Free Will, Predeterminism and Predestination

[Jethro Bodine]

That’s what everyone here says about what they think. Doesn’t mean it’s so.

So many people here do not accept what the Bible says. It's almost scary. Like the thread about not permitting women to hold positions of teaching authority over men. It so plainly worded yet it's astounding how many people just toss it aside.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Man’s will trumps Gods will when he sins. Surly this is obvious. It’s Gods sovereign will that man can trump His will within very far limits. Is this what you mean?

What I'm saying is man can not do anything that God has not first allowed. Nobody in their free will is frustrating the plans of God. Nobody even has any free will in a matter until God allows them to have it. And we think we're so free. We're only as free as a rat in a maze that has been carefully laid out and controlled by the free will of the one who made it. Our free will operates inside of God's sovereignty.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

So man’s will resists God’s will, right?

If and when and where God allows it. This is what I'm getting at. Man has free will, but only in the sphere of God's will. It's that seemingly contradictory truth that, both, man and God have free will. Neither Calvinism, nor Freewill doctrines answer this seeming contradiction, because they don't think it can exist. I'm showing you it does!

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Man’s will does NOT end where God’s will begins.

Meet me in New Delhi at 4:30 local time and we'll discuss it further.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

So where does this say God sought to kill then?

Sought to kill them? No, he did!
"fallen asleep"

 

[Jethro Bodine]

That is it what this is saying. It was the point in time when the Christian faith was not being sent to the Gentile nations. Before this the Jews didn’t preach to the Gentiles. God changed that. It does not say He determine Martha and Frank will now believe.

Right, it determines if Frank and Martha (cute couple by the way) have the opportunity to receive and believe the testimony of the Holy Spirit. They can't exercise the free will to do that until God gives them the free will to do that.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Why? Because she already was a worshipper of God. She already had faith. She wasn’t an atheist.

Then why did God have to open her heart to respond? Acts 16:14.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I don't believe he determines ahead of time who will be a believer and who will not. He controls when and where (and if?) a person will be given the chance to have the supernatural enabling of faith through the hearing of the word of God.

No evidence for this. He wants all to be saved all the time. He’s not micromanaging this.

I gave you the evidence. People can believe and be saved when God opens the door of faith to them, through the hearing of the word.

Romans 10:14
And how can they believe in the One of whom they have not heard?

When God calls...that's when you can be saved. That's when you can have the free will to believe and be saved and fulfill God's desire for you to be saved. Or, have the free will to not believe and fulfill God's will for the wicked to show the power of God's wrath.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Agreed. A free will choice in influenced by God.

God knows which parts of the maze to open up to a person, and when to do that, and which parts to close off to a person, and when to do that. And he knows what kind of cheese to use to get you go into the parts that are open. We're like rats in a maze. We run about freely wherever God has allowed us to run about freely.

 

[jasonc]

So many people here do not accept what the Bible says. It's almost scary. Like the thread about not permitting women to hold positions of teaching authority over men. It so plainly worded yet it's astounding how many people just toss it aside.

I was raised in churches that had female pastors . I came her as such .now I don't agree with it .


Can't ignore the Greek choice of words .

 

[Anaphora]

John 14:17. Even the spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth Him not, neither knows Him: but ye know Him; for He dwells with you, and shall be in you. God put spirit of stupor on some people, those with free will. The Election have holy spirit, their predestined, chosen before foundation of the world. Those in the flesh with spirit of slumber will be taught during millennium, every one will be in their spiritual body. Documentation revelation chapter 20. Gods elect will be priests during millennium, that's their destiny. The spirtualty dead will be taught during millennium. Many will find eternal life.

 

[n2thelight]

Why do you think Job 38:4 is addressing Job's creation? It speaks of God and what He was doing. Job was not yet conceived, which is what I say. We are not Mormons. Those who sang at the creation of the stars were not human beings, according to Genesis. Do you need the quote?

Who said that was Job's creation , God was asking Job where was he at that time ?Are you a son of God and His stars? The verse clearly states that we were with God when He created this earth

 

[n2thelight]

None of that is in scripture at all. Not a word. And your view is pretty mixed up. God does not seek to kill those who sin nor sentenced to death in any case. Take a look at death row. Sentenced to death but no hint that God wants to kill them. It seems I understand the meat of the Word better. None of what you write here is even there at all.

What was satans sin and when did it take place ?

Are not the wages of sin death ? Oh and just so you know ,God's law states that murderers should be executed .

 

[n2thelight]

So many people here do not accept what the Bible says. It's almost scary. Like the thread about not permitting women to hold positions of teaching authority over men. It so plainly worded yet it's astounding how many people just toss it aside.

What part of scripture says women can't teach ?
Or do you ignore the scripture of sons AND daughters shall prophecy

Acts 2:17 " `And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, `I will pour out of My Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:"

Is not a prophet one who teaches ?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

What was satans sin and when did it take place ?

You do not know? Do you think the timing is important? I suppose so since you think God had to change to "plan B."

Are not the wages of sin death ? Oh and just so you know ,God's law states that murderers should be executed .

God did not kill Cain and he murdered. That the outcome or wages of sin is death does not mean it is either instant nor that God Himself then sets about killing the perpetrator.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Who said that was Job's creation , God was asking Job where was he at that time ?Are you a son of God and His stars? The verse clearly states that we were with God when He created this earth

No, that verse says the opposite of what you want it to say. The "sons of God" in that reference is to other created beings same as in Job when the sons of God paraded before the throne in heaven human beings were not a part of that assembly.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

God put spirit of stupor on some people, those with free will.

One has to ask oneself which is worse, a spirit of stupor or having your free will ripped from you. In this view expressed above, there are those with a spirit of stupor but have free will to make choices or there are those who do not have a spirit of stupor but have no free will and are in a cage of someone else's choices. Hard to choose which cage is worse.

My mother-in-law is in a home and is sad and I think the reason is because she is in a prison now and can never again take a walk in the city, window shop or shop in any way, choose to go and look at the river, lay in the sunshine on a warm summer day. And she knows all of this on some days. So I see what it is like to be in a nice, well kept, pleasant looking........prison. The loss of freedom is more terrible than one might imagine.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

What part of scripture says women can't teach ?
Or do you ignore the scripture of sons AND daughters shall prophecy

Acts 2:17 " `And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, `I will pour out of My Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:"

Is not a prophet one who teaches ?

A prophet or a prophetess is not one who teaches as an office. They might teach now and again, but that is not their office.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

God knows which parts of the maze to open up to a person, and when to do that, and which parts to close off to a person, and when to do that.

Except there is no evidence or scripture that He does this as you state. You have a full on manipulation going on which the outcome in lives is evidence that this fails too often which means it does not happen. However, there is a moving of circumstances that does take place by His hand in what is more like what happens when a man woes a women. It is gentle and resistible and yet not easily discouraged.

And he knows what kind of cheese to use to get you go into the parts that are open. We're like rats in a maze. We run about freely wherever God has allowed us to run about freely.

We are not like rats in a cage. The limits to our freedom are those we know of in the natural world set up since the beginning. (We cannot fly if we jump off a bridge for instance.) He makes available truth and calls us to seek it. If we refuse He calls again later. But as I said, since many fail to come to him, many refuse his calling. Many are called but few become chosen.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I gave you the evidence. People can believe and be saved when God opens the door of faith to them, through the hearing of the word.

No that is not how it happens and the scriptures do not say it is so. The Lord decided the whole of the gentile world was now to be reached and started that. It was not for individuals. God wants all men to be saved and is calling all men. He does not enable some and not others to have faith. Faith is a choice a man makes. God is not giving them faith nor manipulating them. This is cruel.

Romans 10:14
And how can they believe in the One of whom they have not heard?

This is referring to hearing by people preaching. Notice Paul did not say "how can they believe in the One of whom they have not been infused with faith by him, unbidden?" He did not think God infuses faith into some or opens the door of faith but that men need to hear the Gospel when other men tell them that. Why is this not clear? Hearing is with the human ears, not God giving them suddenly special ears.

What you are doing is editing out the scripture you like so that it says what the author was NOT saying. This is really clear in the one you choose because the verses after say,

"How then can they call on the One in whom they have not believed? And how can they believe in the One of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone to preach? 15And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”g

Clearly this is mere mortal men sharing the gospel with other mortal man who come to believe it because of what it says. This has happened with a lot of people in the world. They hear the gospel and it makes sense and appeals to the heart that is weighed down with sin and they repent and are forgiven and believe. Yes God is involved in convicting sin and try to woe them, but He is not reaching inside and manipulating them so they have no choice.

When God calls...that's when you can be saved. That's when you can have the free will to believe and be saved and fulfill God's desire for you to be saved. Or, have the free will to not believe and fulfill God's will for the wicked to show the power of God's wrath.

No, no man is saved when God calls. A man is saved when he repents of his sin, asks forgiveness and is forgiven and surrenders his life to God. God calls a lot..many are called. But not all called are then saved. We all have free will all the time including free will to fulfill God's desire for us in many matters.

But this is really a strange view you have. A man has no free will but when God calls then suddenly he has "free will" to make one choice and one choice only." Reminds me of Russian election, "one man, one vote, one candidate" and you had better make that on voting day as there is no free will to refuse to vote at all. That is exactly what you are saying. We rightly see it as oppression and not freedom at all.

Why can't you accept that God gives man free choice to say yes or no and let it be at that. That is what is in scripture and real life. Jesus described the process and although in one case the Enemy steals away the Word, the others freely accepted at least for a time. He did not say God manipulated the ones receiving so that must accept the Word and have no choice or in your terms "suddenly have free will to say "yes" but no free will to say "no." This is not a good theology.