. Does the spiritual die when the body dies? Yes or no... Obviously, they are not the same thing.

Regards

Thats right francis. I learned that lesson right in Genesis. God said Adam and Eve would die if they ate the fruit but the Serpant said they wouldn't. Well, they ate it, and they didn't die - or so they thought. On the surface, it seems that the Serpant told the truth and that God lied. But only when one realizes that God meant spiritual death instead of physical death does one see that God told the truth, and the Serpent lied.

 

[francisdesales]

Thats right francis. I learned that lesson right in Genesis. God said Adam and Eve would die if they ate the fruit but the Serpant said they wouldn't. Well, they ate it, and they didn't die - or so they thought. On the surface, it seems that the Serpant told the truth and that God lied. But only when one realizes that God meant spiritual death instead of physical death does one see that God told the truth, and the Serpent lied.

AH, yes, this is a great example of "death", one that means a severed relationship with God, life Itself, rather than "dead" and unable to do anything but be worm food...

Regards