FREE WILL

[Adullam]

I still fail to see what you are trying to get at.

Besides, read her words. She was guessing. I'm trying to help her here, her idea isn't supported by the Bible so I was telling her that. I've got a post somewhere that I've been looking for so I can C&P it over here just for her. It's about how once we find God we give our free will over to Him and allow Him to take the steering wheel. That's why I didn't supply any Bible support (though I didn't feel it was needed as some of the other posters did a good job supplying).

Jen,

Sounds good to me! The bulk of what I was referring to is in the last half of it, but it's all a good read! :D

God works differently with different people. There are verses one can quote to support many seemingly contradictory things. But it is men that use one verse in exclusivity of the others. The word is entire, and the counsel is whole.

Paul made no decision for Christ at all, for instance. He needed to obey the vision. That's all!

 

[Potluck]

Hello Potluck-
It is nice to meet you!
You believe you are separated from God?

Hi Jennie,
:waving

Yes of course we are. We're still in the flesh. We may be better connected through the spirit I suppose but even then we aren't in His presence. Christ went to prepare a place for us and we are to have faith He will return to take us there.
We may have a solid faith, a strong belief in His faithfulness and love for us but we are still far from Him worshiping Him from afar so-to-speak. There's nothing wrong with that since it's what Christ taught us, to accept Him, to come together in His name until we are called home to be with Him.

Php 1:21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
Php 1:22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labor: yet what I shall choose I wot not.
Php 1:23 For I am in a strait between two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
Php 1:24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.

"having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ"

Paul knew he wasn't with Christ. I'm no better than Paul or even Christ for that matter since Christ's prayers to the Father had mentioned wanting to be with Him, to return to Him. To that end He died on the cross fulfilling the law and returning to the Father. No need to return if He wasn't separated from the Father in the first place.

 

[Jennie]

Hi Jennie,
:waving

Yes of course we are. We're still in the flesh. We may be better connected through the spirit I suppose but even then we aren't in His presence. Christ went to prepare a place for us and we are to have faith He will return to take us there.
We may have a solid faith, a strong belief in His faithfulness and love for us but we are still far from Him worshiping Him from afar so-to-speak. There's nothing wrong with that since it's what Christ taught us, to accept Him, to come together in His name until we are called home to be with Him.

Php 1:21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
Php 1:22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labor: yet what I shall choose I wot not.
Php 1:23 For I am in a strait between two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
Php 1:24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.

"having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ"

Paul knew he wasn't with Christ. I'm no better than Paul or even Christ for that matter since Christ's prayers to the Father had mentioned wanting to be with Him, to return to Him. To that end He died on the cross fulfilling the law and returning to the Father. No need to return if He wasn't separated from the Father in the first place.

Hi again!
Your name makes me hungry!
I never looked at it this way....
I know that God is Spirit and I know that His Spirit lives in me and I do not feel separated from Him.

I do feel I would like to not have the hindrance of my carnal self that sort of....pushes against His Spirit in me at times, but...idk, I am led by Him and feel Him and sense Him and hear from Him. I do not feel separated from Him.

So I think I understand what this man was saying, but at the same time, I don't think he felt separated but maybe more....hindered somewhat.
If He didn't move in me and speak to me so much, I guess I would feel separated..

 

[Adullam]

Hi Jennie,
:waving

Yes of course we are. We're still in the flesh. We may be better connected through the spirit I suppose but even then we aren't in His presence. Christ went to prepare a place for us and we are to have faith He will return to take us there.
We may have a solid faith, a strong belief in His faithfulness and love for us but we are still far from Him worshiping Him from afar so-to-speak. There's nothing wrong with that since it's what Christ taught us, to accept Him, to come together in His name until we are called home to be with Him.

Php 1:21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
Php 1:22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labor: yet what I shall choose I wot not.
Php 1:23 For I am in a strait between two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
Php 1:24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.

"having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ"

Paul knew he wasn't with Christ. I'm no better than Paul or even Christ for that matter since Christ's prayers to the Father had mentioned wanting to be with Him, to return to Him. To that end He died on the cross fulfilling the law and returning to the Father. No need to return if He wasn't separated from the Father in the first place.

If we walk in the Spirit we ARE in His presence. How can we be seated in heavenly places and not see the different view we are getting?

If I sit on a beach, how can I miss the water?

If we are truly in the Spirit we are in His divine presence. We can even see His light! Talk about fellowship in the light!

So if we feel distant from the Lord it is because we are still walking in our old nature.

 

[WIP]

I have gotten myself tied up in some knots regarding "free will."
I wonder if anyone has any thoughts that might help me.

Here is what seems to be my problem:
We are all born blind to God. I was born this way, same as everyone else.

So when I hear someone say to another that they have willfully chosen to reject God, it bothers me.

It is like saying....free will is this good thing that we have within our SELVES and we use it to find God. But there is nothing good in us...

I don't THINK I used free will.....
One day, I just suddenly SAW that He WAS.

I guess I am thinking if there is any such thing as free will, it must only come into play AFTER He has cured our blindness...

Any thoughts or verses?

What do you mean by "born blind to God?" I've often thought that we are born with a knowledge of God (created in His likeness) but because of sin we begin to rebel and reject God. It's up to us to make the choice (free will) to accept the gift from the cross.

 

[Jennie]

What do you mean by "born blind to God?" I've often thought that we are born with a knowledge of God (created in His likeness) but because of sin we begin to rebel and reject God. It's up to us to make the choice (free will) to accept the gift from the cross.

Hi WIP!
The Holy Spirit has shown me that in addition to the literal healing of the blind that Jesus did, the words are spirit as well and that the spirit of the words is that we are ALL those men born blind and that we have to go to Him and ask to receive our sight in order to understand the spirit of the words.

He also showed me that some of us are the blind man that it APPEARS as if it took two attempts to get him to see. Dp you know the one I
m talking about?

Jesus did something and then said: what do you see?

And the blind man was like, well, I see something that looks like trees but they can't be trees because trees do not move that way so I see men walking around...

So then, Jesus seems to have..tinkered some more...except that's ridiculous, right? Because Jesus did not NEED two attempts to get the miracle right!

So the meaning of the "parable" for us is that when we do receive our sight and the Holy Spirit, we need to stay with Jesus to learn instead of running right out to immediately consult with men. Because though we have been given our sight, it is still the blurry sight of a newborn.

If that man had not stayed to talk with Jesus but had instead run off down the street screaming about how he could see, it would have become apparent to those who could see very clearly that his eyesight was there but was very, very poor and blurry. He might start insisting that he saw oranges and when they told him, no, they are apples, he might have become arrogant, thinking he could see perfectly well and begun to argue that they were fools because he darn well knew he was seeing apples!

The point is, he DID remain to talk with Jesus and so his sight was firmed up...

Another sort of...application would be if he first ran across ANOTHER man who did not see very clearly or well, and began to trust what that man told him he was seeing, not even knowing that the other man ALSO did not have perfect vision and so was not the best guide!

 

[WIP]

Hi WIP!
The Holy Spirit has shown me that in addition to the literal healing of the blind that Jesus did, the words are spirit as well and that the spirit of the words is that we are ALL those men born blind and that we have to go to Him and ask to receive our sight in order to understand the spirit of the words.

He also showed me that some of us are the blind man that it APPEARS as if it took two attempts to get him to see. Dp you know the one I
m talking about?

Jesus did something and then said: what do you see?

And the blind man was like, well, I see something that looks like trees but they can't be trees because trees do not move that way so I see men walking around...

So then, Jesus seems to have..tinkered some more...except that's ridiculous, right? Because Jesus did not NEED two attempts to get the miracle right!

So the meaning of the "parable" for us is that when we do receive our sight and the Holy Spirit, we need to stay with Jesus to learn instead of running right out to immediately consult with men. Because though we have been given our sight, it is still the blurry sight of a newborn.

If that man had not stayed to talk with Jesus but had instead run off down the street screaming about how he could see, it would have become apparent to those who could see very clearly that his eyesight was there but was very, very poor and blurry. He might start insisting that he saw oranges and when they told him, no, they are apples, he might have become arrogant, thinking he could see perfectly well and begun to argue that they were fools because he darn well knew he was seeing apples!

The point is, he DID remain to talk with Jesus and so his sight was firmed up...

Another sort of...application would be if he first ran across ANOTHER man who did not see very clearly or well, and began to trust what that man told him he was seeing, not even knowing that the other man ALSO did not have perfect vision and so was not the best guide!

Okay, I see your point. Do you think it is possible that we are not born blind but because of sin, our vision is blurred? I'm relating this to Adam and Eve. Were they born blind or did they become disoriented when they fell into sin? On more than one occasion Jesus used phrases like, "Those with ears, let them hear," or "Those with eyes, let them see." This seems to imply that there are some that are not "naturally" blind.

 

[Jennie]

Okay, I see your point. Do you think it is possible that we are not born blind but because of sin, our vision is blurred? I'm relating this to Adam and Eve. Were they born blind or did they become disoriented when they fell into sin? On more than one occasion Jesus used phrases like, "Those with ears, let them hear," or "Those with eyes, let them see." This seems to imply that there are some that are not "naturally" blind.

Hi again wip!
Thank you for talking to me!
I am enjoying the company of you guys, my brothers and sisters so much!
I think Adam and Eve were different in some respects. They weren't born - they were created. They were created, as other creatures were created, to "bring forth of their own kind." Leopards bring forth leopards, frogs bring forth frogs, etc.

When God told them they would die if they ate the fruit, it is apparent they didn't die - in fact, they lived for HUNDREDS of years longer than we do today, right?

Yet God tells the truth. Their death was a spiritual death right away and the physical death followed later.

When they brought forth of their own kind (after their death), they could only bring forth the spiritually dead. There was no option - they were created to bring forth of their own kind.

Do you remember the verse that says: And then Adam had a son, born in HIS OWN image, and named him Seth?

When I read this, together with what the Holy Spirit has shown me of us all being born blind, I look at it as we are born without God's Spirit in us, and since it is the SPIRIT who brings to life, we are justdead, blind, deaf, lame, crippled, unable to see God.

I think when Jesus said those words, He was saying them for people who would be given their sight through receiving the Holy Spirit. Ears to hear what He was saying would be ears cured of their deafness by receiving the Holy Spirit and being guided into truth. No man is born that way. We're born in a hideous state but we do not know we are missing a second set of eyes and ears because everyone is just born that way. It seems normal.

It's like if every man on earth was born with one arm......how would they know they were meant to have been born with two arms. Someone came along who HAD two arms would seem like a freak to them!

What do you think, WIP?

 

[Jennie]

IMO if men do not have free will then all sin must be attributed to God.

That's simply spiritual insanity.

Eventide, hello!
I have been gnawing something over in my mind because of this post but I had a hard time finding your post again!

What you have said reminds me of darkness. What I mean is....we know God created darkness. (Job)

Yet it is maddening to think of this! How can John tell us that there is nothing that was created that was created but by the Light/Jesus. All things were created through Him. Now how the heck does LIGHT create DARKNESS??!

The only way Light created darkness would be by a NEGATIVE creation. Not a positive creation like the other things that God created which it says "and so it happened", and "God saw that it was good."

So the only way. for Light to create darkness would be by casting someone FROM His presence. Does this seem like a negative creation? He DID create or cause darkness but only by turning off the light/casting away FROM the Light/ His presence.

Then again, darkness, when I looked it up in concordance, seems to mean: a twisting away from the light....

So....your post got me thinking, do we refuse to attribute darkness to God by saying: Well, this can't be! God did NOT create darkness! But Job says He did create it.

I guess I'm saying.....I think your statement might be something like this too....
Does any of it make any sense to you? What do you think...?

And what do you think about Adam and Eve having free will in the way people seem to mean it when they say it, but US, who were born without God's Spirit not having that "free will" in the same sense?. THEY had God's Spirit from the day they were created. WE were born without it. Can you see a difference of some kind?

 

[Eventide]

Eventide, hello!
I have been gnawing something over in my mind because of this post but I had a hard time finding your post again!

What you have said reminds me of darkness. What I mean is....we know God created darkness. (Job)

Yet it is maddening to think of this! How can John tell us that there is nothing that was created that was created but by the Light/Jesus. All things were created through Him. Now how the heck does LIGHT create DARKNESS??!

The only way Light created darkness would be by a NEGATIVE creation. Not a positive creation like the other things that God created which it says "and so it happened", and "God saw that it was good."

So the only way. for Light to create darkness would be by casting someone FROM His presence. Does this seem like a negative creation? He DID create or cause darkness but only by turning off the light/casting away FROM the Light/ His presence.

Then again, darkness, when I looked it up in concordance, seems to mean: a twisting away from the light....

So....your post got me thinking, do we refuse to attribute darkness to God by saying: Well, this can't be! God did NOT create darkness! But Job says He did create it.

I guess I'm saying.....I think your statement might be something like this too....
Does any of it make any sense to you? What do you think...?

And what do you think about Adam and Eve having free will in the way people seem to mean it when they say it, but US, who were born without God's Spirit not having that "free will" in the same sense?. THEY had God's Spirit from the day they were created. WE were born without it. Can you see a difference of some kind?

I really don't know what your point is here Jennie, and I don't understand what you're talking about.

Are you arguing against free will ?

Could you freely hear the gospel ?

Were you free in your mind to either agree with what it says or to disagree with it..?

 

[Eventide]

Jennie,

Perhaps you're trying to say that because God also created darkness that some men were created for that ? I'm not sure if that's what you are saying although if so, then we know that people choose darkness over the light for a reason.. because their deeds are evil. Not because God created them that way.

He is that true light which lighteth every man that comes into the world.

 

[Jennie]

I really don't know what your point is here Jennie, and I don't understand what you're talking about.

Are you arguing against free will ?

Could you freely hear the gospel ?

Were you free in your mind to either agree with what it says or to disagree with it..?

GM, Eventide!
Let me try to explain again.
No, I'm not arguing at all.
I'm exchanging ideas.
I don't argue.
I hope to get to know you and everyone in here better and for you to get to know me better. I think when you know me better you will see that I don't argue.

You said you had to believe in free will as it is taught because to do otherwise would be, in your mind, like attributing sin to God, as if sin is His FAULT.

I completely understood your mind in this. Completely .

I was saying how it seems absurd to me to attribute darkness to God too. But yet, it says in Job that God created the darkness. So I was trying to explain how it made no sense to me except when I saw that it was a NEGATIVE creation. That He did not positively say: Let there be darkness. So I can't say that He didn't create it because He DID. But He only did so in the negative sense of removing something - Light.

I was saying how I thought your statement reminded me of how I used to say: well, there is no WAY God created darkness!

Satan sinned and Adam and Eve sinned and I see their sin as free will, completely, because they had God's Spirit in them. I was born without His Spirit in me and so I could NOT see Him. I HAD no choice but to sin because sin was IN me. I HAD no choice but to serve darkness. But NOW that His Spirit is in me, I DO have the free will to either obey what He says or to obey the doctrines that man comes up with.

So my sin seems to me to be a result of something negative - God removing His Spirit from Adam and hence, me being born without His Spirit. This doesn't mean I say: well then, sin IN me is all God's fault! It means I say: Praise God that He has lifted me from out of the futility that one mans sin brought to all born!

As to your other questions, no, I could not freely hear the gospel until He cured my deafness, and I was NOT free to either agree with it or not until He gave me the sight to see that He WAS. But NOW I no longer am in the state I was born in, in which I had no choice but to serve sin. NOW I have the free will men speak of!

You don't have to agree with me. I'm not arguing. I'm showing you my mind on it, that's all.

 

[Jennie]

Jennie,

Perhaps you're trying to say that because God also created darkness that some men were created for that ? I'm not sure if that's what you are saying although if so, then we know that people choose darkness over the light for a reason.. because their deeds are evil. Not because God created them that way.

He is that true light which lighteth every man that comes into the world.

Do you know, it just now occurs to me that we think differently about created and born.

I think Adam was created and that we were born.
Adam was created WITH God's Spirit IN him.
We were born WITHOUT God's Spirit IN us.

 

[Eventide]

GM, Eventide!
Let me try to explain again.
No, I'm not arguing at all.
I'm exchanging ideas.
I don't argue.
I hope to get to know you and everyone in here better and for you to get to know me better. I think when you know me better you will see that I don't argue.

I meant argue in the sense of what you're speaking for or against.. not that we're yelling at each other.

As to your other questions, no, I could not freely hear the gospel until He cured my deafness, and I was NOT free to either agree with it or not until He gave me the sight to see that He WAS. But NOW I no longer am in the state I was born in, in which I had no choice but to serve sin. NOW I have the free will men speak of!

You don't have to agree with me. I'm not arguing. I'm showing you my mind on it, that's all.

So you're led to believe that you could not hear the gospel until God allowed that for you personally and yet the bible shows us clearly that Adam COULD hear the voice of God in the garden and that he understood God's call.. even AFTER his disoedience.. ie, after the fall.. and imo this is representative of all men in Adam.. and we know that He IS that true light which lighteth every man that comes into the world.

You believe otherwise, so yes we'll disagree on that.

 

[Jennie]

I meant argue in the sense of what you're speaking for or against.. not that we're yelling at each other.



So you're led to believe that you could not hear the gospel until God allowed that for you personally and yet the bible shows us clearly that Adam COULD hear the voice of God in the garden and that he understood God's call.. even AFTER his disoedience.. ie, after the fall.. and imo this is representative of all men in Adam.. and we know that He IS that true light which lighteth every man that comes into the world.

You believe otherwise, so yes we'll disagree on that.

Ah..yes, I see unfortunately that we will have to disagree.
For me to meet together with you, I would have to concede that all men are not born blind and for you to meet together with me would mean having to concede that they are.

Lord, why was this man born blind? Was it because of his own sins or was it because of the sins of his parents?

Neither. This man was born blind so that the glory of God could be shown in him!

It has been nice talking to you Eventide!

 

[Sam21]

I believe that God is attempting to speak to all people,they just will not hear. In an after death experience the atheist Howard Storm was shown by angels that God had attempted to communicate with him by music,art, the world, almost everything in creation,he just would not listen. In years past I have drifted from God and actually had God speak to me through worldly music. I feel like screaming at people,God is trying to speak to you,TAKE THE TIME TO LISTEN! There are no special people designed to get saved while the rest are just out of luck, that is absurd,God loves people but He can only save those who will respond to Him.

 

[Eventide]

I believe that God is attempting to speak to all people,they just will not hear. In an after death experience the atheist Howard Storm was shown by angels that God had attempted to communicate with him by music,art, the world, almost everything in creation,he just would not listen. In years past I have drifted from God and actually had God speak to me through worldly music. I feel like screaming at people,God is trying to speak to you,TAKE THE TIME TO LISTEN! There are no special people designed to get saved while the rest are just out of luck, that is absurd,God loves people but He can only save those who will respond to Him.

I think that Calvinism is the only theology which preaches that people can't hear the gospel unless God allows it.

 

[warhorse]

So I guess the knot is...
I have not thought I was created in
HIS image but that Adam was.
But that I was born in ADAM'S deformed image....because it says, and then Adam had a son born in his own image and named him Seth.

It has seemed to me tht when people say we were created in HIS image, it gives them warm, gooey....tender feelings for themselves as if there is anything good in them or as if they are special instead of the deformed and crippled beast that I feel I am. (Or was...)

the bible says that god made you special, he knit you together inside your mothers tummy. But that you were born into sin, as sin is passed thru the seed of man, thats why mary had to be a virgin.

 

[childeye]

I have gotten myself tied up in some knots regarding "free will."
I wonder if anyone has any thoughts that might help me.

Here is what seems to be my problem:
We are all born blind to God. I was born this way, same as everyone else.

So when I hear someone say to another that they have willfully chosen to reject God, it bothers me.

It is like saying....free will is this good thing that we have within our SELVES and we use it to find God. But there is nothing good in us...

I don't THINK I used free will.....
One day, I just suddenly SAW that He WAS.

I guess I am thinking if there is any such thing as free will, it must only come into play AFTER He has cured our blindness...

Any thoughts or verses?

Feewill defined as being able to choose to sin is a misnomer. Since freewill theology claims man's will is free and yet never enslaved, it is only subjective and therefore vanity. Read the scripture John 8:32 in all it's context for the true definition of a freewill.

 

[childeye]

I think that Calvinism is the only theology which preaches that people can't hear the gospel unless God allows it.

Jesus preached it also.