Free will or no free will?

[St Francis]

I see no scriptural evidence to support the notion that every event in the universe is fully and sufficiently caused by God

Thats because you dont believe God is the First Cause of everything..which is to deny His Sovereignty......

I have noticed a habit of making absolute statements that we don't believe in God or the scriptures just because we don't agree with you. You accused me of that as well in a previous post. I would appreciate it if you'd stop doing that.

Your above reply does not address the statement. Of COURSE God is the First Cause of everything. But by our free will, we make decisions daily that cause certian events to unfold that would not have otherwise unfolded if we had decided differently. So the poster was correct in pointing out that every event in the universe is not necessarily caused by God

 

[MarkT]

I see no scriptural evidence to support the notion that every event in the universe is fully and sufficiently caused by God

Thats because you dont believe God is the First Cause of everything..which is to deny His Sovereignty......

I have noticed a habit of making absolute statements that we don't believe in God or the scriptures just because we don't agree with you. You accused me of that as well in a previous post. I would appreciate it if you'd stop doing that.

Your above reply does not address the statement. Of COURSE God is the First Cause of everything. But by our free will, we make decisions daily that cause certian events to unfold that would not have otherwise unfolded if we had decided differently. So the poster was correct in pointing out that every event in the universe is not necessarily caused by God

What if your decisions are pretty much determined? They would still be your decisions. We see in the OT that God told some men what he would do, and what he was about to do, and through those men, who were chosen by God, God affected the course of human events. Did Abraham choose? Did Moses have a choice? No. They readily submitted to God's will. Could they have done otherwise? Human pride would say yes. But no. God knew them, and they were chosen to accomplish his will even before they were born.

Our decisions are based on our understanding, and it is the spirit that causes a man to understand. Who can resist his will? There are those who readily submit to God's will, and there are those who think that because they have a mind and a man can plan his way, that they can oppose God's will. I suppose every angel who ever left his proper dwelling thought so too.

Jesus said, 'Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? And not one of them will fall to the ground without your Father's will.' Mt. 10:29 'But even the hairs on your head are numbered.' So God watches out over sparrows, and he numbers the number of hairs on our head. If God counts these things as important, and they are not beyond his will, then we should not fear, because we are in his hands.

If your name is written in the book of life, and you were called, then you should consider your calling. Look straight ahead. Don't look to the left or right. We don't look at the way things could be. We see things the way they are.

We were called to accomplish his will. Though we can't see how, I believe we do. As for the wicked, they serve another. God doesn't cause them to sin. They sin because, as I said, they serve another. God gives them over to sin. Yet even they serve his purpose. It could be to put us to the test.

 

[St Francis]

What if your decisions are pretty much determined? They would still be your decisions.....

How do you figure that?
If a decision is pre-determined, then it really isn't a decision

Our decisions are based on our understanding, and it is the spirit that causes a man to understand.....

Perhaps. But the Spirit does not force us to decide one way or the other.

 

[Paidion]

The following scriptural statement was quoted, apparently in an attempt to prove that God is the author of moral evil, such as the rape and murder of little children, torture, etc., all carried out by God for "a deeper purpose", of course, though we are never told what the deeper purpose is.

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

It is a presumption to suppose that when we encounter the word "evil" that it always denotes moral evil. In this context, "evil" refers to disasters such as floods and earthquakes, natural events which mankind regards as "evil" because of their damaging consequences.

 

[MarkT]

What if your decisions are pretty much determined? They would still be your decisions.....

How do you figure that?
If a decision is pre-determined, then it really isn't a decision

If they were predetermined, you wouldn't know it anyways, because there's no difference between a predetermined decision and a decision, except you know it is predetermined. Unless the one who predetermined them told you it is predetermined, you wouldn't know the difference.

Actually, having the knowledge of God, we can ask God for things, and he will grant them to us, provided you believe. Which means, as we grow in the knowledge of God, God gives us more ability to do things; to let us decide, though not entirely. Jesus said, "A disciple is not above his teacher, nor a servant above his master; it is enough for the disciple to be like his teacher, and the servant like his master." Mt. 10:24

God lets us become like his Son. We are sons. But with that comes more responsibility.

 

[St Francis]

If they were predetermined, you wouldn't know it anyways, because there's no difference between a predetermined decision and a decision, except you know it is predetermined.......

Except for one thing: It wouldn't be my decision. If a decision is "pre-determined", that means it was determined by someone other than myself. And that means it is therefore not my decision. Its more like I'm a pre-programmed robot doing what I was programmed to do. And THAT means that the original programmer - God - is forcing me to sin, because He has pre-determioned my decisions. And THAT is TOTALLY UNACCEPTABLE.

God lets us become like his Son. We are sons. But with that comes more responsibility

I see no room for personal responsibility if my decisions are not mine to make. That is an untennable position. It is basically saying that I am not in control of my decisions but I'm being held accountable for them none the less. There is no way to reconcile that contradiction

 

[Paidion]

You are right, of course, St. Francis. I have often marvelled how a person who freely makes choices every day can believe that those "choices" were predetermined. It should be obvious that the statement, "Our choices have been predetermined" is a contradiction in terms. It's like believing in a square circle. Though it's a contradiction we can justify it by saying, "The human mind is not capable of understanding the square circle." Of course it isn't. No one can "understand" a contradiction. We simply accept it as a contradiction unless we cannot see that belief in contradictions are logically untenable.

 

[MarkT]

If they were predetermined, you wouldn't know it anyways, because there's no difference between a predetermined decision and a decision, except you know it is predetermined.......

Except for one thing: It wouldn't be my decision. If a decision is "pre-determined", that means it was determined by someone other than myself. And that means it is therefore not my decision. Its more like I'm a pre-programmed robot doing what I was programmed to do. And THAT means that the original programmer - God - is forcing me to sin, because He has pre-determioned my decisions. And THAT is TOTALLY UNACCEPTABLE.

What if God told you he made you decide to come to this forum. What would you say to that? Indeed, if you were a servant of God, you would know it because he would tell you.

 

[stranger]

Three summary propositions. . .

1. Every work that a man wills is also a work of God.

What if the work of man is evil? God is not thereby the author of evil but rather the man is.

2. Two men do exactly the same work, one can be evil and the other good.

Both are works of God with the provisio that God is not the author of evil.

3. Man is not an independant being.

As such he either walks in the flesh or the Spirit and EVERYTHING he wills falls into one of these two categories or natures ie flesh or Spirit. While there may be some grey areas from our point of view - these will not be problematic for God to adjuciate.


In accepting the above three propositions I would favour, technically speaking, that man does not have free will.

Despite the above there are instances in God's word where eg. David is given three options by way of punishment -

1 Chronicles 21: 9 The LORD said to Gad, David's seer, 10 "Go and tell David, 'This is what the LORD says: I am giving you three options. Choose one of them for me to carry out against you.' "

Within the parameters of these three possible punishments David is to choose one and the Lord will fulfil David's choice. Is David able to exercise free will or not?

 

[St Francis]

What if God told you he made you decide to come to this forum. What would you say to that?

I'd say God isn't very smart.

Indeed, if you were a servant of God, you would know it because he would tell you.

You seem to be equating God speaking to us with God deciding how we will react to his speaking to us. God does speak to us, but how react to what we hear is up to US

 

[Paidion]

What if God told you he made you decide to come to this forum. What would you say to that?

I would say that the voice I heard came from the demonic realm and that I mistook it for God. It is they whose assertions are full of contradictions. God's statements to us are never logical contradictions. The apostle John calls the Son of God "The Logos" in his gospel, chapter 1. One of the meanings of "logos" is "reason" or "logic". Indeed, that is the etymological origin of the English word "logic".

 

[St Francis]

....It is they whose assertions are full of contradictions....

Yup. Its all purely subjective.

 

[MarkT]

What if God told you he made you decide to come to this forum. What would you say to that?

I'd say God isn't very smart.

Are you here to blaspheme the Holy Spirit?

I ask you again, what would you say if God told you he made you decide to come here? Keep it in mind that I am asking the questions, and that I am being led by the Holy Spirit.

Indeed, if you were a servant of God, you would know it because he would tell you.

You seem to be equating God speaking to us with God deciding how we will react to his speaking to us. God does speak to us, but how react to what we hear is up to US

If God planted the tree, then it should bear good fruit. A servant of God would know, 'A man's mind plans his way, but the LORD directs his steps'. Pr. 16:9 What do you say to that? Notice it doesn't say the LORD causes anyone to sin.

What if God told you he made you decide to come to this forum?

Didn't the LORD say, 'I will lead the blind in a way they know not, in paths that they have not known I will guide them. I will turn the darkness before them into light, the rough places into level ground.' Isa. 42:16, and, 'Fear not, for I have redeemed you; I have called you by name, you are mine.' Isa. 43:1

He doesn't say, 'you are mine if you want to be mine'. No. He says, 'You are mine.' He doesn't say, 'I will lead the blind, if they let me'. The Psalmist doesn't say, 'he makes me lie down in green pastures, if I decide' or 'He leads me beside still waters, if I let him.' Ps. 23:2

How many times has the fear of the LORD prevented you from saying or doing what you wanted, or how many times has the Spirit of God inspired you to say, do, or write anything? Has the word of God comforted you? Has the Spirit of God ever brought things back into your memory, reminded you, chastised you, rebuked you, caused you to cry out to God, caused you to thank God? Was it your decision to gain insight? Did you say to yourself - 'I will decide what I will know'?

What if God made you decide once in a while? Would you accept God's help? Or will everything always be about your will?

 

[St Francis]

I'd say God isn't very smart.

Are you here to blaspheme the Holy Spirit?

Come on. I couldn't take that question seriously. Joking about your post is not blaspheming the Holy Spirit. Lets not get too full of ourselves here.

I ask you again, what would you say if God told you he made you decide to come here?

Its a crazy question. What if God told me there are aliens? What if God told me Pluto is made of cheese? I mean, what do you want me to say? Assuming it really were God speaking, then I'd have to accept it I suppose.

But God speaks to us through Jesus and the Church Jesus established. THAT is how God speaks to us. Jesus was the final WORD which God had to say to mankind, and nowhere did Jesus say we do not have free will.

God has created us with dignity so that we may choose to follow him or not to follow him of our own free will.

What if God made you decide once in a while? Would you accept God's help? Or will everything always be about your will?

But he doesn't. And yes, its all about my will. Otherwise my love for God and my decision to follow him is meaningless.

 

[stranger]

St Francis wrote:

But God speaks to us through Jesus and the Church Jesus established. THAT is how God speaks to us. Jesus was the final WORD which God had to say to mankind, and nowhere did Jesus say we do not have free will.

God has created us with dignity so that we may choose to follow him or not to follow him of our own free will.

Hi St Francis,

While it is clear that man can obey or disobey God as you have suggested, free will is not thereby guaranteed. For a man to have free will he must also be truly independant from God. To use the example of Adam - I suggest that Adam was dependant upon God before he (Adam) sinned, but also remainded dependant upon God after he sinned even if he did not recognise or acknowledge his dependence. Man is dependant upon the environment God created in order to exist. To have free will - how do you propose that man can escape his dependancy on the environment God created and sustains?

 

[St Francis]

....how do you propose that man can escape his dependancy on the environment God created and sustains?

I do not. I think God can hold us in existance by his will (as he does) and still give us free will at the same time. God is a pretty nimble guy.

 

[bleitzel]

While it is clear that man can obey or disobey God as you have suggested, free will is not thereby guaranteed. For a man to have free will he must also be truly independant from God.

Stranger, how is it that you beleive that to have free will man must be independent from God? This seems like a simple but fundemental misunderstanding of what free will is... I'll follow up to your reply.

 

[bleitzel]

I'd like to jump in the middle of this one

I ask you again, what would you say if God told you he made you decide to come here? Keep it in mind that I am asking the questions, and that I am being led by the Holy Spirit.

First of all, I for one am not convinced that you are being led by the Spirit . But besides that Mark, you have fallen prey to some illogical conclusions and have posted them here once or twice. I think you said something to the effect that what if God predetermined your decisions, they would still be your decisions! And while they might be your thoughts, they wouldn't be your decisions because a decision is something that you yourself decide. Without someone else's predestination. That's the definition we're all working on. You can't win an argument simply by changing the definition of the terms. So if God made me come heer to these forums, he didn't make me choose to come here of my own free will, he didn't make me choose to come here.

If God planted the tree, then it should bear good fruit. A servant of God would know, 'A man's mind plans his way, but the LORD directs his steps'. Pr. 16:9 What do you say to that?

Well, I would say that you misunderstand the passage. The beginning portion of Proverbs 16 addresses God's sovreignty and man's obedience. Several times we see passages that tell man to align himself with God's ways and he will prosper. Passage 9 simply reminds us that we may make up plans but ultimately God has control and if our plans do not align with His, He has the power to override us. It does not imply, within the context, that God does with us whatever He wills at all times. Nor does it impl that it doesn't matter what we think, that God makes us do all things. No, it simply reminds us that whatever power we think we have is only given to us by God. God has decided to give us some small power to think and act but he still is in power over us so we should remain humble and obey Him.

 

[Rick W]

I make a post first because I have something I want to say, a point to make. I then decide to take the time to write and submit it.
If we have no freewill but rather it's God always making us do what it is we do then why all these conflicting viewpoints? What's the purpose of making one fellow post one view then make another fellow post an opposing view?

There's something I remember about a house divided...

There's evidence for both views. Why does it have to be "either/or" rather than "both/and"?

 

[Vic C.]

..There's evidence for both views. Why does it have to be "either/or" rather than "both/and"?

You know why Rick... it's because many people just can't wrap their heads around that concept or reconcile how both can be possible, yet... many of us have no problems believing the hypostatic of Jesus.