Bible Study Free will

[GodsGrace]

LOL! You have drawn up a desirable but indefensible position here, young lady. I'll, with all my inability, try to move you to what the Holy Spirit has taught me to understand, difficult on the matters of sensible but reasonable, none the less.

Everything God creates is perfect. First let's deal with Satan, Old Evil personified! When Satan was created he was the chief of all the angels in God's service and he was beautiful, he was perfect.

Some scream but this or but this instead of taking this issue to God in prayer, shame on them.

God, One God, three Persons, as we find in the first three chapters of Genesis, wants real love from His Created Beings and if these perfect Angels had no free will they would amount to Spiritual Robots, programed to massage the ego of a God that needs not!

In the Bible, the first 39 books, we learn that one third of these perfect beings massaged their own egos, a possible product of a Free Will, and they followed a being they were more ¿familiar? with, the ¿foreman?

In this same manor, God created Adam, another name for Man. Adam and his sweet lady, both, had the same free will that God has, created in His image. Every person on this earth, Black, White, Yellow or brown. round eyes or slanted eyes are created in the Image Of God, the two things every man and woman on this earth have in common is their Free Will and the truth that their souls will exist for eternity, the image of God.

I pray this helps you as much as it did me.

No Taylor. It doesn't help. Must we go there?

Listen to me. I agree with all of the above. All AOK.

You say God created everything to be perfect. Everything He created was perfect. The bible says it was good. Genesis 1:31 It was VERY good. Our favorite bible the NAS or NASB, as you say (and which is the correct way).

Now, shouldn't a perfect being create everything perfectly?

Next you say "when satan was created". I know that you mean when satan came into being by disobeying God.
Okay.

Now. WHAT made the angel Lucifer disobey God?
God made everything perfectly. There was no imperfection. There was no sin nature. There was no concupiscence. WHY didn't the bad angels listen and obey God? WHAT made them be bad if satan wasn't around yet?

See. I'd rather not go there.

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

Why is this a "problem"? The fact that Adam and Eve and the angels had free wills means that they could choose to obey or disobey, to think evil thoughts or holy thoughts, to rebel or to submit to God.

As to what made Eve eat of the fruit, it was her own lusts -- see Gen 3:6. As to what made Adam eat of the fruit, it was his own disobedience (1 Tim 2:14). They could blame Satan all they wanted, but in the end God held each one of them accountable, just as he holds each one of us accountable.

Where did the lusts and disobedience come from if the sin nature was not in them yet?

 

[Malachi]

Where did the lusts and disobedience come from if the sin nature was not in them yet?

You will have to ask God. In the meantime, move on.

 

[gerbilwoman]

I understand people should have free will, but when it comes to things like murder I wonder why God doesn't interfere.

 

[GodsGrace]

God created Satan and his messengers precisely to be evil and commit evil. So they do what they were made to do. And they do so "in mankind." Which is also why freewill for mankind is a laughable premise. Mark 4:15, Acts 26:18, 2 Cor. 4:4, Eph. 2:2 all serve to show the operations of TWO wills in man. And one of them adverse in the extreme.

Okay. So what you're saying is that we have no real free will because we can only choose between two things: good and evil. You want a third choice?? Again, you say God created satan and his messengers to be evil and commit evil. So you're saying God actually CREATED satan? How could I worship a God that would create an evil force that will make me miserable many times in my life and create havoc in me, others, relationships, nature, and our very relationship with God? That would be just as bad as being a satan worshipper. Almost. He'd be more extreme in evilness. Or maybe not...

Could we take your verses one at a time:
Mark 4:15
The person hears the Word of God but satan immediately takes it away. They're not interested. This doesn't happen to everyone. It's not right to use it as a supporting verse because it's not general in nature.

Acts 26:18
Yes. We are under the dominion of satan until we See The Light and become members of God's family.
There are only two choices as I've said many times. You serve satan or you serve God.

2 Corinthians 4:4
Paul is encouraging believers. This would require some study. The god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving. Satan doesn't want people to see the light of God. He wants to keep us under HIS dominion. This reminds me of...

Ephesians 2:2 Believers formerly walked according to the prince of the power of the air - who is satan. Satan is the prince of this earth - it's not God. This is true and theologically correct. If it were not for the power of God, we'd be living in hell. And satan's spirit is working in the sons of disobedience - non believers, they are functioning in darkness not aware of the dangers around them..

I've done some reading on the belief that we don't really have free will. But it was a little too much for me and a long time ago so I can't speak to that with any amount of intelligence.

You know the analogy of the football game? If God knows how He wants the game to end, how do we have free will?

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

I understand people should have free will, but when it comes to things like murder I wonder why God doesn't interfere.

Murder?
How about children dying of cancer or a myriad of other horrible conditions.
I have a list...

This is the whole point. Why does God not interfere? Why do these things exist?

 

[GodsGrace]

You will have to ask God. In the meantime, move on.

I moved on a long time ago Malachai.
But it sounded there like you thought you had the answer...

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

IF God uses EVIL for good, and evil serves His Purposes and He shows Himself prevailing over it, then there is no harm, no foul. Evil, death and sin will not prevail over God in Christ, period. They will prove to have been His subservient servants in the end and in the final analysis.

Here you say that God USES evil for His good. And that He prevails over it in the end. (this does not mean He created it.)
Please confirm.
I agree with this.

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

Perhaps you are missing the point. My observation, which I believe to be true from the scriptures, is that the will of Satan does operate in our flesh, and this through the avenues of temptation, deception and lusts primarily. And in the end, our flesh DIES precisely because of the will of the tempter, the DESTROYER, operational therein.

I agree. The will of satan does operate in our flesh. This is why we die. Literally.

So, who has the "sin nature" will in that equation? For me this is the will of Satan operational in the flesh. No one's will is able or capable of making the will of the tempter anything other than what the will of the tempter is. And rather than just realizing what is really going on within, everyone ends up beating themselves up OR even worse, excusing or overlooking the obvious other will in the flesh.

Hmmm. You lost me here. Sounds like you're trying to save satan. Of course we're not able to make his will anything other than what his will is. This is too simple - I'm not getting what you mean. WE have the sin nature. The nature that tends to lean toward evil. Evil is satan. We tend to listen to satan. He's a part of our make-up, our DNA.

Not for the tempter, we do not.

The tempter does what the tempter does. All the collective willpower of man will not alter the courses of the tempter operational in the flesh of all.

?? Satan will remain on his course. Our willpower cannot alter that. We can diminish his operation in our flesh with the help of the Holy Spirit.

But none will see this until they take a good hard look at themselves, HONESTLY, and come to see this fact. Additionally, the tempter will not allow it to be seen. Such will only see themselves. Or themselves and the Spirit of Christ. But they will never see the will of the tempter operational in their own hide.

How could you think this? The closer you get to God, the MORE you should feel like a sinner.
A non-believer could steal a million dollars or kill someone and not feel guilty.
If a believer that understands the Sacrifice steals a pen from a store shelf, he should feel VERY guilty.

Only Jesus can lead a disciple into this sight. For others, for most, that door will remain shut and locked tight.

AMEN to that!

Wondering

 

[smaller]

Okay. So what you're saying is that we have no real free will because we can only choose between two things: good and evil.

Choosing one doesn't eliminate the other. We are 'factually' internally comprised of [good and evil.]

It's the LAW:

Romans 7:21
I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

You want a third choice??

Only God has A Perfect Will, and this, above all other wills.

Again, you say God created satan and his messengers to be evil and commit evil. So you're saying God actually CREATED satan?

Of course. There is however a strong false notion in many freewill camps that Satan was once a Holy Angel. Which statement is non-existing in the scriptures.

Yes, God created 'all' powers and evil is a power.

Colossians 1:16
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Habakkuk 2:9
Woe to him that coveteth an evil covetousness to his house, that he may set his nest on high, that he may be delivered from the power of evil!

There are no exceptions to the creation of 'all things' unless a person gets sucked into polytheism/multiple creators or fanciful imaginations about how the power of evil came about.

Or, if people think that because God created evil, therefore He is evil they merely equated God with a created thing. It's a form of pantheism, in reverse.

How could I worship a God that would create an evil force that will make me miserable many times in my life and create havoc in me, others, relationships, nature, and our very relationship with God?

One might perceive that God Is Greater than the sum of "all things" and as such, very worthy.

That would be just as bad as being a satan worshipper. Almost. He'd be more extreme in evilness. Or maybe not...

I'd say an understanding of Divine Superiority over all things settles all the temporal issues entirely. In His Hands there will be A Perfect Outcome. We just don't get to see the surprise package in full til the completion of the exercises.

I might use an analogy that if animal refuse, dirt and seed is used to grow a beautiful flower, and the refuse is used up and the ground is dark and the seed dies and the beauty of the flower results from the uses of all of it, there is absolutely nothing wrong with the refuse, the dirt, the seed or the flower.

This is the meaning of taking "root" downward and producing fruit upward. Evil is in our roots. There is no avoiding it.

2 Kings 19:
30 And the remnant that is escaped of the house of Judah shall yet again take root downward, and bear fruit upward.

Isaiah 37:
31 And the remnant that is escaped of the house of Judah shall again take root downward, and bear fruit upward:

Luke 13
6 He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.
7 Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?
8 And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:
9 And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.

When we are not honest about having defiling evil thoughts, we are dishonest. We do NOT bear the simple fruit of honesty. We are barren of TRUTH. We bear LIES instead. Such are worthless trees, bearing no fruit.

Could we take your verses one at a time:
Mark 4:15
The person hears the Word of God but satan immediately takes it away. They're not interested.

I'm not interested in your slur of the person and the blatant overlooking of the THIEF in that equation. Let's take The Word for what HE says about it and recognize it's a hard fact.

Satan "enters" every persons heart. That is all that needs to be seen. And this principle fact is shown in many places in the N.T. Acts 28:16, 2 Cor. 4:4 and Eph. 2:2 come instantly to verify this hard line fact.

And as such, THERE is evil present within man. IN the form of the tempter, the thief, the destroyer, the wicked one. See BOTH parties? Or still seeing just the person? Seeing just the person is spiritual blindness imposed by Satan on that person's mind.

This doesn't happen to everyone. It's not right to use it as a supporting verse because it's not general in nature.

Yes, it does happen to EVERY person. See the supporting scriptures above. There are many more, if needed. Like "all" people are sinners and sin being of the devil. 1 John 3:8. This links the devil, the tempter to "every sin" and likewise, every sinner.

And this fact demands that both parties are seen in these equations and one of the parties happens to be EVIL.

Acts 26:18
Yes. We are under the dominion of satan until we See The Light and become members of God's family.
There are only two choices as I've said many times. You serve satan or you serve God.

You have zero accounting for the other party. Zero. But that is very very typical of people who don't read or understand the "fine print." There is a reason they miss the obvious. It's not just "them" reading. The thief of Word remains IN PLAY.

You know the analogy of the football game? If God knows how He wants the game to end, how do we have free will?

Wondering

We don't. It's a logical fallacy that fails to see there is only One Will that can be considered truly free and it's NOT OURS.

Technically we DIED when we called upon Jesus to save us.

Colossians 3:3
For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

 

[JohnDB]

John,
I'm not at all sure of your intent here.

What I am saying here is exactly what I am intending.

But you have two camps here twisting God's word to make it say what they wish it to say instead of understanding that English is the poorest receptor language for the Biblical languages there ever was.

In one camp we have the "Devil made me do it" and we have three wills at work within us. and in the other we have the "Total Depravity of man" from the TULIP crowd.

The truth is something different than either camp.

The truth comes from two sections of scripture which I will explain.
One is in Genesis and the other a combination of what Jesus said and what the writer of Hebrews said.

In Genesis we see that everything reproduces after their own kind and seed...the key word here being seed...which also has a double entendre with son.

Now for the first principle which is a LAW...God is always good; God cannot be bad because He is too busy being good. God cannot create evil because God cannot create error.
So....God did not create Shawtawn or commonly said as Satan which is the "americanized" version of opposition to God. (literally) Mankind with his free will did that all by himself. But the problem with that error is it is viral in nature with our psyche. We were infected before we were even born or knew anything about right and wrong. We reproduced ourselves after our own infected selves and were sinful...after our parents who were also sinful. BUT...we always wish to do the right thing...and we can IF...and that is a really big IF we remember and pay attention to what God has told us and said for us to do and not to do...which we really suck at because we wish God had said any number of things other than what He really said or intimated for us to do or not do.

According to the writer of Hebrews Jesus was the "Second Adam"...and of course Jesus said that He was the Son/Seed of Man. (Take a gander at Galatians 3:16 for clarity) Jesus said also to drink his blood and eat his flesh...meaning that just as sin infected all of mankind from eating the fruit of the tree that they weren't supposed to that now we can be infected with Jesus if we internalize him in the same fashion as Adam and Eve internalized that fruit.

Now also...
Genesis never records it being Satan that talked to Adam and Eve.
It was a serpent...which was"the most cunning, wise, crafty" of all the creatures. OK...history lesson time. In Egypt (where the Hebrew slaves had been living for 400 years and had recently left at the time of the writing of the Torah) the serpent was a symbol of man's wisdom...much in the same fashion as we think of the owl being a symbol of wisdom today. No...of course no one thought that snakes could talk...and neither did any of the Hebrews. But what they did think was that Eve's own wisdom (and Adam's who was right there with her) was that if they ate the fruit they could "have more" which is always a mistake.

We still have a sin nature...inherited from our birth parents or adoptive parents...and some have been lucky enough that their parents took them to church since they were children and wise enough to make them learn scriptures. But, as obviously displayed in this thread, people's pet theologies take precedent over examining closely what God has said and intended...add in a healthy dose of syncretism and viola...a whole new pet theology takes shape and we see that "its someone elses fault"...aka blame shifting...or blame minimizing. (I couldn't help it).
The real truth is that our choices are huge in effect either good or bad.

 

[smaller]

I agree. The will of satan does operate in our flesh. This is why we die. Literally.

Brilliant conclusion. Pretty easy to see "evil present" in that as well. Romans 7:21, 2 Cor. 12:7, applied to Paul, personally. This is also confirmed by Romans 9:18-24, Romans 11:8, 1 Tim. 1:15 and 2 Tim. 2:20-21 for kickers.

Hmmm. You lost me here. Sounds like you're trying to save satan.

Where in the world did you get that idea?! I've never made such a claim. Only and ever the opposite, and that by Word citings showing it to be so.

Of course we're not able to make his will anything other than what his will is. This is too simple - I'm not getting what you mean. WE have the sin nature. The nature that tends to lean toward evil. Evil is satan. We tend to listen to satan. He's a part of our make-up, our DNA.

The flesh is not evil. Nor is our DNA. Satan and his messengers are wicked evil anti-Christ spirits that have access to the flesh via the avenues of temptations, deceptions, lusts and various forms of wickedness in our MINDS and HEARTS. This is also why freewill is a joke of massive proportions.

?? Satan will remain on his course. Our willpower cannot alter that. We can diminish his operation in our flesh with the help of the Holy Spirit.

Containment is the best we are offered. Our flesh remains contrary to the Spirit in any case of sights, regardless. Gal. 5:17. And it is so because "evil" is present with us, the same as it was with Paul. Romans 7:21.

How could you think this? The closer you get to God, the MORE you should feel like a sinner.

Never said otherwise. Paul said "I am" the chief of sinners. That statement was made well AFTER salvation, present tense, "I am" not was. 1 Tim. 1:15. IF we perceive that Paul is directing us to observe that we DO engage the tempter internally, then it is easy to see "how" Paul made this conclusion because he is not just using himself as a freestanding individual to make that statement. The tempter IS the chief sinner and this chief singled out (and probably still does single out) Apostles in particular for internal war. Paul brings the facts to the table and sees the tempter/temptations in his own equations in the flesh. Gal. 4:14

A non-believer could steal a million dollars or kill someone and not feel guilty.
If a believer that understands the Sacrifice steals a pen from a store shelf, he should feel VERY guilty.

They may do themselves well to understand the "working and worker" behind every sin. This is what the scripture teaches us. To DIVIDE from that working and worker.

There is no division available or attainable by lying about it or falling into hypocrisy over the facts of evil's presence, being a factual present tense sinner or "our sin" being of the devil. On all these counts freewill remains a joke. Every last one of us bears that which is CONTRARY to the SPIRIT. Gal. 5:17.

We may be free when we see the DIVIDE. But that freedom is not extended to liars and hypocrites OR our contrary FLESH with a seeming mind of it's own. Romans 7:17-20

 

[GodsGrace]

Brilliant conclusion. Pretty easy to see "evil present" in that as well. Romans 7:21, 2 Cor. 12:7, applied to Paul, personally. This is also confirmed by Romans 9:18-24, Romans 11:8, 1 Tim. 1:15 and 2 Tim. 2:20-21 for kickers.

Where in the world did you get that idea?! I've never made such a claim. Only and ever the opposite, and that by Word citings showing it to be so.

The flesh is not evil. Nor is our DNA. Satan and his messengers are wicked evil anti-Christ spirits that have access to the flesh via the avenues of temptations, deceptions, lusts and various forms of wickedness in our MINDS and HEARTS. This is also why freewill is a joke of massive proportions.

Containment is the best we are offered. Our flesh remains contrary to the Spirit in any case of sights, regardless. Gal. 5:17. And it is so because "evil" is present with us, the same as it was with Paul. Romans 7:21.

Never said otherwise. Paul said "I am" the chief of sinners. That statement was made well AFTER salvation, present tense, "I am" not was. 1 Tim. 1:15. IF we perceive that Paul is directing us to observe that we DO engage the tempter internally, then it is easy to see "how" Paul made this conclusion because he is not just using himself as a freestanding individual to make that statement. The tempter IS the chief sinner and this chief singled out (and probably still does single out) Apostles in particular for internal war. Paul brings the facts to the table and sees the tempter/temptations in his own equations in the flesh. Gal. 4:14

They may do themselves well to understand the "working and worker" behind every sin. This is what the scripture teaches us. To DIVIDE from that working and worker.

There is no division available or attainable by lying about it or falling into hypocrisy over the facts of evil's presence, being a factual present tense sinner or "our sin" being of the devil. On all these counts freewill remains a joke. Every last one of us bears that which is CONTRARY to the SPIRIT. Gal. 5:17.

We may be free when we see the DIVIDE. But that freedom is not extended to liars and hypocrites OR our contrary FLESH with a seeming mind of it's own. Romans 7:17-20

Containment is the best we are offered. Okay. I'm good with that.
Will be mulling over re the flowers being planted and the seeds and water and all that.
Let me say this. I understand about the sin nature that is in us. I understand that Jesus died so it could not have dominion over us. I think it's still there - I don't think it's dead. Some here understand this to mean that the devil made me do it. Whatever. That's for them to figure out why they sin.

Then we have this idea that God sends us trials to make us stronger. I believe trials make us stronger, but God sends them? He, God, can't figure out a better way to make me learn something? Then we get the Father analogy. But my father is human - surely God could think up a better way.

So many ideas for something we'd like to know but can't get an answer that satisfies.

When I met the Lord 40 years ago, I thought I had everything all figured out. God did the good and satan did the bad. Boy, I was in 7th heaven, thinking I had all the answers, for about 10 years or so. Then one day I realized that God ALLOWS evil to exist. Oh boy. Back to the drawing board. I've become good friends with that drawing board. I visit it every now and then.

I'm going to think on your flower analogy, but I know already that if I see a dying child, it'll be very difficult for me to imagine that God created the evil that's causing his pain and suffering. I'm not sure this is the same as allowing it, but at least I have a sliver of hope in a good God. I think this is why you lose me at some point along the way, although I do agree with you on a lot.

Some say that our free will choices create the bad. This is the position I can't agree with at all. That would make US be God.

Wondering

 

[Hospes]

If you start a thread, I'll be there - but let me know.

FYI: started a thread in Apologetics & Theology

 

[th1b.taylor]

No Taylor. It doesn't help. Must we go there?

Listen to me. I agree with all of the above. All AOK.

You say God created everything to be perfect. Everything He created was perfect. The bible says it was good. Genesis 1:31 It was VERY good. Our favorite bible the NAS or NASB, as you say (and which is the correct way).

Now, shouldn't a perfect being create everything perfectly?

Next you say "when satan was created". I know that you mean when satan came into being by disobeying God.
Okay.

Now. WHAT made the angel Lucifer disobey God?
God made everything perfectly. There was no imperfection. There was no sin nature. There was no concupiscence. WHY didn't the bad angels listen and obey God? WHAT made them be bad if satan wasn't around yet?

See. I'd rather not go there.

Wondering

You don't have to and your right, I misstated because Satan was Lucifer when he sinned and God renamed him. But perfect beings are like unto God and have a free will that gives them the option to choose a trait without which there can never be love, the one thing we all need to return, in full, to our LORD.

 

[th1b.taylor]

The truth is something different than either camp.

I will not try for I cannot argue with with this, it is true. That is why I have never fallen into any of the major camps and will die professing to be a Biblicist. The Biblicists are not organized and we don't, to my knowlege, want organization. Most I'v met like myself are still in tutoring and who wants a group of loud mouthed students to organize anyway?

God bless brother.

 

[GodsGrace]

You don't have to and your right, I misstated because Satan was Lucifer when he sinned and God renamed him. But perfect beings are like unto God and have a free will that gives them the option to choose a trait without which there can never be love, the one thing we all need to return, in full, to our LORD.

AMEN to that!

Wondering

 

[gerbilwoman]

Murder?
How about children dying of cancer or a myriad of other horrible conditions.
I have a list...

This is the whole point. Why does God not interfere? Why do these things exist?

I have a whole list too, was just using murder as an example.

 

[smaller]

Containment is the best we are offered. Okay. I'm good with that.
Will be mulling over re the flowers being planted and the seeds and water and all that.
Let me say this. I understand about the sin nature that is in us. I understand that Jesus died so it could not have dominion over us. I think it's still there - I don't think it's dead.

All true above. Very good.

Some here understand this to mean that the devil made me do it. Whatever. That's for them to figure out why they sin.

I object to that sight. The devil sins. That sin transpires in the flesh. So, who sinned? The devil didn't make anyone do anything. The devil does what the devil does, and that is SIN. 1 John 3:8.

Then we have this idea that God sends us trials to make us stronger. I believe trials make us stronger, but God sends them? He, God, can't figure out a better way to make me learn something? Then we get the Father analogy. But my father is human - surely God could think up a better way.

God in Christ always and only Loves Us Eternally. And conversely, God works against the devil and his messengers. Both of these activities of God transpire with each of us. But one action is meant for us, and the other party differently. The same Word that blesses us provokes the devil to resist. This is how we are all put together. The battles transpire within us. It's good to know that we are not our own enemy, even though we carry that enemy in our flesh in the forms of temptations, lusts, deceptions and eventually our body dies because of this. But that is exactly what was always meant to happen. Gods children are NOT slated to have a flesh body, but A Spiritual Body. The Spiritual Body is currently planted in the natural. We will have our promised CHANGE. Phil. 3:21

So many ideas for something we'd like to know but can't get an answer that satisfies.

When I met the Lord 40 years ago, I thought I had everything all figured out. God did the good and satan did the bad. Boy, I was in 7th heaven, thinking I had all the answers, for about 10 years or so. Then one day I realized that God ALLOWS evil to exist. Oh boy. Back to the drawing board. I've become good friends with that drawing board. I visit it every now and then.

We are to "test" all things. It's a good exercise. One of the first things we might submit to is what Paul himself submitted to, that none of us see in full or perfectly. That doesn't mean we stop trying or stop pressing for our Perfection, which Is Him. I expect to someday wake up, PERFECT.

1 John 3:2
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

I continually look for Jesus' Perfection. Not my own. Not my own (non-existing imperfect) freewill.

I'm going to think on your flower analogy, but I know already that if I see a dying child, it'll be very difficult for me to imagine that God created the evil that's causing his pain and suffering.

It does not bother God in Christ one little bit to harvest the flesh body in death and make Permanent Change to a Spiritual Body in Him. Death is just an instrument to harvest us out of our present state. I actually look forward to that day...of course my flesh doesn't care to hear that, but I really don't care what it has to say. The serpent can have this dust shell, his habitation blowing in the wind.

 

[GodsGrace]

All true above. Very good.

I'd say we agree with a lot. God speaks to us and tells us things we need to know, things we need to understand. I think each one of us needs different information so we could function. So we could understand Him and be closer in our walk. Maybe this is why we each believe, basically, the same concepts an doctrine of faith, but then have our own little nuances that other people can't quite understand. Maybe this falls under personal revelation.

I object to that sight. The devil sins. That sin transpires in the flesh. So, who sinned? The devil didn't make anyone do anything. The devil does what the devil does, and that is SIN. 1 John 3:8.

I object to that sight too.

God in Christ always and only Loves Us Eternally. And conversely, God works against the devil and his messengers. Both of these activities of God transpire with each of us. But one action is meant for us, and the other party differently. The same Word that blesses us provokes the devil to resist. This is how we are all put together. The battles transpire within us. It's good to know that we are not our own enemy, even though we carry that enemy in our flesh in the forms of temptations, lusts, deceptions and eventually our body dies because of this. But that is exactly what was always meant to happen. Gods children are NOT slated to have a flesh body, but A Spiritual Body. The Spiritual Body is currently planted in the natural. We will have our promised CHANGE. Phil. 3:21

What do you mean by:
The same Word that blesses us provokes the devil to resist.

I agree with all the rest. Of course, you're last two sentences beg the question: WHAT exactly are we doing here? Why don't we have our spiritual body from the beginning??

We are to "test" all things. It's a good exercise. One of the first things we might submit to is what Paul himself submitted to, that none of us see in full or perfectly. That doesn't mean we stop trying or stop pressing for our Perfection, which Is Him. I expect to someday wake up, PERFECT.

1 John 3:2
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

I continually look for Jesus' Perfection. Not my own. Not my own (non-existing imperfect) freewill.

To wake up perfect. Okay. I look forward to that too.
But Jesus said to be perfect now also. Mathew 5:48
Are you talking also about this present, now, trying to be perfect?
And in your last sentence, you're seeking God's will?
Seems almost too easy and you must mean something else - you're such a deep thinker!

It does not bother God in Christ one little bit to harvest the flesh body in death and make Permanent Change to a Spiritual Body in Him. Death is just an instrument to harvest us out of our present state. I actually look forward to that day...of course my flesh doesn't care to hear that, but I really don't care what it has to say. The serpent can have this dust shell, his habitation blowing in the wind.

John 4:14 We thirst for Christ.

Wondering