Free Will, Predeterminism and Predestination

[Jethro Bodine]

I thought you wrote "election" is not in the Bible.

Of course it's in the Bible. That's the only reason we're talking about it. What is not in the Bible is the word 'election' used in conjunction with the damnation of the wicked. As far as I can see 'election' is only used in regard to people receiving the mercy of God.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

And no, faith is not dropped into us, lucky creatures, while we sleep.

It comes to us through the hearing of the word.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

God does not give man saving faith.

Faith comes to a person through the voice of the Holy Spirit testifying through the word.

1 John 5:6
6...it is the Spirit who testifies to this (that Jesus is the Son of God-vs.5), because the Spirit is the truth

Romans 10:17
17Consequently, faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

Inherent in the word of God is the power of the Holy Spirit showing the hearer that what they are hearing is true. That's the gift of faith. It's the supernatural ability to know something you can't see really is true (Hebrews 11:1). We don't have the capacity to do that in our natural selves. When the proof of the reality of the gospel comes (a.k.a. faith) through the hearing of the word, we can either receive it and be saved, or we can cast it away and be lost. But it isn't until God opens our hearts up to the gospel that we can then have and exercise the will to respond. That's that element of God's sovereignty in salvation that I was talking about. You can't exercise your free will until God exercises his.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

AH, who does God have compassion and mercy upon.

Answer: God has compassion and mercy in salvation on the one who has the faith to ask for it, not the one who works for it.

Luke 18:13-14
13But the tax collector stood at a distance, unwilling even to lift up his eyes to heaven. Instead, he beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner!’ 14I tell you, this man, rather than the Pharisee, went home justified. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.”

Well, one group is those who are merciful. Blessed are the merciful for they shall receive mercy. So it does not depend upon the whims of God but our behavior.

In the passage I just posted above (Luke 18:13-14), are you best represented in the person of the tax collector, or the Pharisee? Which best describes your conversion experience? What commands were you careful to do in order to be justified in salvation?

You're seeing receiving mercy as reward for being merciful. That would be the works gospel that Paul talks about in which God owes you payment for righteous work you've done. Instead, receiving God's mercy is to be understood the same way the woman who washed Jesus' feet loved much. She wasn't saved by first being loving. She was loving because she had first received God's forgiveness in salvation. Jesus tells her that her faith has saved her, not her works.

Luke 7:50
50And Jesus told the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”

Her love was not a work that earned her salvation. It was an expression of the faith that saved her. The faith that justifies is the faith that will then be manifest in the obedience to be loving (Galatians 5:6). The obedience itself is not the agent through which one is justified in salvation but only an expression of the faith that justifies.

Those are the people he has mercy upon, not a predetermined bunch regardless of how they life.

The right way to look at it is people who don't care how they live have not received God's mercy. The wrong way to look at it is they don't have God's mercy because they haven't done anything merciful. The obedient life comes as the result of first receiving God's grace and mercy in salvation. The grace and mercy of salvation is not given as payment for first being merciful, or forgiving, or loving. Being merciful is the evidence of the faith in salvation that produced it.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If we don’t practice holiness we aren’t learning it. It’s not as all automatic.

The mistake is thinking that you are made holy by being holy.

And by the way I don't believe all changes in a person are automatic. We learn from the example of the Israelites that God leaves challenges to our progress towards him to teach us warfare.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

And ALL believers are blameless because through their belief their sins are forgiven.

There’s no scripture that says this.

Hebrews 10:14
14because by a single offering He has made perfect for all time those who are being sanctified.

Can you explain what this perfection is that all believers have? We know it's not sinless perfection, so what is it? Could it be the blamelessness that all believers have that you say they do not have?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

What the scriptures says is believers, like Ananias and Sapphire weren’t holy because of choices they made. They were blamed for their sin.

Yes, they were not holy in behavior and were indeed blamed for their sin. But not in regard to the perfection that Hebrews 10:14 says they and all believers growing up into holy behavior have.

The perfection the believer has is a legal declaration. Legally speaking, the blood of Christ removes all sin guilt in regard to being in union with Christ in salvation and included in the kingdom.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Jesus said at a point in history many born again believers would fall away from the faith and betray many. They are blamed for their behavior.

Only if their bad behavior is because they don't believe anymore. Because if they do believe in the blood of Christ, the blood they believe in cleanses them of the legal guilt of their sin and keeps them in their salvation. And don't even bother talking about the 'believer' who sins on purpose thinking grace is their license to sin and remain perfect in Christ. That's the description of an unbeliever, not a believer who is somehow perfect in Christ despite their sinning.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Only if they repented asking God and man as necessary to forgive them. It’s not automatic.

Legally speaking, for the genuine believer it is automatic. The believer does not lose their legal perfection in Christ every time they sin. The blood of Christ is always interceding before the Father in heaven on behalf of the true believer (Hebrews 7:25), and before they even realize it. Like Peter who only needed to have his feet washed, not his whole body because he was already made clean by the word, so God need only to deal with the practical issue of the believer's sin every time he sins, not the eternal issue of his sin. Only if the believer abandons Christ and stops believing in the blood will his forgiveness not be automatic through the completed but ongoing intercession of Christ's blood. Belief is what lays hold of the intercessory ministry of Christ, not your righteous works. And so it is the absence of faith that will cause you to lose the benefit of Christ's intercessory ministry, not your works.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You’re in for an unpleasant awakening. No verse supports this appealing theology. For example, if you fail to forgive others, your forgiveness is withdrawn.

But as we are see in scripture, the absence of forgiveness in you life is because you yourself do not have God's forgiveness. The real believer walks in the obedience of forgiveness, because he himself has been forgiven. The obedience of forgiveness being a fruit of the Spirit that he has as the result of being saved. The unbeliever doesn't walk in the obedience of forgiveness, because he himself has not been forgiven. That is why the unforgiving person will not be forgiven. They themselves don't have the grace of forgiveness to extend to someone else. They are showing themselves to not be forgiven through faith in Christ, not failing to earn forgiveness by being forgiving to others.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

if you fail to forgive others, your forgiveness is withdrawn.

Only if the believer stops believing in Christ. But that is a forbidden topic and so we can not discuss if this is possible or not. But the point is, not being forgiven because you have not forgiven others is not because a person fails to earn God's forgiveness by forgiving others. It's because they don't have God's forgiveness in the first place that would cause them to forgive others, and so they are condemned for being the unbeliever they are, not condemned for not earning God's forgiveness by forgiving others.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

This is interesting. Your theology has led you to decide that only THINKING that the theology gives you a license is taking the license.

Willfully sinning and thinking you remain perfect in Christ in salvation despite your willful sinning is what constitutes making grace a license to sin. So it isn't just about 'thinking'. It's about purposely sinning. God's grace is not a license that allows a person to live in willful disobedience and live in the kingdom at the same time.

So if you sin freely but tell yourself that if you don’t THINK you have a license (despite the behavior that clearly says you do sin freely) it’s OK.

No, that's not the argument.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

This is the theology that the Bible calls grace changers. It changes the grace given to us so that we do not violate the law of Christ in how we treat others into a blanket under which we can commit all kinds of desirable wrong behavior telling ourselves we are nevertheless holy and blameless.

The person who willfully sins is not holy and blameless because they failed to behave holy and blameless, but because they don't have the grace of God in salvation to make them holy and blameless before God through faith in the blood of Christ.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

God loved the man Esau and made a covenant with him giving him land that Jacob was not to take. God loved the man. This is a reference to the people who came from that man. The plan of election as it were, is the salvation that came to the world through the descendants of Jacob. That is the reference, not that Jacob was going to heaven and Esau to hell before birth. What a horrible idea!

There's a lot to talk about here. I may or may not hit all the points. First off, I'm not aware of the phrase "the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and Esau". But anyway, the point is, the promise of a son did not follow the lineage of Esau but rather Jacob, and not because Jacob behaved righteously while Esau did not. That's what election is all about. Election is on the basis of faith, like Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob had, not works. That is what was determined before Esau and Jacob were born and had done anything good or bad. Paul is showing that being a true child of God, and thus, being in line for the inheritance, has never been a matter of doing right vs. doing wrong. It was determined ahead of time by God right from the beginning that the blessing would come by faith, not works. That's the point.

Election is not a theology about who God is going determine ahead of time who would believe, and who would not. It's a theology about God determining ahead of time that faith is what makes you a child of God, not your works. On a personal level, I don't know if Esau was saved or not. I just know God said it was not through Esau that Abraham's offspring would be reckoned righteous. And like I say, I'm not aware of the phrase "the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and Esau".

 

[Jethro Bodine]

AH, who does God have compassion and mercy upon. Well, one group is those who are merciful. Blessed are the merciful for they shall receive mercy. So it does not depend upon the whims of God but our behavior. Those are the people he has mercy upon, not a predetermined bunch regardless of how they life.

Then why did mercy follow the lineage of Jacob? It's not because Jacob acted righteously while Esau did not. Paul makes that clear. But rather because of the calling of God and the giving of mercy through faith, not works. God's 'whim' if you want to call it that is that he of his own free will, not ours, calls people to his mercy and compassion. Which, in the context of Romans 9, is the mercy and compassion of God in regard to righteousness. The mercy and compassion of God that most in Israel failed to receive, not because they failed to earn it through works of the law, but because they failed to receive it from God as a free gift through faith (Romans 9:31-32). The way God established from the beginning as the way one would be reckoned as righteous. That's what election is all about.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Where is salvation in that verse? Pharaoh was raised up so that God might show himself to the world. No salvation there.

Pharaoh is used as an example of how God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy on, and has compassion on whom he wants to have compassion. And Paul is using that example to illustrate the giving of mercy and compassion in regard to righteousness, the context of the chapter. The point being, righteousness comes to a person through the mercy and forgiveness of God received through faith as he opens the door to that mercy and compassion to that person, not according to a person's works, or even their desire to receive it. This is the element of God's sovereignty in salvation that I'm pointing out. And it has nothing to do with God sovereignly deciding ahead of time who will be a believer and who will not.

Does God regularly do this? No, only once in human history.

He does it every day. I encounter people everyday that God has not opened the door of faith to. And not because of how they have acted, or because of what they want or don't want, but because God simply has not opened that door to them. That's the sovereignty of God in salvation. In no way can man's will rule over God's will in this matter. Everyone is at the mercy of God as to whether or not he will call a person and open the door of faith and salvation to them. You can't exercise your free will in the matter until God exercises his. It's that rat in a maze thing I was talking about. You only have as much free will as God's free will allows you to have. That's not a contradiction.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The desire to be saved is actually the beginning and required. It is not passively done to us as you believe. And no, faith is not dropped into us, lucky creatures, while we sleep.

I do not believe it occurs passively as I think you mean that. People don't just wake up one day saved. A person must consciously receive and retain the word of the gospel in faith in order to be saved.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

When and what God decides can be understood when one generally comes to understand the ways of God but no theology in the world will explain it as it requires relationship with God Himself.

In regard to election, it is the way that a person is saved that has been decided ahead of time by God. It was established from the foundation of the world that people would be saved through the grace of election by faith, not by the merit of doing righteous work. The only way in which God decides who will have faith is when and if he opens the door of faith to them. I'm not ready to accept election as God deciding ahead of time who will be a believer and who will not be a believer and causing people who would have otherwise believed and been saved to go to hell because God denied them the opportunity to believe. I'm not a Reformist. Hopefully, you can see how my view guards God's sovereignty in salvation while preserving the free will of the individual. Something Calvinism nor the doctrine of man's absolute free will does.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

No one disagrees that God decided the salvation plan beforehand.

What people don't understand is that is what the concept of election is all about. It's a predetermined plan on how men will be saved, not a group of people determined ahead of time by God to be saved by grace (though in his foreknowledge he already knows who they will be). Those who participate in that plan of salvation by the election of grace through faith are called the elect.

That's where I'm at with the whole thing at this point. The bottom line is, I think whether or not a person will believe and, thus, be saved is determined within the fundamental nature of who they are as a conscious, created being. Some people will simply never love righteousness no matter what God does to their 'soil' to raise that harvest of righteousness in them. God forgive me if I'm wrong, but that's where I'm at with it right now.

 

[n2thelight]

From whence comes this idea that God never meant to make man flesh creature? Of course we were made to be flesh. Genesis tells in great detail how God made flesh with his own hands.

Now are you talking about the Elect angels who were chosen when they did not rebel? If so, I agree. The Elect angels were chosen at that time. If you are referring to people then this is no where in scripture. The plan of God, the Book of Life were there at the foundation of the world. Names written in it were not.

We were only made flesh to be born of woman because of the rebellion of satan , my short answer to you is 1/3 of Gods children followed satan in his overthrow attempt , instead of God killing satan and all those that followed him at that time , the plan was to make us flesh .

When do you think satan sinned , and if he's already sentenced to death why didn't God kill him then , see this is the meat of the Word that you can't seem to grasp