Free will or no free will?

[beloved57]

This is elementary stuff..this is how i know you are not born again and understand scriptures..

Revelation 22:11 "He who is unjust, let him be unjust still...

One might add, "He who is arrogant, let him be arrogant still."

arrogant is right, when your will controls Gods will..

 

[cyberjosh]

If God's will is already being done on earth, this prayer is meaningless.

This is elementary stuff..this is how i know you are not born again and understand scriptures..

I've said it before, and I will say it again for those who may have not heard it: I, nor the moderators of this board - in accordance with the principles of Scripture, do not tolerate accusations against another person concerning one's salvation. Short of the person denying Christ with their own mouth, or rejecting a primary tenet of salvation itself, we have no footing from which to judge how a person stands personally before God. "Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand." (Romans 14:4). Please consider this a warning. We all may disagree at times strongly with another person, but let us not presumptuously attack a person on a matter of their soul on the basis of a difference of doctrinal opinion.

Thank you for understanding,

~Josh

 

[cyberjosh]

If God's will is already being done on earth, this prayer is meaningless.

And while I'm here I might as well join the discussion briefly.

Paidion,

To think that God's will is subject only to human willingness would be the greatest horror man could know, for we are too wretched to seek God apart from Christ - and as the Bible says "There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God" (Romans 3:11). There is a tension in the Sovereignty of God. Men can rebel against God, and frustrate & grieve God - and as the KJV says, "Yea, they turned back and tempted God, and limited the Holy One of Israel" (Psalm 78:41). And Jesus echoes, "Jerusalem, Jerusalem... How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling!" (Matthew 23:37).

Yet God's will must be done, and His word cannot return void, even if He must wait generations for it to be done. Why the captivity in Babylon? Why the occupation of Israel by foreigners in Judges? A delay of God's intensions to bless His people in the Promised Land... but a necessary chastizement. God punishes the disobedient (for the very reason that He is Sovereign) so that they might turn and seek His face. And some learn, as the Daughters of Zelophehad learned from the mistakes of their father's rebellious generation who wandered the desert for 40 years, and confessed to Moses, "Our father died in the wilderness; but he was not in the company of those who gathered together against the LORD, in company with Korah, but he died in his own sin; and he had no sons" (Numbers 27:3). They were perhaps the first in the Bible (mentioned anyway) to recognize and acknowledge the true lesson from the wilderness, and understood why it had happened (the lack of such an understanding had kept the Israelites wandering, doubting, grumbling, and rebeling against God).

Evidently men do not always obey God's desires, and thus we might be tempted to think that the will of God could be controverted. Yet we do not see this, but rather by the gracious, covenant mercy of God He preserved (and still yet preserves) for Himself a remnant of His own Sovereign choosing, which had "not bowed the knee to Baal" (1 Kings 19:13). God also has elected and predestined us for good works in Christ - His Soveregnty is absolute, yet His exercise and execution of His Sovereignty includes letting us make our own choices (though not without promptings and/or warnings from the Holy Spirit), for which we will recieve a judgement in the end times based on the deeds done in the body. Nonetheless, whether God must chastize us to lead us back to Him - that His will for His people may be done, or whether He must judge and purge all but a remnant - God's will ultimately & truely will and must be done, and His Sovereignty is absolute. There is no escaping it nor denying it.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[MarkT]

Nope. Man is just a creature. You go back and forth between man and spirit but you never attain any whole. This is why I dislike the Trinity concept. There's no spiritual understanding in it.

Of course man is a creature. What makes us unique from other animals is that we have a free will. We have an intellect. Just as God HIMSELF does. God also has intellect and a will, but being God, it is actually personified. And thus, we have three persons, Father, Son, and Spirit, the latter two being the Intellect (or Logos) and the Will of God Himself. Trinity has a very deep and profound understanding to it, I would posit that you are the one lacking, not the concept itself.

I am not sure how your line of reasoning leaves man without a will or spirit... A simple self-reflection will enable you to see we do indeed have a "force" that moves our physical actions, and thus, they are indeed united.

A man can only have one 'will' he can call his own, and Jesus spoke of his 'will'. For example, he said, "I came to cast fire upon the earth; and would that it were already kindled! I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how I am constrained until it is accomplished!" So if it were up to Jesus, he would have kindled the fire then and there. But he was constrained by the will of God.

Again, as I said, Jesus is a composite Being, one who is Divine and man at the same time. His divine will was the exact same as the Father's will, since the Son and Father cannot have two different wills - that is not monotheism anymore. You cannot have two divine principles with two different wills!!! Other Scriptures tell us that Jesus is God. In addition, we know Jesus is fully man. More so than we are. We have a will. Man's will is not God's will, unless united with the Divine Will, as Christ's manly will was united. And so, Jesus' human will wanted to do things a bit differently, but Jesus' divine will overruled that.

He was directed by God, led by the Spirit. He was the heir. Jesus inherited his position. Likewise, we are fellow heirs with him. I don't have two wills. Maybe you're refering to the flesh and the desires of the flesh. But my will is to do the will of the Father.

Jesus was the Word made flesh; chosen by God. 'Behold my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen, in whom my soul delights; I have put my Spirit upon him, he will bring forth justice to the nations.' Isa. 42:1

The Word was God because he proceeded from God.

Jesus was the pioneer of our salvation. The one who sanctifies and the ones who are sanctified have all one origin. Heb. 2:10-11 That would be the Father.

Likewise we have one will which we can call our own which we can acknowledge as being our will.

The more knowledge God gives us, the more we come to know things come to be as God has ordered them. Then peace will enter your heart. Then you will worship God in spirit and truth; not wishing for things to be as you want them to be but accepting things as they are ordered.

Yes. In other words, we are being transformed. Our wills are being changed to follow God's Will, just as Christ's human will was already perfected and always did the Divine Will.

God's will is done whether we want it or not, whether we like it or not, whether we agree with him or not, whether we desire it or not, whether we choose it or not.

And sometimes, God wills that men be condemned, although HE desires all men to be saved...

Free will of men must be taken into the formula, then.

Did Jesus choose to die on the cross? Nope. We see in his prayer that he knew what would be, and yet he prayed, 'if possible, let this cup pass'. And then he prayed, 'Thy will be done.' And for us, though we don't know what will be from moment to moment, we acknowledge it is God's will.

Did Christ choose to die? Yes, He did. John's Gospel makes it very clear that Jesus retained the ability and power to NOT lay down His life. He did the Father's will, although His human will must not have cared for the Father's ultimate plan of the terrible sacrifice in store for Christ's human body. We, too, undergo such inner pains of torment when we wrestle with doing something we know God wants us to do, and undertaking the painful steps necessary to do them. "God, isn't there another way" is not a blasphemous request!!!

I don't think I would use the word 'choose'. I agree he laid down his life of his own accord as he was charged to do, saying, 'this charge I have received from the Father.' But no one would choose to die. No. I don't think I would call it a choice. I'd say he was obedient unto death.

And finally, who does the Father's will? The son who says "yes" and then doesn't do it, or the son who says "no" but does it anyways?

The one who repents and is found doing his will.

 

[St Francis]

Sure it is, in the word "choose".

since when did the word choose turn into freewill ? God didnt say use your freewill did He..?

LOL. So what are you saying, that God is going to force me to choose the way he wants me to choose? What kind of choice is that?

This thread is ridiculous. The idea that individuals cannot choose to accept or reject God of there own free will is outragoeus and totally discards the dignity in which man was created, not to mention the fact that it nullifies the scriptures

1 Timothy 2:3-4
...God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth

John 12:32
But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself

Romans 5:18
the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men

Romans 11:32
For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all

 

[beloved57]

LOL. So what are you saying, that God is going to force me to choose the way he wants me to choose? What kind of choice is that?

Your not familiar with scripture and you dont believe scripture..

ezk 36:

27And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

The word cause is

`asah :

1) to do, fashion, accomplish, make

a) (Qal)

1) to do, work, make, produce

a) to do

b) to work

c) to deal (with)

d) to act, act with effect, effect

2) to make

a) to make

b) to produce

c) to prepare

d) to make (an offering)

e) to attend to, put in order

f) to observe, celebrate

g) to acquire (property)

h) to appoint, ordain, institute

i) to bring about

j) to use

k) to spend, pass

God produces obdience , He causes it..this is plain scripture, that you deny and dont believe for your humanism..now go ahead and rend this truth that I have shown..tear it to shreds...

 

[St Francis]

LOL. So what are you saying, that God is going to force me to choose the way he wants me to choose? What kind of choice is that?

This thread is ridiculous. The idea that individuals cannot choose to accept or reject God of there own free will is outragoeus and totally discards the dignity in which man was created, not to mention the fact that it nullifies the scriptures

1 Timothy 2:3-4
...God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth

John 12:32
But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself

Romans 5:18
the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men

Romans 11:32
For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all

Your not familiar with scripture and you dont believe scripture....

Oh, I DO believe in the scripture. Its your faulty intepretation of scripture that I disagree with.

 

[francisdesales]

You may think it is "safe", but you have left Christian teachings by such silly logic. God is not the author of sin

God is The First Cause of all things..sin included..

You have left the realm of common sense...

Adios

 

[beloved57]

You may think it is "safe", but you have left Christian teachings by such silly logic. God is not the author of sin

God is The First Cause of all things..sin included..

You have left the realm of common sense...

Adios

I know those who dont understand the bible and its truth would say that..spiritual truth is foolishness to the world of men..

 

[beloved57]

If God's will is already being done on earth, this prayer is meaningless.

This is elementary stuff..this is how i know you are not born again and understand scriptures..

I've said it before, and I will say it again for those who may have not heard it: I, nor the moderators of this board - in accordance with the principles of Scripture, do not tolerate accusations against another person concerning one's salvation. Short of the person denying Christ with their own mouth, or rejecting a primary tenet of salvation itself, we have no footing from which to judge how a person stands personally before God. "Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand." (Romans 14:4). Please consider this a warning. We all may disagree at times strongly with another person, but let us not presumptuously attack a person on a matter of their soul on the basis of a difference of doctrinal opinion.

Thank you for understanding,

~Josh

Jesus christ commands righteous Judgment..jn 7:

24Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

paul says in so many words, Judge the gospel one is preaching..

gal 1:

8But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

9As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

How does one know when its another gospel without judging it so ?

 

[beloved57]

Oh, I DO believe in the scripture. Its your faulty intepretation of scripture that I disagree with.

You dont believe this scripture..its obvious..

ezk 36:
27And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

 

[Paidion]

God's will ultimately & truely will and must be done, and His Sovereignty is absolute. There is no escaping it nor denying it.

Josh, I have no problem with this statement, or with any of the other points you made in your post.

That with which I disagree is the notion that every event that happens is God's will, every murder, every rape, every torture, etc. As has been pointed out, those who promote this idea see God as the author of evil. That's why I brought up the prayer of Christ as being meaningless IF God's will were always being done on earth right now.

 

[cyberjosh]

Jesus christ commands righteous Judgment..jn 7:

24Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

paul says in so many words, Judge the gospel one is preaching..

Precisely. And how are you being righteous when you could not admit into evidence before a court of justice (righteousness) the state of another's heart, since you cannot know the state of their heart? You can admit evidences from their stated beliefs, but it is not for you to give the verdict. We are not even to give ourselves the final aquital, "For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord" (1 Corinthians 4:4). Yes, we as Christians are not to abstain from judgement, but the judgement of the condition of one's soul is the Highest Ruling, and that is left up to the Supreme Court before the throne of God. Romans 14 tells us that specific instance on where we should not judge another, on the issue of whether thay stand or fall before thier master. Sure, point out doctrinal incorrectness, but don't be presumptuous enough to think that because of any percieved ignorance that they are thereby devoid of Christ's salvation in them.

gal 1:

8But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

9As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

How does one know when its another gospel without judging it so ?

I do not see how a difference in opinion about the how the will of God is brought about (regardless of how ignorant it may seem to you - [BTW ignorance is not infallible evidence of non-salvation!]) affects one's personal faith in Christ. If you can prove that belief to be his spiritual undoing, then by all means cast the first stone.

So please, indeed have righteous judgement, and judge only on what you can know from what a person can show and tell you. Yet leave the matter identifying the state of one's soul to the Lord, while you can go about God's Kingdom work to do your best to enlighten, preserve, and save souls for Christ yourself.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[cyberjosh]

God's will ultimately & truely will and must be done, and His Sovereignty is absolute. There is no escaping it nor denying it.

Josh, I have no problem with this statement, or with any of the other points you made in your post.

That with which I disagree is the notion that every event that happens is God's will, every murder, every rape, every torture, etc. As has been pointed out, those who promote this idea see God as the author of evil. That's why I brought up the prayer of Christ as being meaningless IF God's will were always being done on earth right now.

Yes, I see. Indeed I think you have a valid point there. This is where we clearly see that God allow men to destroy themselves if they resist Him vehemently, as Romans 1:28 tells us, "And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper."

So I think that is where God releases a direct intervention in their lives and allow them (hopefully only for a while - like was Paul's intention for handing two people "over to Satan") to shame themselves in their own deeds so that they will realize the debasedness of their actions. So yes, there you do have a point.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[Drew]

God's will ultimately & truely will and must be done, and His Sovereignty is absolute. There is no escaping it nor denying it.

Josh, I have no problem with this statement, or with any of the other points you made in your post.

That with which I disagree is the notion that every event that happens is God's will, every murder, every rape, every torture, etc. As has been pointed out, those who promote this idea see God as the author of evil. That's why I brought up the prayer of Christ as being meaningless IF God's will were always being done on earth right now.

I agree with you paidion. There are complicated issues and it is difficult to be precise in our terminology. I see no scriptural evidence to support the notion that every event in the universe is fully and sufficiently caused by God. This would indeed make God the author of evil. I am willing to bet that our differences are largely terminological - when you (Cybershark5886) say that "God's sovereignty is absolute", you probably mean something different that from I mean (or perhaps what Paidion means).

 

[francisdesales]

You may think it is "safe", but you have left Christian teachings by such silly logic. God is not the author of sin

I know those who dont understand the bible and its truth would say that..spiritual truth is foolishness to the world of men..

You seem to be confused on God allowing us to commit sin and God actively making us sin.

No Christian believes that God PREVENTS a person who seeks God from joining with Him. Sin prevents man from joining with God. You have God contradicting Himself and unfortunately, you don't even see that fact.

You have no clue about spiritual truth if you think God actively makes us sin WHILE commanding us NOT to sin...

 

[cyberjosh]

I agree with you paidion. There are complicated issues and it is difficult to be precise in our terminology. I see no scriptural evidence to support the notion that every event in the universe is fully and sufficiently caused by God. This would indeed make God the author of evil. I am willing to bet that our differences are largely terminological - when you (Cybershark5886) say that "God's sovereignty is absolute", you probably mean something different that from I mean (or perhaps what Paidion means).

Well, yes I tried to detail the nuances of my view in my posts. Like where I stated that the way in which God executes his Sovereignty allows for letting us do what we please (though with prompting/warnings from the Holy Spirit), and like the example I just gave where God can "give someone over" to their own sins - which clearly makes that person the author of the evil they do: debasing themselves. See my posts on the previous page to read more about that.

~Josh

 

[beloved57]

I see no scriptural evidence to support the notion that every event in the universe is fully and sufficiently caused by God

Thats because you dont believe God is the First Cause of everything..which is to deny His Sovereignty..

God Created Evil..isa 45:

7I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

evil here is the word rah which means:

bad, evil

a) bad, disagreeable, malignant

b) bad, unpleasant, evil (giving pain, unhappiness, misery)
c) evil, displeasing

d) bad (of its kind - land, water, etc)

e) bad (of value)

f) worse than, worst (comparison)

g) sad, unhappy

h) evil (hurtful)
i) bad, unkind (vicious in disposition)

j) bad, evil, wicked (ethically)
1) in general, of persons, of thoughts2) deeds, actions

God Created all that evil implies in the word rah..now go ahead and deny it..

 

[MarkT]

I see no scriptural evidence to support the notion that every event in the universe is fully and sufficiently caused by God

Thats because you dont believe God is the First Cause of everything..which is to deny His Sovereignty..

God Created Evil..isa 45:

7I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

evil here is the word rah which means:

bad, evil

a) bad, disagreeable, malignant

b) bad, unpleasant, evil (giving pain, unhappiness, misery)
c) evil, displeasing

d) bad (of its kind - land, water, etc)

e) bad (of value)

f) worse than, worst (comparison)

g) sad, unhappy

h) evil (hurtful)
i) bad, unkind (vicious in disposition)

j) bad, evil, wicked (ethically)
1) in general, of persons, of thoughts2) deeds, actions

God Created all that evil implies in the word rah..now go ahead and deny it..

I agree in a way, beloved. 'The LORD has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble.' Pr 16:4 But God doesn't tempt anyone, and we know we sin when we give in to the desires of the flesh.

However, according the the RSV, Isa. 45:7, The LORD said, 'I form light and create darkness, I make weal and create woe, I am the LORD, who do all these things.'

The LORD forms light. That's interesting because we are the sons of the light. The LORD formed us. The LORD creates darkness. Yes. He blinded the Pharisees so that they wouldn't see and believe Jesus was the Son of God. The LORD makes weal. Yes. He blesses those who love God. The LORD creates woe. Yes. He brings down the mighty. When panic strikes them like a storm, when their calamity comes like a whirlwind, they will call upon him, but he will not answer. So it is with this generation. They call on the name of the LORD but he does not answer them.

 

[MarkT]

Ro 9:18
So then he has mercy upon whomever he wills, and he hardens the heart of whomever he wills.

Perhaps, as Paul said, 'God may grant that they will repent and come to know the truth. 2Tim. 2:25