Free will or no free will?

[St Francis]

..There's evidence for both views. Why does it have to be "either/or" rather than "both/and"?

You know why Rick... it's because many people just can't wrap their heads around that concept or reconcile how both can be possible, yet... many of us have no problems believing the hypostatic of Jesus.

I DO have free will AND I also DON'T have free wiil?

You're right, I must admit, I can't wrap my head around that concept

But I can wrap my head around the Trinity. Odd.

 

[Rick W]

Can one be called to serve God while another asks for mercy and receives?

 

[St Francis]

Can one be called to serve God while another asks for mercy and receives?

Sure. But I would think that both of them choose of their own fre will: The one to go serve, and the other to ask for mercy.

In a certain way, they both hear Gods voice calling to them, and they both respond. But their response is their own choice, because the one called to serve could have chosen to serve himself instead, and the one called to repentence could have chosen to remain in his sin instead.

 

[Rick W]

I agree.
Yet, Moses didn't ask to lead God's people out of Egypt, in fact he really didn't want the job and Jonah didn't want to go to Niveva. Both chose something different than what God had in mind but there wasn't much choice in the matter. Yet the man in the temple with the pharisee beat on his chest asking God's mercy for he was a sinner and the man on the cross with Christ asked Him to remember him in paradise.

I know a pastor who didn't ask God a thing but God wanted him for a purpose and after a couple weeks he capitulated and became a pastor of a Christian church smack dab in the middle of Salt Lake City. And I've known people who ask for forgiveness/mercy and accept Christ into their life.

Why do we preach repentance if it's going to happen anyway? Why waste the time/energy? And then there are those who ask nothing and the Spirit comes upon them out of the blue.

 

[bleitzel]

I agree.
Yet, Moses didn't ask to lead God's people out of Egypt, in fact he really didn't want the job and Jonah didn't want to go to Niveva. Both chose something different than what God had in mind but there wasn't much choice in the matter. Yet the man in the temple with the pharisee beat on his chest asking God's mercy for he was a sinner and the man on the cross with Christ asked Him to remember him in paradise.

I know a pastor who didn't ask God a thing but God wanted him for a purpose and after a couple weeks he capitulated and became a pastor of a Christian church smack dab in the middle of Salt Lake City. And I've known people who ask for forgiveness/mercy and accept Christ into their life.

Why do we preach repentance if it's going to happen anyway? Why waste the time/energy? And then there are those who ask nothing and the Spirit comes upon them out of the blue.

Rick, you're kind of mixing concepts here. And St. Francis' post directly above yours was spot on. Why do we preach repentance if it's going to happen anyway? Because it's not going to just "happen anyway." And for those who aren't seeking God, or maybe more correctly aren't seeking a special mission from God, and God visits them and calls them to it anyway, well they can still resist. But they shouldn't, and the examples of Moses and Jonah that you give are good examples of that.

 

[MarkT]

First of all, I for one am not convinced that you are being led by the Spirit . But besides that Mark, you have fallen prey to some illogical conclusions and have posted them here once or twice. I think you said something to the effect that what if God predetermined your decisions, they would still be your decisions! And while they might be your thoughts, they wouldn't be your decisions because a decision is something that you yourself decide. Without someone else's predestination. That's the definition we're all working on. You can't win an argument simply by changing the definition of the terms. So if God made me come heer to these forums, he didn't make me choose to come here of my own free will, he didn't make me choose to come here.

If God wants something done, he creates a person to do it. You have to look at it in different terms; not that he made you do something, but that, in effect, you were made (or created) to do something.

For example, he made/created Pharoah for his purpose. And even when Pharoah would have let the Israelites go, God hardened his heart so that Pharoah changed his mind.

God made 'John the Baptist' - to make straight the way of the Lord.

He made 'Judas' - to betray Jesus. I think Judas hanged himself when he realized he was made for this purpose.

God made 'Peter' - to be a disciple; also to deny Jesus three times.

When God made you, in effect, he made the deeds you do. Actually he caused his own decision because all you are is his decision.

How, you might ask?

It was his decision to make you. God knows us. He should; he made us. Just as he made John the Baptist. John was God's decision.

Why did God create the wicked? Why do they prosper? Why are we called evil for preaching the gospel? It's all God's will.

I always marvel at where I am at any given moment. I might be here. I might be standing outside. I delight in the Lord wherever he puts me; knowing he is with me.

Our knowledge of God informs our decisions. He lets us know him. His Spirit guides us though we are blind. He prepared us for what we do. Surely everything we have learned has prepared us; everything happened in time for our own good.

In my spirit, I'm free. I can see where I am. I can see where I was. I can see my path. To some extent I can see what will be.

 

[bleitzel]

God made 'John the Baptist' - to make straight the way of the Lord.

He made 'Judas' - to betray Jesus. I think Judas hanged himself when he realized he was made for this purpose.

God made 'Peter' - to be a disciple; also to deny Jesus three times.

When God made you, in effect, he made the deeds you do.

Then by extension, when God made Hitler He made the torture and death of millions of Jews. All I can say Mark is that I don't think your God is my God. And I am happy for it.

 

[MarkT]

Pr 16:4
The LORD has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble.

 

[MarkT]

Then by extension, when God made Hitler He made the torture and death of millions of Jews. All I can say Mark is that I don't think your God is my God. And I am happy for it.

You shouldn't say things like that, bleitzel. You wouldn't if you had the fear of God.

 

[Rick W]

All I can say Mark is that I don't think your God is my God. And I am happy for it.

"Address issues, not persons or personalities."
Please, back to the issue at hand.

Rick, you're kind of mixing concepts here. And St. Francis' post directly above yours was spot on. Why do we preach repentance if it's going to happen anyway? Because it's not going to just "happen anyway." And for those who aren't seeking God, or maybe more correctly aren't seeking a special mission from God, and God visits them and calls them to it anyway, well they can still resist. But they shouldn't, and the examples of Moses and Jonah that you give are good examples of that.

Those that aren't seeking God and the Spirit comes upon them I seriously doubt can resist. And if they try it can be agonizing but surrender will come. I've seen this happen.

On the other hand we preach repentance to lead the lost to the Lord. If there is no freewill at all then the effort is mote.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Isaiah 54:13 And all thy children shall be taught of the LORD; and great shall be the peace of thy children.

Only those who learn from God are saved. I can choose not to learn from God though I had been drawn. Therefore we preach the Word, His Word not ours, unto repentance and ultimately salvation. Some will be drawn but choose the cults or other wisdoms of men to learn of Him. These are not His children.

If I learn from God then I've chosen to believe Him otherwise I cannot be taught though I had been drawn.

 

[St Francis]

I agree.
Yet, Moses didn't ask to lead God's people out of Egypt, in fact he really didn't want the job and Jonah didn't want to go to Niveva.....

Well, I think we can agree that those were a couple of unique cases. Also, there may be a bit of allegory blended in with those stories. With Moses, there may be a allegorical sub-plot blended in about resisting God's call but also about learning how to submit to God's will and trust in him.

 

[St Francis]

Pr 16:4
The LORD has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble.

The Lord does not make wicked people. The Lord makes people. If they become wicked, that is their choice.

 

[francisdesales]

Yet, Moses didn't ask to lead God's people out of Egypt, in fact he really didn't want the job and Jonah didn't want to go to Niveva. Both chose something different than what God had in mind but there wasn't much choice in the matter.

I disagree with that. I think we can all see something of ourselves in this. Sometimes, we are tasked by God to do something and we really don't want to do it, but we do it anyways. Does that mean God is "pulling the puppet strings" or is this not how Love works in the imperfect (or even perfect human, if we recall Christ in the Garden of Gethsamane)? Dying to self is not an enterprise we all willingly undertake - but for those who love God, the effort is made despite part of us rather remaining our selfish selves...

Regards

 

[Rick W]

You're looking at the task rather than the call. Paul going to Damascus wasn't looking to be reconciled with God. That wasn't a choice. One may consider his reaction as a choice I suppose but if a Spirit comes on you, claims to be the Christ, blinds you and tells you to do something I seriously doubt you're just going to throw up your hands and decide to go home instead.

Acts 9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
Acts 9:16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.

The pastor currently in Salt Lake City said he asked God, "Please don't make me do this." Belief was already a done deal. He wasn't looking for God, we wasn't looking to believe in the first place. And that's my point. He didn't make that choice.
Curtis, the fellow I mentioned before, wasn't looking to repent. In fact he said he was quite comfortable with himself and his life in general. But the Spirit touched his heart anyway and He struggled to reject Christ. But the struggle was in vain, only surrender brought him peace.

Yet there are those who do make the conscience decision to believe and have the freewill to turn back to their old ways. I've seen that happen also. What I haven't seen are those who are called to belief, such the pastor and Curtis, turning back to their old life. Maybe it does occur but I haven't experienced it.

 

[Paidion]

CHRISTIAN LEADERS IN THE 2ND CENTURY (100s) BELIEVED IN FREE WILL

For the Father had decreed that He whom He had begotten should be put to death,
but not before He had grown to manhood, and proclaimed the word which
proceeded from Him. But if any of you say to us, Could not God rather
have put Herod to death? I return answer by anticipation: Could not God
have cut off in the beginning the serpent, so that he exist not, rather than
have said, ‘And I will put enmity between him and the woman, and
between his seed and her seed?’ Could He not have at once created a
multitude of men? But yet, since He knew that it would be good, He
created both angels and men free to do that which is righteous, and He
appointed periods of time during which He knew it would be good for
them to have the exercise of free-will; and because He likewise knew it
would be good, He made general and particular judgments; each one’s
freedom of will, however, being guarded.
Justin Martyr (110-165 A.D.) Dialogue With Trypho chapter 102

“But that you may not have a pretext for saying that Christ must have
been crucified, and that those who transgressed must have been among
your nation, and that the matter could not have been otherwise, I said
briefly by anticipation, that God, wishing men and angels to follow His
will, resolved to create them free to do righteousness; possessing reason,
that they may know by whom they are created, and through whom they,
not existing formerly, do now exist; and with a law that they should be
judged by Him, if they do anything contrary to right reason: and of
ourselves we, men and angels, shall be convicted of having acted sinfully,
unless we repent beforehand. But if the word of God foretells that some
angels and men shall be certainly punished, it did so because it foreknew
that they would be unchangeably [wicked], but not because God had
created them so. So that if they repent, all who wish for it can obtain
mercy from God.
Justin Martyr (110-165 A.D.) Dialogue With Trypho Chapter 141

This expression [of our Lord], “How often would I have gathered thy
children together, and thou wouldest not,†set forth the ancient law of
human liberty, because God made man a free [agent] from the beginning,
possessing his own power, even as he does his own soul, to obey the
behests (ad utendum sententia) of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion
of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will [towards us] is
present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to
all. And in man, as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice
(for angels are rational beings), so that those who had yielded obedience
might justly possess what is good, given indeed by God, but preserved by
themselves. On the other hand, they who have not obeyed shall, with
justice, be not found in possession of the good, and shall receive condign
punishment: for God did kindly bestow on them what was good; but they
themselves did not diligently keep it, nor deem it something precious, but
poured contempt upon His super-eminent goodness. Rejecting therefore
the good, and as it were spuing it out, they shall all deservedly incur the
just judgment of God, which also the Apostle Paul testifies in his Epistle
to the Romans, where he says, “But dost thou despise the riches of His
goodness, and patience, and long-suffering, being ignorant that the
goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? But according to thy
hardness and impenitent heart, thou treasurest to thyself wrath against the
day of wrath, and the revelation of the righteous judgment of God.†“But
glory and honor,†he says, “to every one that doeth good.†God therefore
has given that which is good, as the apostle tells us in this Epistle, and
they who work it shall receive glory and honor, because they have done
that which is good when they had it in their power not to do it; but those
who do it not shall receive the just judgment of God, because they did not
work good when they had it in their power so to do.
Irenaeus (120-202 A.D.) Against Heresies Book 4 chapter 37 section 1

But neither do we affirm that it is by fate that men do what
they do, or suffer what they suffer, but that each man by free choice acts
rightly or sins; and that it is by the influence of the wicked demons that
earnest men, such as Socrates and the like, suffer persecution and are in
bonds, while Sardanapalus, Epicurus, and the like, seem to be blessed in
abundance and glory. The Stoics, not observing this, maintained that all
things take place according to the necessity of fate. But since God in the
beginning made the race of angels and men with free-will, they will justly
suffer in eternal fire the punishment of whatever sins they have
committed. and this is the nature of all that is made, to be capable of vice
and virtue. For neither would any of them be praiseworthy unless there
were power to turn to both (virtue and vice).
2 Apology of Justin ch 7 (Probably not written by Justin Martyr)

 

[bleitzel]

Paidion, GREAT POST!

And it wasn't until Augustine came along that we started to go awry. It's kind of funny how for hundreds of years before Jesus the Jews thaought they were chosen for salvation, and the Gentiles just weren't, period. Then Jesus came along and AHA! THe Apostles got it that no, we're all chosen for salvation, if we'll only accept and humble ourselves to Him. But then, along comes Augustine and we're RIGHT BACK TO THE SAME HERESY for another 1600 years! We went right back to the 'we're chosen for salvation and your're not' theology that is so distracting to the true faith.

It always makes me wonder if this heresy, this distraction isn't one of Satan's greatest triumphs! Augustine, Luther, Calvin, Arminius all the highly respected theologians all the way to the modern day have taught predestination, they just give differeng accounts of why or how it came about.

It's time to put this dog to rest!

 

[bleitzel]

Then by extension, when God made Hitler He made the torture and death of millions of Jews. All I can say Mark is that I don't think your God is my God. And I am happy for it.

You shouldn't say things like that, bleitzel. You wouldn't if you had the fear of God.

Mark, first let me first apologize because I was very snotty at the end there, and for that I am truly sorry. Second, I do very much have the fear of God, I just don't believe we have the same God.

 

[bleitzel]

St Francis wrote:

But God speaks to us through Jesus and the Church Jesus established. THAT is how God speaks to us. Jesus was the final WORD which God had to say to mankind, and nowhere did Jesus say we do not have free will.

God has created us with dignity so that we may choose to follow him or not to follow him of our own free will.

Hi St Francis,

While it is clear that man can obey or disobey God as you have suggested, free will is not thereby guaranteed. For a man to have free will he must also be truly independant from God. To use the example of Adam - I suggest that Adam was dependant upon God before he (Adam) sinned, but also remainded dependant upon God after he sinned even if he did not recognise or acknowledge his dependence. Man is dependant upon the environment God created in order to exist. To have free will - how do you propose that man can escape his dependancy on the environment God created and sustains?

I couldn't wait any longer, sorry. Even though I probably don't believe your assertion is true that man couldn't have free will if he wasn't truly independent of God, I can still answer your proof question. Man can choose, that's right choose, not to live by the constraints placed by God's universe on our coexistence with it. Man could, and sadly often does, decide to escape his dependency on the environment God created and sustains for us by taking his own life.

Free will does not imply freedom from consequences. If that is the fatal flaw in your understanding of free will then perhaps we could solve this for you once and for all!

 

[stranger]

While it is clear that man can obey or disobey God as you have suggested, free will is not thereby guaranteed. For a man to have free will he must also be truly independant from God.

Stranger, how is it that you beleive that to have free will man must be independent from God? This seems like a simple but fundemental misunderstanding of what free will is... I'll follow up to your reply.

Hi bleitzel,

Since I suggest that only an independant being (God) has free will. God can make a choice, or refrain from choosing, both equally freely.

 

[stranger]

St Francis wrote:

But God speaks to us through Jesus and the Church Jesus established. THAT is how God speaks to us. Jesus was the final WORD which God had to say to mankind, and nowhere did Jesus say we do not have free will.

God has created us with dignity so that we may choose to follow him or not to follow him of our own free will.

Hi St Francis,

While it is clear that man can obey or disobey God as you have suggested, free will is not thereby guaranteed. For a man to have free will he must also be truly independant from God. To use the example of Adam - I suggest that Adam was dependant upon God before he (Adam) sinned, but also remainded dependant upon God after he sinned even if he did not recognise or acknowledge his dependence. Man is dependant upon the environment God created in order to exist. To have free will - how do you propose that man can escape his dependancy on the environment God created and sustains?

I couldn't wait any longer, sorry. Even though I probably don't believe your assertion is true that man couldn't have free will if he wasn't truly independent of God, I can still answer your proof question. Man can choose, that's right choose, not to live by the constraints placed by God's universe on our coexistence with it. Man could, and sadly often does, decide to escape his dependency on the environment God created and sustains for us by taking his own life.

Free will does not imply freedom from consequences. If that is the fatal flaw in your understanding of free will then perhaps we could solve this for you once and for all!

Hi bleitzel,

Man has been created as a 'dependant being' - its too late for him to be independant. That from which man exercises 'will' or 'free will' is subject to his nature which is flesh or Spirit. He is either a slave to sin or a slave to righteousness. A slave in this argument is not free.