Free Will, Predeterminism and Predestination

[n2thelight]

All are not of the Elect , even those who have chosen Christ .

 

[n2thelight]

At conception

Therein is the difference in understanding scripture . Look at the below verses and tell me what it means to you

Job 38:4 "Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding." Job 38:7 "When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for Joy?" Who were these "sons of God" [the stars that sang], and when did these sons of God sing for Joy?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Therein is the difference in understanding scripture . Look at the below verses and tell me what it means to you

Job 38:4 "Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding." Job 38:7 "When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for Joy?" Who were these "sons of God" [the stars that sang], and when did these sons of God sing for Joy?

Why do you think Job 38:4 is addressing Job's creation? It speaks of God and what He was doing. Job was not yet conceived, which is what I say. We are not Mormons. Those who sang at the creation of the stars were not human beings, according to Genesis. Do you need the quote?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

We were only made flesh to be born of woman because of the rebellion of satan , my short answer to you is 1/3 of Gods children followed satan in his overthrow attempt , instead of God killing satan and all those that followed him at that time , the plan was to make us flesh .

When do you think satan sinned , and if he's already sentenced to death why didn't God kill him then , see this is the meat of the Word that you can't seem to grasp

None of that is in scripture at all. Not a word. And your view is pretty mixed up. God does not seek to kill those who sin nor sentenced to death in any case. Take a look at death row. Sentenced to death but no hint that God wants to kill them. It seems I understand the meat of the Word better. None of what you write here is even there at all.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

In regard to election, it is the way that a person is saved that has been decided ahead of time by God. It was established from the foundation of the world that people would be saved through the grace of election by faith, not by the merit of doing righteous work. The only way in which God decides who will have faith is when and if he opens the door of faith to them. I'm not ready to accept election as God deciding ahead of time who will be a believer and who will not be a believer and causing people who would have otherwise believed and been saved to go to hell because God denied them the opportunity to believe. I'm not a Reformist. Hopefully, you can see how my view guards God's sovereignty in salvation while preserving the free will of the individual. Something Calvinism nor the doctrine of man's absolute free will does.

According to Jesus, God does not decide the way a person is saved. He described what happens when the word of God is presented to a man and there are four possible outcomes, none of them determined by God way ahead of time. That would be cruel and God is not cruel.

Now salvation through Jesus is the general door through which all men must pass to be saved. But how that works is different in different lives as we see in that parable as well and the accounts in the New Testament. They are not all the same. God does not "decide who will have faith" and you cannot find a scripture that says He decided who will have faith. Nor does he give faith to people to decide. There is a "gift of faith" but it is not for salvation. Grace is the gift for salvation, not faith and that grace is not of ourselves.

I think your view is trying to have the cake and eat it too. You want to say God's will is always done as he is sovereign but admit that man has free will up until it conflicts with God's will which means it is not free. Why not accept that it is God's will than man has free will and can and does refuse to do the will of God? This matches real life and the Scripture. It is much easier to just accept the biblical view of this. God is not threatened by man exercising free will and defying Him.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

According to Jesus, God does not decide the way a person is saved. He described what happens when the word of God is presented to a man and there are four possible outcomes, none of them determined by God way ahead of time. That would be cruel and God is not cruel.

And you noticed that I resist God determining ahead of time who will be a believer and who will not, right?

I'm not ready to accept election as God deciding ahead of time who will be a believer and who will not be a believer and causing people who would have otherwise believed and been saved to go to hell because God denied them the opportunity to believe. I'm not a Reformist.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

God does not "decide who will have faith" and you cannot find a scripture that says He decided who will have faith.

He decides WHEN a person can have faith. And so it is in that way that God decides who will have faith. I showed you this.

Acts 14:27
When they arrived, they gathered the church together and reported all that God had done through them, and how He had opened the door of faith to the Gentiles.

Acts 16:14
14Among those listening was a woman named Lydia, a dealer in purple cloth from the city of Thyatira, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul’s message.

I don't believe he determines ahead of time who will be a believer and who will not. He controls when and where (and if?) a person will be given the chance to have the supernatural enabling of faith through the hearing of the word of God. Some people receive and retain it. Most receive it and reject it.

1 John 5:10
10Whoever believes in the Son of God has this testimony within him; whoever does not believe God has made Him out to be a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given about His Son.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Nor does he give faith to people to decide.

When God does or doesn't open the door faith for a person that's Him giving or not giving a person the opportunity to choose to believe and be saved. You can see that clearly in the verses I posted.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

There is a "gift of faith" but it is not for salvation.

As that is spoken about in Romans 12, I agree.

Grace is the gift for salvation, not faith and that grace is not of ourselves.

Grammatically, Paul is literally saying the gift of God is 'grace through faith'. The gift is not grace by itself. The gift is not faith by itself. He's is saying the gift is 'grace through faith'. You can not separate them, grammatically, to serve some agenda of making faith not a gift of God.

As I showed you, all you have to do is look at the definition of 'faith' in Hebrews 11:1 and you can see it is not of yourself. In your natural self you are not able to produce the evidence to know something is true that you can not see. It is a supernatural enabling by the Holy Spirit. That's what makes it a gracious gift of God for salvation. And as I've shown, God decides when and where (and if?) you will have this supernatural enabling through the hearing of the word. Some people receive it and retain it. Most receive it and reject it.

1 John 5:10
10Whoever believes in the Son of God has this testimony within him; whoever does not believe God has made Him out to be a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given about His Son.

1 John 2:24
24As for you, let what you have heard from the beginning remain in you. If it does, you will also remain in the Son and in the Father.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You want to say God's will is always done

No, I didn't say that.
If God's will is always done then every single person would be saved.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

God is not threatened by man exercising free will and defying Him.

What you're not getting is God decides when and how much a man can exercise his free will. A man's will is free when God allows it to be free.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Why not accept that it is God's will than man has free will and can and does refuse to do the will of God?

What I accept is what the Bible shows us. Man has free will to the extent that God allows man to have free will. In the case of man choosing to receive and retain the word of the gospel, God decides when and where (and if?) that happens. I showed you this. Man's free will is retained, but always within the sovereignty of God.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

And you noticed that I resist God determining ahead of time who will be a believer and who will not, right?

Ok, we agree. Although His will is that all are saved.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

God does not seek to kill those who sin nor sentenced to death in any case.

Any case?
Let's see.

1 Corinthians 11:29-30
29For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the bodye eats and drinks judgment on himself. 30That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Although His will is that all are saved.

Which as we know simply is not done in the earth. I never said God's will is always done.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

He decides WHEN a person can have faith. And so it is in that way that God decides who will have faith. I showed you this.

Acts 14:27
When they arrived, they gathered the church together and reported all that God had done through them, and how He had opened the door of faith to the Gentiles.

That is it what this is saying. It was the point in time when the Christian faith was not being sent to the Gentile nations. Before this the Jews didn’t preach to the Gentiles. God changed that. It does not say He determine Martha and Frank will now believe.

Acts 16:14
14Among those listening was a woman named Lydia, a dealer in purple cloth from the city of Thyatira, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul’s message.

Why? Because she already was a worshipper of God. She already had faith. She wasn’t an atheist.

I don't believe he determines ahead of time who will be a believer and who will not. He controls when and where (and if?) a person will be given the chance to have the supernatural enabling of faith through the hearing of the word of God.

No evidence for this. He wants all to be saved all the time. He’s not micromanaging this.

Some people receive and retain it. Most receive it and reject it.

1 John 5:10
10Whoever believes in the Son of God has this testimony within him; whoever does not believe God has made Him out to be a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given about His Son.

Agreed. A free will choice in influenced by God.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Any case?
Let's see.

1 Corinthians 11:29-30
29For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the bodye eats and drinks judgment on himself. 30That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep.

So where does this say God sought to kill then?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Which as we know simply is not done in the earth. I never said God's will is always done.

So man’s will resists God’s will, right? Man’s will does NOT end where God’s will begins.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

What I accept is what the Bible shows us.

That’s what everyone here says about what they think. Doesn’t mean it’s so.

Man has free will to the extent that God allows man to have free will.

Which is very very far.

In the case of man choosing to receive and retain the word of the gospel, God decides when and where (and if?) that happens.

No He doesn’t. Man chooses to retain the Word of God unless the Enemy steals it. This is something you have to ignore, that Satan takes away the Word and Jesus says so plainly.

I showed you this. Man's free will is retained, but always within the sovereignty of God.

Man’s will trumps Gods will when he sins. Surly this is obvious. It’s Gods sovereign will that man can trump His will within very far limits. Is this what you mean?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

No He doesn’t. Man chooses to retain the Word of God unless the Enemy steals it. This is something you have to ignore, that Satan takes away the Word and Jesus says so plainly.

Yes, man chooses whether or not to retain the word of faith given by the Holy Spirit. God decides when and where the Holy Spirit delivers it!