Free Will, Predeterminism and Predestination

[Jethro Bodine]

When a baby is filled with the Holy Spirit in the womb, it isn’t a matter of being a mere believer. On that level they walk with God from childhood. It’s a different level and FEW have that high calling with its benefits and price.

Yeah, it's simply that—a higher calling. I think it's the reason there was no greater man than John the Baptist (Luke 7:28).

Let me point out, it sounds like you're suggesting that having the Holy Spirit in you removes a person's freewill. Is that what you're suggesting? Did God create John the Baptist to be a believer apart from John's say in the matter, or did he know John would believe?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Unless they DO wrong.

Not me. The blood of Christ removes my sin guilt. That's how I'm blameless. How about you?

 

[n2thelight]

No, there’s no scripture that supports that very cruel act. You have to change the meaning.

Does that describe your life? Are you a prophet to the nations? If not, that’s not talking about you. It DOES describe Jeremiah’s life.

Notice not chosen for heaven. Are you holy and blameless? That’s what the chosen are to be. Best not use that verse because if you’re not holy and blameless, you’re not “chosen.”

No it didn’t. You will not find verse that says you personally were chosen for heaven.

But let me ask you,what specific task do you think you were chosen for? If this is what you believe surely you must know the task. If you don’t know the task, you’ll never ever complete it. Jeremiah knew his task. Paul knew his task and knew when he’d completed it.

Where do you get that idea? It means you do no wrong. No one can lay any blame on you for wrong.

This is playing favorites. All people have free will or God plays favorites. If I took your view of God and said that describes a certain father of many children, the obvious cruelty would be apparent.

Agreed!!

It’s a guess. Maybe so but I’m not depending upon that being true.

He’s already volunteered. So yes, he was a volunteer. All are volunteers.

After Paul had submitted. Not while he was killing the christians.

Well he knew everyone from the beginning.

That’s horrible. God is responsible for every evil the elect do! Jesus said WE, not God, will give an a seer as to the deeds done in the body.

You missed the whole point, when exactly do you think you were created ?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

The elect are called and chosen to be holy and blameless. And, yes, every believer is holy (set apart to God) and blameless (no blame for wrongdoing being held against them).

Unless they do wrong. If a person believes God accounts them blameless no matter how badly they treat others, they have an unpleasant surprise coming.

Ephesians 1:4
4For He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless in His presence.

He wants holy and blameless BEHAVIOUR not a license to sin as one pleases and it doesn’t matter.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Not me. The blood of Christ removes my sin guilt. That's how I'm blameless. How about you?

Wow, you have a rude awakening coming when you stand before the judgement seat of Christ to give an account of your deeds, good and bad.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

You missed the whole point, when exactly do you think you were created ?

At conception

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Wow, you have a rude awakening coming when you stand before the judgement seat of Christ to give an account of your deeds, good and bad.

Why is Christ going to hold a sin against me at his return that I had trusted his blood to forgive?????? Didn't His blood forgive it?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

He wants holy and blameless BEHAVIOUR not a license to sin as one pleases and it doesn’t matter.

I see my post went right over your head, lol.

ALL believers are set apart to God when they are born again. That's what it means to be holy. It means set apart for God's kingdom and purpose. Then we spend a lifetime learning to live set apart holy lives.

And ALL believers are blameless because through their belief their sins are forgiven. Believers are not innocent in having never committed sin. They are blameless in that blame is not charged to them because God cleanses away the guilt of the sins they have committed.

So, if you are indeed a true believer you have been set apart for God's holy purpose, and, you are blameless in that through your faith in God's forgiveness of sin no blame is held to your account for the sins you have committed. And that is NOT a license to sin. A license to sin is thinking these truths make it so you can purposely sin without regret or repentance. Grace does not give a person the license to do that. Grace was not given to us to do that.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If a person believes God accounts them blameless no matter how badly they treat others, they have an unpleasant surprise coming.

No, God counts someone as blameless who has treated others badly but who then have the blood of Christ applied to them to atone for that sin through their faith in His forgiveness.

The person who is purposely treating others badly in the name of grace is not born again for them to counted anything more than an unbeliever headed to the flames of damnation. Grace does not cover purposely trampling on the blood of Christ in unbelief. Grace covers the humble, believing person relying on the forgiveness of God in their weaknesses and failures.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

No, God counts someone as blameless who has treated others badly but who then have the blood of Christ applied to them to atone for that sin through their faith in His forgiveness.

The person who is purposely treating others badly in the name of grace is not born again for them to counted anything more than an unbeliever headed to the flames of damnation. Grace does not cover purposely trampling on the blood of Christ in unbelief. Grace covers the humble, believing person relying on the forgiveness of God in their weaknesses and failures.

Since you’ve made up your mind, there’s no point in showing you scripture that clearly says you will stand before the Judgement Seat of Christ.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Why is Christ going to hold a sin against me at his return that I had trusted his blood to forgive?????? Didn't His blood forgive it?

The question is not if you trusted his blood to forgive. The question is if you trusted his teachings enough to do them. Do you forgive all those who sin against you? If not, he won’t forgive you anything, as you were “trusting his blood” instead of his Word. ( You’re actually trusting your theology, not his blood.)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Since you’ve made up your mind, there’s no point in showing you scripture that clearly says you will stand before the Judgement Seat of Christ.

What you're not getting is I will not stand before Christ GUILTY. I will be blameless because my sins have been paid for through my faith in the blood of Christ.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The question is not if you trusted his blood to forgive. The question is if you trusted his teachings enough to do them.

So you subscribe to a works gospel where your obedience is what makes you righteous in God's sight?
I subscribe to the gospel in the Bible where God's forgiveness makes me righteous in God's sight. That's the righteousness that comes from God and not from yourself.

Do you forgive all those who sin against you? If not, he won’t forgive you anything, as you were “trusting his blood” instead of his Word. ( You’re actually trusting your theology, not his blood.)

The person who does not forgive those who sin against them is not failing to be saved by not doing works of obedience. The person who does not forgive is showing that they themselves have failed to secure the righteousness of God that comes from having your sins forgiven. The disobedience of unforgiveness shows you do not have the forgiveness of God in salvation, just as surely as the obedience to forgive shows you do...

Luke 7:47
47Therefore I tell you, because her many sins have been forgiven, she has loved much. But he who has been forgiven little loves little.”

So you can see that obedience is the result of being born again, not the way to be born again. We do works of righteousness because we are already born again through faith in God's forgiveness, not in order to become born again. Any 'gospel' that teaches otherwise is a false works gospel that will not deliver you from the flames of destruction when Christ comes back.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I see my post went right over your head, lol.

If you were holy and blameless you wouldn’t cackle at others like that. I actually understand your thinking quite well. You think how you behave to others doesn’t matter. Hence you laugh at them when they don’t agree with this theology.

ALL believers are set apart to God when they are born again. That's what it means to be holy.

No, sanctified means set apart when referring to people. Holy refers to behavior. Jesus said without holiness shall no man see God. If every born again person is automatically holy, this makes no sense.

It means set apart for God's kingdom and purpose. Then we spend a lifetime learning to live set apart holy lives.

If we don’t practice holiness we aren’t learning it. It’s not as all automatic.

And ALL believers are blameless because through their belief their sins are forgiven.

There’s no scripture that says this. What the scriptures says is believers, like Ananias and Sapphire weren’t holy because of choices they made. They were blamed for their sin. Other born again people also weren’t and Paul mentioned them by name. Jesus said at a point in history many born again believers would fall away from the faith and betray many. They are blamed for their behavior.

Believers are not innocent in having never committed sin. They are blameless in that blame is not charged to them because God cleanses away the guilt of the sins they have committed.

Only if they repented asking God and man as necessary to forgive them. It’s not automatic.

So, if you are indeed a true believer you have been set apart for God's holy purpose, and, you are blameless in that through your faith in God's forgiveness of sin no blame is held to your account for the sins you have committed.

You’re in for an unpleasant awakening. No verse supports this appealing theology. For example, if you fail to forgive others, your forgiveness is withdrawn.

And that is NOT a license to sin. A license to sin is thinking these truths make it so you can purposely sin without regret or repentance. Grace does not give a person the license to do that. Grace was not given to us to do that.

This is interesting. Your theology has led you to decide that only THINKING that the theology gives you a license is taking the license. So if you sin freely but tell yourself that if you don’t THINK you have a license (despite the behavior that clearly says you do sin freely) it’s OK.

This is the theology that the Bible calls grace changers. It changes the grace given to us so that we do not violate the law of Christ in how we treat others into a blanket under which we can commit all kinds of desirable wrong behavior telling ourselves we are nevertheless holy and blameless.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

What you're not getting is I will not stand before Christ GUILTY. I will be blameless because my sins have been paid for through my faith in the blood of Christ.

“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.”

 

[Dorothy Mae]

So you subscribe to a works gospel where your obedience is what makes you righteous in God's sight?

Nope. But what I believe is going to be difficult to communicate as I suspect you have ready made boxes to classify people. Am I wrong?

What I believe is to love God with all my being as He defines love to be and love my neighbor as I love myself.

I subscribe to the gospel in the Bible where God's forgiveness makes me righteous in God's sight. That's the righteousness that comes from God and not from yourself.

Jesus said if you don’t forgive others, you’re not forgiven either. Is that a part of your gospel?

The person who does not forgive those who sin against them is not failing to be saved by not doing works of obedience. The person who does not forgive is showing that they themselves have failed to secure the righteousness of God that comes from having your sins forgiven. The disobedience of unforgiveness shows you do not have the forgiveness of God in salvation, just as surely as the obedience to forgive shows you do...

Ah, so do you forgive others easily and quickly or have you failed to secure the righteousness of God yet? Do you tell yourself that this “securing the righteousness of God” varies daily depending upon whether you’ve forgiven new offenses or not? I mean we still live where we must forgive others, right? I mean new offenses come. So if we ever fail to forgive, is it that we’ve never secured the righteousness of God or that we lost it for a time?

Luke 7:47
47Therefore I tell you, because her many sins have been forgiven, she has loved much. But he who has been forgiven little loves little.”

How was this measured? BY WHAT WORKS SHE DID!

So you can see that obedience is the result of being born again, not the way to be born again. We do works of righteousness because we are already born again through faith in God's forgiveness, not in order to become born again. Any 'gospel' that teaches otherwise is a false works gospel that will not deliver you from the flames of destruction when Christ comes back.

If we asked those who live and work with you if you are abounding in these automatic works of righteousness, would they say that yes, you constantly demonstrate works of righteousness and it’s wonderful, your kindness to everyone? You never jeer at those who don’t think as you do?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

How can a person belong to the elect and not be elected himself?

The difficulty comes when a theology assumes this being elected happens before the foundation of time based on nothing but whim (unjust.) What is the elect are elected at salvation and not before?

Also, you can't use your conclusion (the elect don't have freewill) to answer the question of whether the elect have freewill. That's called 'circular reasoning'.

I didn't. That is not my argument, it is yours. Everyone on the planet has free will.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

The elect are called and chosen to be holy and blameless. And, yes, every believer is holy (set apart to God) and blameless (no blame for wrongdoing being held against them).

That is not what the scripture teaches. It teaches that the holy and blameless DO not do wrong so they are not to be blamed. It is not that they do wrong but just get away with it.

Ephesians 1:4
4For He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless in His presence.

He chose us to act according to his teaching and commandments before the world was created. He certainly did not chose man to sin freely but being accounted as sinless. Jesus said be as innocent as a dove. That refers exclusively to how we behave.

 

[n2thelight]

How can a person belong to the elect and not be elected himself?

Also, you can't use your conclusion (the elect don't have freewill) to answer the question of whether the elect have freewill. That's called 'circular reasoning'.

We were never meant to be made flesh . When satan rebelled 1/3 of Gods children followed him . The Elect were chosen for what they did during that time , they were justified then

 

[Dorothy Mae]

We were never meant to be made flesh . When satan rebelled 1/3 of Gods children followed him . The Elect were chosen for what they did during that time , they were justified then

From whence comes this idea that God never meant to make man flesh creature? Of course we were made to be flesh. Genesis tells in great detail how God made flesh with his own hands.

Now are you talking about the Elect angels who were chosen when they did not rebel? If so, I agree. The Elect angels were chosen at that time. If you are referring to people then this is no where in scripture. The plan of God, the Book of Life were there at the foundation of the world. Names written in it were not.