FREE WILL

[jasoncran]

Jesus preached it also.

jesus preached no such doctrine(s). he wasnt an arminist,calvinists or etc. he was the son of God. those are mans attempt to understand and delinieate what the bible does support.

i dont believe God will create men just let them burn for all eternity without at first giving them the oppurtunity to repent.

 

[Former Christian]

Jasoncran

Consider that the Jehovah's Witnesses don't believe in the existence of hell because they can't believe a God of love would condemn anyone to an eternity in such a place.

FC

 

[Vic C.]

I think that Calvinism is the only theology which preaches that people can't hear the gospel unless God allows it.

That isn't exactly true. Calvinism doesn't teach it that way. The problem isn't hearing. The Bible says all will hear:

Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Rom 10:18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

The problem is comprehending,

John 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

and obeying.

Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?


As for free will... I feel it's overrated. ;) Can we choose to fly on our own? Can we usurp the will of God? Can we choose to live forever on our accord?

I think not!

 

[childeye]

jesus preached no such doctrine(s). he wasnt an arminist,calvinists or etc. he was the son of God. those are mans attempt to understand and delinieate what the bible does support.

i dont believe God will create men just let them burn for all eternity without at first giving them the oppurtunity to repent.

What I was refering to is the documented fact in scripture that Jesus taught that not all men could believe, and that it had to be given by God to do so. I know perfectly well that Jesus was not a Calvinist. People can hear yet not hear, and see yet not see. The carnal mind does not understand spiritual things. This does not mean they will all burn in fire forever. There are two judgments. The only souls I know of that go into the lake of fire, the second death, whatever that is, are those who take the mark of the beast, those whose names are not written in the book of life.

 

[Eventide]

Jesus preached it also.

Yeah, maybe that's why they nailed Him to a cross.. because nobody could understand a single word He said and they couldn't hear it..

Only Calvinism teaches this nonsense..

 

[Eventide]

As for free will... I feel it's overrated. ;) Can we choose to fly on our own? Can we usurp the will of God? Can we choose to live forever on our accord?

Of course not, but do you actually equate these things with the ability to hear and understand that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures..?

Let's see, I can't fly or live forever so obviously that means I can't hear the word of God and understand that He loves me and died for my sins..

 

[jasoncran]

Jasoncran

Consider that the Jehovah's Witnesses don't believe in the existence of hell because they can't believe a God of love would condemn anyone to an eternity in such a place.

FC

i was a jehovah's witness. neither do they believe in heaven for all.

 

[jasoncran]

if any man wants to come to the cross GOD will NOT refuse him.

for all are called but few are chosen. the chosen is the onus not on God but on the person who recieved the gift of salvation. we have as much of God in our lives as we want or as little.

does God wake the calvinist up and zombies them to church?

 

[Vic C.]

Of course not, but do you actually equate these things with the ability to hear and understand that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures..?

Let's see, I can't fly or live forever so obviously that means I can't hear the word of God and understand that He loves me and died for my sins..

I equate these things to the definition of free will.

Free=Given, made, or done of one's own accord; voluntary or spontaneous.

Will=The mental faculty by which one deliberately chooses or decides upon a course of action

Did you or any of us wake up one morning and choose to be born again?

I've read enough of your posts to know you take stabs, even off topic ones, at anything that sounds Calvinistic to you. Been there, done that. Yup :yes

So if boasting about one's salvation is your fancy, go for it. I can't stop you; I can only reason with you.

does God wake the calvinist up and zombies them to church?

LOL, no Jason, He doesn't. HE stirs the very soul and spirit of all HE chose, which causes then to want to obey, out of pure joy and love, something a dead spirit cannot do on it's own.

 

[Former Christian]

God desires all to be saved. The Son of God died for all, not just a few. Otherwise God is a respecter of persons, which he is not. Ergo God awakens the dead human person sufficiently to be able to make a rational decision to serve God or himself. The grace is in the awakening through the Holy Spirit and what has been provided on our behalf. The grace is also in our having free will to choose whom we will serve.

FC

 

[Adullam]

God desires all to be saved. The Son of God died for all, not just a few. Otherwise God is a respecter of persons, which he is not. Ergo God awakens the dead human person sufficiently to be able to make a rational decision to serve God or himself. The grace is in the awakening through the Holy Spirit and what has been provided on our behalf. The grace is also in our having free will to choose whom we will serve.

FC

Good points!

 

[Former Christian]

Adullam

Thank you. Could you expand on what I said?

FC

 

[Adullam]

Adullam

Thank you. Could you expand on what I said?

FC

Sure

G o d d e s i r e s a l l t o b e s a v e d !

Is that expanded enough?;)

 

[ivdavid]

The Son of God died for all, not just a few. Otherwise God is a respecter of persons, which he is not.

I can follow your thought process in saying that God has to deal with everybody the same way, else He'd be seen to be partial which we all know He isn't. But we come up with this issue because we aren't rightly differentiating between partiality and sovereignty. God is sovereign, not partial.

What's the difference? Let's say 2 murderers who are found guilty are brought before the king for a mercy petition - and the king shows mercy to one and justly condemns the other to be punished - is the king being sovereign or partial? If the king was merciful to one and not the other based on some inherent factor in the murderers themselves, then he's being partial, a respecter of persons. Say, this was the first criminal offence of the first murderer while the second murderer had already murdered 5 people. Now if the king showed mercy on the basis of their past record, then he is being partial.

On the other hand, if the king did not get influenced by any inherent factors in the murderers themselves but decided on the basis of his own choice, then the king is being sovereign. Sovereignty is not wrong - partiality is.

I could elaborate if I haven't conveyed this properly enough here...

 

[Eventide]

Did you or any of us wake up one morning and choose to be born again?

Not at all.. although I did need to repent and trust in the Lord Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of my sins.

Now if anything it's the Calvinists who must have woke up one day and suddenly found themselves in Christ.. because let's face it.. they claim that there is absolutely NOTHING that they must do to be saved..

I've read enough of your posts to know you take stabs, even off topic ones, at anything that sounds Calvinistic to you. Been there, done that. Yup :yes

And don't forget that I'm intellectually dishonest and disingenuous... that's right along your party lines as well..

So if boasting about one's salvation is your fancy, go for it. I can't stop you; I can only reason with you.

Yeah, just look at all the posts where I've done what you claim here.. why don't you post some of the places where I have boasted in my salvation.. I won't hold my breath waiting.

 

[childeye]

LOL, no Jason, He doesn't. HE stirs the very soul and spirit of all HE chose, which causes then to want to obey, out of pure joy and love, something a dead spirit cannot do on it's own.

Where did you get this line? Is it someone you are quoting or did you make it up?
It is a great line that flesh cannot glory in but only glorifies God and esteems God as He should be esteemed.

 

[childeye]

God desires all to be saved. The Son of God died for all, not just a few. Otherwise God is a respecter of persons, which he is not. Ergo God awakens the dead human person sufficiently to be able to make a rational decision to serve God or himself. The grace is in the awakening through the Holy Spirit and what has been provided on our behalf. The grace is also in our having free will to choose whom we will serve.

FC

I take God is not a respector of persons as meaning He is unable to be impressed with anything a man does because He made man. Hence He says, The axe does not boast against the hand that wields it, refering to the axe as man and the hand as Himself. He has no respect for the axe since it is only a tool for His use. Therefore you're analogy is questionable as being applied to a Human freewill. You then contradict yourself regarding freewill by claiming God awakens the dead which is not by the will of man.

And here is the problem. We disagree on the definition of freewill. Freewill in theology according to websters unabbridged dictionary is the ability to freely choose without any restraing or compelling powers and apart from any antecedent events. To claim one has this ability is to believe in a freewill. Consequently, if we could agree on this definition we could also agree that there can be a freewill only when one has the knowledge to make a knowledgable decision, and conversely that one who is ignorant or deceived cannot have a freewill. But to simply say we choose therefore we have a freewill is not keeping true to the definition. The will is subject to what the mind believes to be true.

Now take your statement: He awakes the dead person sufficiently to make a rational decision to serve God or himself. This is already an oxymoron since rationally a man serves himself by serving God. If God has not sufficiently awoken this person to see that, then his rationale is compromised in ignorance of that fact.

Ironically you quote Satan as being true and God speaking lies. Satan said we could choose not to follow God and yet live and God said follow Me or die. The True options for man is life or death and this choice is an antecedent event not initiated by man's will. In other words a man must choose. Regarding which way he chooses however is predicated on his trust or distrust of God or his trust or distrust of Satan. Therefore one's image of god makes all the difference in whether he wants to live forever under His rule or would rather die than be under His Godhead. The free will will choose to serve God, for this will sees the True loving nature of God in the Image of His Christ.

Moreover the carnal mind does not rationalize the same as the spiritual mind. There were two men in the community. One willed to find a job where he barely had to work, got paid lot's of money, ate the best food, drove the best car, wore the best clothes, lived in the biggest house, got the prettiest women. The second willed to work the hardest jobs, get paid the least, eat the least amount of the worst food, walk to work, wear second hand clothes, live in the most modest house, and marry a devout woman. Which one was the best addition to the community? Where they put their faith is what makes the difference.

 

[jasoncran]

dont take jabs at admin its not wise

the zombie statement was not meaning that God does stir you up, but you can reject that. i have done that.2

one can harden ones heart to the lord. i have done that and will show examples of that. thus why i dont buy the idea of eternal security.

thirdly. i accept god's sovereingity, the idea of total depravation.

a man is sick jesus gives him the cure by showing what diseases he has and tell hims here take this too cure yourself. its up to the sick to take the cure.

"behold i stand at the door if any man LET me him, him will i sup with"

 

[childeye]

dont take jabs at admin its not wise

the zombie statement was not meaning that God does stir you up, but you can reject that. i have done that.2

one can harden ones heart to the lord. i have done that and will show examples of that. thus why i dont buy the idea of eternal security.

thirdly. i accept god's sovereingity, the idea of total depravation.

a man is sick jesus gives him the cure by showing what diseases he has and tell hims here take this too cure yourself. its up to the sick to take the cure.

"behold i stand at the door if any man LET me him, him will i sup with"

Who's taking jabs at the administration? Certainly one can reject God since we all stand condemned as sinners. If you harden your heart it doesn't mean you are not deceived into having some dark thought about God. Men don't just decide to harden their heart off the cuff. Most men harden their heart because they are afraid of getting hurt. If one does not take the cure which is to believe God is trustworthy but he thinks it is because his will is free and will prove it by dying, how sick is he?

14I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

15As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
16And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
26But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

 

[jasoncran]

Who's taking jabs at the administration? Certainly one can reject God since we all stand condemned as sinners. If you harden your heart it doesn't mean you are not deceived into having some dark thought about God. Men don't just decide to harden their heart off the cuff. Most men harden their heart because they are afraid of getting hurt. If one does not take the cure which is to believe God is trustworthy but he thinks it is because his will is free and will prove it by dying, how sick is he?

14I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

15As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
16And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
26But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

when the lord convicts you of sin do you always repent so easily?

i have seen me shot in war and watch the taliban unload into their buddy at point blank range to the head and had to fake death. this man refused christ.

any gift can be returned. its not likely but then why would the possibility of it be listed if its impossible?

i was adressing the member who was guilty of the deed and no one else dont be concerned you arent that person.