Freewill religion is the Man of Sin !

[John O]

john



You said man must respond before he gets saved. If that is True, then you teach salvation by your works !

I said that it is the only reasonable action that a man can do to the grace of God. Salvation is from God only but to love Him back is a requirement of man towards God. Seems the least he can do for such a free gift.

John O

 

[savedbygrace57]

johno

I said that it is the only reasonable action that a man can do to the grace
of God.

Action :

the process or state of acting or of being active: The machine is not in action now.
2. something done or performed; act; deed.

an act that one consciously wills and that may be characterized by physical or mental activity

Now the word works as in Eph 2:9

Not of works, lest any man should boast.

It is the greek word ergon which means:

business, employment, that which any one is occupied

a) that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking

2) any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind

3) an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work

So you teach that one is saved because of their work !

You teach against Salvation by Grace through Faith, not of works Eph 2:8-9

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

I would have to classify you as an False Teacher because you teach against what the Bible says !

 

[John O]

johno



Action :

the process or state of acting or of being active: The machine is not in action now.
2. something done or performed; act; deed.

an act that one consciously wills and that may be characterized by physical or mental activity

Now the word works as in Eph 2:9

Not of works, lest any man should boast.

It is the greek word ergon which means:

business, employment, that which any one is occupied

a) that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking

2) any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind

3) an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work

So you teach that one is saved because of their work !

You teach against Salvation by Grace through Faith, not of works Eph 2:8-9

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

I would have to classify you as an False Teacher because you teach against what the Bible says !

Actually I teach what the Bible says you disagree with me on the area of whether to respond to the grace of God is considered of man or of God. I argue that it is the only logical attitude of man to the grace of God. Faith without works is dead, works without faith is dead. Works are a response in faith to the grace of God.

No amount of works will bring salvation. Works done in faith please God Heb 11:6

John O

 

[savedbygrace57]

johno

Actually I teach what the Bible says

No you do not . You teach salvation by works, by something man does. Like responding. Who does the responding ?

 

[John O]

johno



No you do not . You teach salvation by works, by something man does. Like responding. Who does the responding ?

I have used the term "responded" in previous posts but on reflection a more accurate term would be "to declare" which is that once salvation has been received (of and by God only) we in acknowledgement of what God has done for us declare that salvation has come to us not of ourselves but of God.


John O

 

[savedbygrace57]

john

which is that once salvation has been received

Recceiving, like responding is something man does, a work ! The word receive means:

to take into one's possession (something offered or delivered): to receive many gifts.

Now if I offer something to you, does it not require an effort from you to take it ? Yes or No ?

If yes, then its a work of yours !

 

[Elijah674]

john



Recceiving, like responding is something man does, a work ! The word receive means:

to take into one's possession (something offered or delivered): to receive many gifts.

Now if I offer something to you, does it not require an effort from you to take it ? Yes or No ?

If yes, then its a work of yours !

Hi John, are you here or there too?;)
Here is a verse seen in Titus 3:9-11, tell me who it is that just cannot be kept from being vain? Or which is the heretick? Or if one can not have any FREE WILL seen there??? And perhaps the once or twice word might even be seen as 2 Cor. 4:2's 'freewill religeon is the man of sin' with the twistings of the Lords Word as well? What do you think?

--Elijah

Titus 3
[9] But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.
[10] A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;
[11] Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

 

[John O]

Hi John, are you here or there too?;)
Here is a verse seen in Titus 3:9-11, tell me who it is that just cannot be kept from being vain? Or which is the heretick? Or if one can not have any FREE WILL seen there??? And perhaps the once or twice word might even be seen as 2 Cor. 4:2's 'freewill religeon is the man of sin' with the twistings of the Lords Word as well? What do you think?

--Elijah

Titus 3
[9] But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.
[10] A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;
[11] Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

So based on your ridiculous argument please enlighten me as to how a person can know they are saved?

John O

 

[savedbygrace57]

John 12:32 is True !


John 12:32

32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

If here, the conjunction ean, should be translated when or since I am going to be Lifted up, for the if should not denote a possibility but a certainty of Him being lifted up [On the Cross], for that had been determined by God Acts 2:23

23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified[Lifted up] and slain:

Lk 22:22

And truly the Son of man goeth, as it was determined: but woe unto that man by whom he is betrayed!

Now what does Jesus mean by His utterance in Jn 12:32 ? Jesus is speaking of it's efficacious results, that is the results of His Death or having been lifted up, and the results are , that all for whom He was lifted up in the behalf of, it will cause them to come to Him in Faith ! Ps 65:4

Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple.

The word here approach means:

to come near, approach, enter into, draw near

a) (Qal) to approach, draw near

b) (Niphal) to be brought near

c) (Piel) to cause to approach, bring near, cause to draw near

d) (Hiphil) to bring near, bring, present

Yes it also means to bring, remember Jesus words Jn 10:16

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

The word bring here is the greek word ago and means:

to move, impel: of forces and influences on the mind

Now back to Jesus words in Jn 12:32, the word draw, what does it mean ? Its the greek word helkō and means:


to draw, drag off

2) metaph., to draw by inward power, lead, impel

You see the word impel here also, its a bringing by an inward power, that leads those that Christ was lifted up in behalf of , He is bringing them to Himself as stated He must do in Jn 10:16, which also says they which He must bring also shall hear His Voice ! Now, what is the Result of Hearing His Voice ? Rom 10:17

So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Faith, that is the end result of Hearing the Word of God ! The word for word here is rhema and means:

that which is or has been uttered by the living voice, thing spoken, word

So the Word here is the Living Voice of their Shepherd heard through the preach Gospel to them , which produces Faith ! Thats why I said that the end results of Christ's being Lifted up for those He was lifted up in behalf of, was that they shall be brought to believe in Him by Faith ! Now those of us who deny this, we have serious problems, and we are attempting by our unbelief to make Jesus out of a Liar !

 

[John O]

John 12:32 is True !


John 12:32

32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

If here, the conjunction ean, should be translated when or since I am going to be Lifted up, for the if should not denote a possibility but a certainty of Him being lifted up [On the Cross], for that had been determined by God Acts 2:23

23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified[Lifted up] and slain:

Lk 22:22

And truly the Son of man goeth, as it was determined: but woe unto that man by whom he is betrayed!

Now what does Jesus mean by His utterance in Jn 12:32 ? Jesus is speaking of it's efficacious results, that is the results of His Death or having been lifted up, and the results are , that all for whom He was lifted up in the behalf of, it will cause them to come to Him in Faith ! Ps 65:4

Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple.

The word here approach means:

to come near, approach, enter into, draw near

a) (Qal) to approach, draw near

b) (Niphal) to be brought near

c) (Piel) to cause to approach, bring near, cause to draw near

d) (Hiphil) to bring near, bring, present

Yes it also means to bring, remember Jesus words Jn 10:16

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

The word bring here is the greek word ago and means:

to move, impel: of forces and influences on the mind

Now back to Jesus words in Jn 12:32, the word draw, what does it mean ? Its the greek word helkō and means:


to draw, drag off

2) metaph., to draw by inward power, lead, impel

You see the word impel here also, its a bringing by an inward power, that leads those that Christ was lifted up in behalf of , He is bringing them to Himself as stated He must do in Jn 10:16, which also says they which He must bring also shall hear His Voice ! Now, what is the Result of Hearing His Voice ? Rom 10:17

So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Faith, that is the end result of Hearing the Word of God ! The word for word here is rhema and means:

that which is or has been uttered by the living voice, thing spoken, word

So the Word here is the Living Voice of their Shepherd heard through the preach Gospel to them , which produces Faith ! Thats why I said that the end results of Christ's being Lifted up for those He was lifted up in behalf of, was that they shall be brought to believe in Him by Faith ! Now those of us who deny this, we have serious problems, and we are attempting by our unbelief to make Jesus out of a Liar !

You have answered what faith is and what and how Jesus has saved us -No problem with any of that but you actually didn't answer the question. How does a person know they are saved based upon your understanding?

John O

 

[savedbygrace57]

johno

How does a person know they are saved based upon your
understanding?

I have delt with issues like that in another thread.

http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=31101&highlight=

Other than that deal with each point of post 529

 

[John O]

johno



I have delt with issues like that in another thread.

http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=31101&highlight=

Other than that deal with each point of post 529

So the Word here is the Living Voice of their Shepherd heard through those that preach the Gospel to them , which produces Faith !

This is where I get confused [highlight words] with your thinking by your own definition isn't this works.
Thats why I said that the end results of Christ's being Lifted up for those He was lifted up in behalf of, was that they shall be brought to believe in Him by Faith ! Now those of us who deny this, we have serious problems, and we are attempting by our unbelief to make Jesus out of a Liar !


I look forward to your reply.

John O

 

[savedbygrace57]

So the Word here is the Living Voice of their Shepherd heard through those that preach the Gospel to them , which produces Faith !

This is where I get confused [highlight words] with your thinking by your own definition isn't this works.
Thats why I said that the end results of Christ's being Lifted up for those He was lifted up in behalf of, was that they shall be brought to believe in Him by Faith ! Now those of us who deny this, we have serious problems, and we are attempting by our unbelief to make Jesus out of a Liar !


I look forward to your reply.

John O

I have nothing else for you, you cannot understand what I have already stated ! but know this, if you or myself teach that one is saved because of the something they did, then that is salvation by their works !

 

[John O]

I am forever thankful that my God has reached out and redeemed a sinner like me. Words will never be able to adequately describe how I feel but this I know just as He gave me the opportunity to be saved He has made available to all this same opportunity.

It matters not what others think on the actual process of being saved whether salvation which happened in a twinkling of eye translating me from death to life all I know is that this grace demanded a response of thanksgiving. My whole being rejoices in the grace and mercy shown by God and if to some this is works then I acknowledge I am guilty but to me it is the only possible response I could give being that of declaring what Jesus has done for me.

John O

PS I wish all would have what I have because it makes life worth living.

 

[savedbygrace57]

John 12:32 is True ! cont

Jesus is saying, all for whom He dies [be lifted up] He draws them to Himself and consequently they become His Followers. Lets understand something right now, the drawing Christ speaks of here and that if the Father Jn 6:44-45 is the New Birth. This drawing is not a mere external call to a choice or decision, but an inward impelling responding to the effectual call of the Gospel. This is that Newly Created Man, Begotten Again by the Resurrection of Christ from the dead 1 Pet 1:3, beginning his new life unto God. The drawing here is not the dragging of sinners dead in trespasses and sins, and at enmity with God, and being forced against their freewill, they kicking and screaming against it, but it is the willing submission of a person newly formed by His Power Ps 110:3

Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

They believe according to God's Power Eph 1:19

19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,

They will be willing to follow Christ and serve Him because they are His Spiritual Seed Ps 22:30

A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.

 

[John O]

John 12:32 is True ! cont

Jesus is saying, all for whom He dies [be lifted up] He draws them to Himself and consequently they become His Followers. Lets understand something right now, the drawing Christ speaks of here and that if the Father Jn 6:44-45 is the New Birth. This drawing is not a mere external call to a choice or decision, but an inward impelling responding to the effectual call of the Gospel. This is that Newly Created Man, Begotten Again by the Resurrection of Christ from the dead 1 Pet 1:3, beginning his new life unto God. The drawing here is not the dragging of sinners dead in trespasses and sins, and at enmity with God, and being forced against their freewill, they kicking and screaming against it, but it is the willing submission of a person newly formed by His Power Ps 110:3

Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

They believe according to God's Power Eph 1:19

19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,

They will be willing to follow Christ and serve Him because they are His Spiritual Seed Ps 22:30

A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.

Have read what you just written because it is very well said and I highlight a section for you>

The drawing here is not the dragging of sinners dead in trespasses and sins, and at enmity with God, and being forced against their freewill, they kicking and screaming against it, but it is the willing submission of a person newly formed by His Power Ps 110:3

Is not our God fantastic that His love demands such a powerful response in those who call upon His name.

John O

 

[savedbygrace57]

John 12:32 is True ! cont -


Thats who Christ's means when He says He will draw all to Him if He be lifted up, His Seed, from among the jews and gentiles. Also what He means here Jn 12:26

26 If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.

Now who are those that serve Him ? Its His Seed Ps 22:30

30 A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.

They because He was Lifted up, shall serve Him and Follow Him. The only ones who hate their lives in this world as Per Jn 12:25 are those who have been born again of incorruptible seed. The Natural Man cannot but Love his own life, over the life of God which he is alienated from, for yielding to the serpents temptation proved that and so the fall. For eve was captured by the three things that constitutes love of self and the world 1 Jn 2:15-17, which are

15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

These things were present in eve at the time of her temptation see Gen 3:6- For she saw that the Tree was good for food [lust of the flesh], the Lust of the eyes [ The Tree was pleasent to the eyes], and the Pride of Life [desired to be wiser than what God made her], and all this proves that the Natural man even before the fall, that the Love of God was not in us ! But alas, the proud freewillers and God haters, do believe man has the freewill ability to do what God requires for discipleship Jn 12:25 and gain for themselves Eternal Life. These duped people in their devilish pride and conceit, claim to do what even a created Innocent and very good Adam and Eve could not do. If only they had been there with Adam and Eve in the beginning, they could have been to them a good example of how to deny themselves, how to hate their own lives and to serve God and to continue to follow Him ! But thanks be to God, those who are Created anew because of Christ being Lifted up, those men born out of incorrptible seed, shall serve Him and follow Him forever !

 

[John O]

John 12:32 is True ! cont -
But alas, the proud freewillers and God haters, do believe man has the freewill ability to do what God requires for discipleship Jn 12:25 and gain for themselves Eternal Life. These duped people in their devilish pride and conceit, claim to do what even a created Innocent and very good Adam and Eve could not do. If only they had been there with Adam and Eve in the beginning, they could have been to them a good example of how to deny themselves, how to hate their own lives and to serve God and to continue to follow Him !

!

I know not one freewill believer who believes what you stated above. Salvation can only come from God in faith which God provides not man therefore man can not boast of anything.

John O

 

[Cassian]

John 12:32 is True ! cont -



26 If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.

Now who are those that serve Him ? Its His Seed Ps 22:30

30 A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.

They because He was Lifted up, shall serve Him and Follow Him. The only ones who hate their lives in this world as Per Jn 12:25 are those who have been born again of incorruptible seed. The Natural Man cannot but Love his own life, over the life of God which he is alienated from, for yielding to the serpents temptation proved that and so the fall. For eve was captured by the three things that constitutes love of self and the world 1 Jn 2:15-17, which are

15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

!

everyone of those sentences has a "free will" ability implied in them. Only a blind man would not be able to see it.

 

[savedbygrace57]

everyone of those sentences has a "free will" ability implied in them

In your mind !