Freewill religion is the Man of Sin !

[Grazer]

I know I put this elsewhere but I think its relevant here too:

God chose me but I had a choice whether to respond, whether to accept the gift that was on offer. This doesn't mean I saved myself or had to earn my salvation but love is only meaningful if it is freely given, not forced or controlled in anyway. I could have said no.

 

[savedbygrace57]

grazer

God chose me but I had a choice whether to respond, whether to accept the gift
that was on offer.

This doesn't mean I saved myself

Yes it does. you would not have been saved otherwise right ? If you did not do something, in your own words accept or respond ! So you saved yourself, congratulations !

 

[Grazer]

grazer






Yes it does. you would not have been saved otherwise right ? If you did not do something, in your own words accept or respond ! So you saved yourself, congratulations !

That's like saying when I'm stuck in a river and someone throws something for me to grab onto and pulls me out, they didn't save me I saved myself!! It doesn't make any sense.

 

[Mike S]

That's like saying when I'm stuck in a river and someone throws something for me to grab onto and pulls me out, they didn't save me I saved myself!! It doesn't make any sense.

Yes, for you to grab. That's an act of free will.

 

[Grazer]

Yes, for you to grab. That's an act of free will.

Yes, I chose to grab to the line. It doesn't mean by doing so I saved myself, I was saved by the guy on the bank throwing the line and pulling me out.

 

[Mike S]

Yes, I chose to grab to the line. It doesn't mean by doing so I saved myself, I was saved by the guy on the bank throwing the line and pulling me out.

I think you're misunderstanding what free will means. You and I are saved by Grace, not through our own efforts, but by accepting God's offer of salvation. You can choice, of your own free will to refuse God's Grace, just as you can refuse to accept an offer for help when you're in the river.

 

[Grazer]

I think you're misunderstanding what free will means. You and I are saved by Grace, not through our own efforts, but by accepting God's offer of salvation. You can choice, of your own free will to refuse God's Grace, just as you can refuse to accept an offer for help when you're in the river.

That's pretty much the point I'm trying to make but probably not being clear. You've put it much better than me :yes

 

[savedbygrace57]

That's like saying when I'm stuck in a river and someone throws something for me to grab onto and pulls me out, they didn't save me I saved myself!! It doesn't make any sense.

Does not matter how you spin it, you are saying that you were not saved until you did something, hence you are your saviour ! You believe in a work salvation, which is contrary to scripture. Eph 2:8-9

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

 

[Grazer]

Does not matter how you spin it, you are saying that you were not saved until you did something, hence you are your saviour ! You believe in a work salvation, which is contrary to scripture. Eph 2:8-9

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

So you didn't accept Christ into your life by your own choice/free will, God forced himself on you? He forced you to accept him? So God has already decided who will be saved and who is condemned? The ones not chosen are just unlucky?

The grace of God is a gift that is on offer to everyone, we have done nothing to earn it. That to me is what the passage you have quoted is saying. Please don't presume to tell me what I believe based on your mis-understanding of the point being made.

 

[Grazer]

 

[WIP]

Does not matter how you spin it, you are saying that you were not saved until you did something,

I love Him because He first loved me.

 

[savedbygrace57]

I love Him because He first loved me.

I never asked you that !

 

[savedbygrace57]

graze

So you didn't accept Christ into your life by your own choice/free will, God

forced himself on you? He forced you to accept him? So God has already
decided
who will be saved and who is condemned? The ones not chosen are just

unlucky?

You say you are saved by something you did, so your testimony is against the scripture teaching of Salvation by Grace through faith, not of works !

Eph 2:8-9

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

You teach salvation by works !

 

[Grazer]

I never asked you that !

But it's part of the point though isn't it? Christ loves us, we love Christ and what is love if it is not freely given and received?

 

[Grazer]

graze



You say you are saved by something you did, so your testimony is against the scripture teaching of Salvation by Grace through faith, not of works !

Eph 2:8-9

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

You teach salvation by works !

You look at virtually any testimony given and it will include accepting Christ into their lives. I "teach" accepting the gift on offer by God. I have said "I have done nothing to deserve this gift of grace, can do nothing to earn this gift of grace" As I said, that is what I think this passage refers to, especially in light of the very next verse:

For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

I note you haven't answered any of my questions.

 

[savedbygrace57]

grazer

You look at virtually any testimony given and it will include accepting
Christ into their lives

And thats works ! If you did something to get saved, you believe in salvation by your works, your efforts. You admit that if it was not for you reaching out and grabbing the rope, you would not have been saved ! If you would not have done that, your saviour would have just had to let that get away !

 

[Grazer]

grazer



And thats works ! If you did something to get saved, you believe in salvation by your works, your efforts. You admit that if it was not for you reaching out and grabbing the rope, you would not have been saved ! If you would not have done that, your saviour would have just had to let that get away !

Accepting = choice = free will. That's why some people are atheists, that have not accepted Christ into their lives. I think Mark put it brilliantly on here;

I think you're misunderstanding what free will means. You and I are saved by Grace, not through our own efforts, but by accepting God's offer of salvation. You can choice, of your own free will to refuse God's Grace, just as you can refuse to accept an offer for help when you're in the river.

savedbygrace - Are you going to answer my questions?

So you didn't accept Christ into your life by your own choice/free will, God forced himself on you? He forced you to accept him? So God has already decided who will be saved and who is condemned? The ones not chosen are just unlucky?

 

[Eventide]

Evidently he just woke up one day and had Christ in him for no apparent reason...

It amazes me that people actually argue for this as if it's reality..

Silly isn't it ?

 

[Mike S]

Accepting = choice = free will. That's why some people are atheists, that have not accepted Christ into their lives. I think Mark put it brilliantly on here;



savedbygrace - Are you going to answer my questions?

So you didn't accept Christ into your life by your own choice/free will, God forced himself on you? He forced you to accept him? So God has already decided who will be saved and who is condemned? The ones not chosen are just unlucky?

You're right on this, it's a theology that has never made sense to me. It seems very Gnostic, and we all know Gnostic beliefs are constantly on the margins of Christian theology.

But, it still seems to me to be not much more than an interesting bit of theology to think about. How would the answer change how anyone lives his Christian life? Don't we all live as if we do have free will anyway, regardless if we have it or not?

 

[cupid dave]

This is why I believe this is True !

2 Thess 2:1-4

1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Isa 14:13-14

13For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:


I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

Man's own freewill by far is the most believed and popular religious conviction throughout the whole world. Rev 13:1;5-8

1And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

5And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

6And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

7And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

It's adherents are linked to all the various denominations, and sects, yes, even the non religious adhere to man's freewill.

So John writes Rev 13:16

And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

That is all follow this deadly concept or philosophy of man's freewill !

nah...

The false prophet is Muhammed, and different than the "beast rising up out of the land [itself]; he had two horns like a lamb."





Dan 7:8 I considered the (ten) horns, and, behold, there came up, (in622AD), among them (an eleventh), another little horn, (Islam), before whom there were, (had been), three of the first (10) horns, (Undivided Empire: Diocletian:[305AD]; Western Roman Empire: [to 476 AD]; Eastern Roman: Byzantine Empire,[to 1453 AD]), and plucked up by the roots (the EasternRoman Orthodox Christian Byzantine Empire at the hands of this Ottoman Empire):and, behold, in this horn were eyes likethe eyes of man, (beginning with the great seer, the Prophet Mohammed), and a mouth, (The Koran), speakinggreat things: [Rev 13:6].