Freewill religion is the Man of Sin !

[savedbygrace57]

Contrary to your view, scripturs says Christ died for the ungodly, He died
will we were yet sinners. These words, ungodly, sinners, applies to all men

Those words applied to God's Elect, Romans Teaches that Christ died for the Elect. Read Rom 8:33-34

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us [ God's Elect].

Christ here died for the elect, while they were sinners Rom 5:8

8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

 

[John O]

The Free Gift of Justification !


We know that Free Gift of Justification is not a offer as the antichrist followers teaches, simply by understanding Paul's analogy in Rom 5:16

16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

So then just as Judgment to condemnation came to all by one, in contrast to that the Free Gift unto Justification is to all by one. Now was the Judgment to condemnation an offer ? So then neither is the free gift of Justification, if both are not an offer then the analogy looses its force of comparison !

The Free Gift through Christ's Obedience offsets the judgment and condemnation of Adam's disobedience and further more it [Christ's obedience] eliminates all the actual transgressions of the whole election of Grace ! That is it goes far beyond offsetting that one act of disobedience of Adam !

Now those who are teaching that this free gift of Justification is merely made available to all or that is an offer to all without exception are teaching antichrist doctrines ! Because they are teaching against the accomplishment of Christ's Work to the sole Justification of those He died for !

We only teach what Paul states he who was the chief among sinners repented and was born again. This is available to all Paul makes this very clear.

John O

 

[Cassian]

The Free Gift of Justification !


We know that Free Gift of Justification is not a offer as the antichrist followers teaches, simply by understanding Paul's analogy in Rom 5:16

16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

So then just as Judgment to condemnation came to all by one, in contrast to that the Free Gift unto Justification is to all by one. Now was the Judgment to condemnation an offer ? So then neither is the free gift of Justification, if both are not an offer then the analogy looses its force of comparison !

The Free Gift through Christ's Obedience offsets the judgment and condemnation of Adam's disobedience and further more it [Christ's obedience] eliminates all the actual transgressions of the whole election of Grace ! That is it goes far beyond offsetting that one act of disobedience of Adam !

Now those who are teaching that this free gift of Justification is merely made available to all or that is an offer to all without exception are teaching antichrist doctrines ! Because they are teaching against the accomplishment of Christ's Work to the sole Justification of those He died for !

First, it is not an offer. it is a Gift of life, given to all men. Christ literally saved all men, the world from death.

YOu are correct however in that Christ overcame the fall of man. Which is why He is also called the Second Adam. I Cor 15:22 makes the very same comparision with an equation. Rom 11:32 attests to the same Mercy.

YOu have again created a strawman, then attempted to cut it down. The problem the strawman does not even exist since you have never established any of these so-called anti-christ followers. Secondly, you have never given any evidence that Christ only died for a few men.

If there is anyone who is working or teaching against what scripture teaches would be your view.

Very simply Christ died for the world, not just mankind. John 4:42 is not just verbiage, but the Truth.

 

[Cassian]

savedbygrace57,

Those words applied to God's Elect, Romans Teaches that Christ died for the Elect. Read Rom 8:33-34
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

but this is not in the context of Rom 5 as a whole, but more specifically Rom 5:12, Rom 5:18.

Christ here died for the elect, while they were sinners Rom 5:8
8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

there is no mention of the elect in all of Rom 5. The entire discourse from vs 6 through vs 21.

there is NEVER a statement directly made or implied that Christ ONLY died for some human beings called elect. Since Christ assumed our human natures and raised them to life, an eternal existance, John 6:39 attests to that fact, as does Heb 2:12. The very fact that all men will be raised at the judgement refutes your whole theology of some limitation upon Christ's work. Scripturally and theologically it is an impossibility that Christ only died for some.

It makes God a liar and makes God capricious, disengenuous, and violates His soverign will in creating man.

 

[savedbygrace57]

but this is not in the context of Rom 5 as a whole

Yes it is. Christ died for the Ungodly Elect ! Rom 8:33-34

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

 

[Grazer]

Yes it is. Christ died for the Ungodly Elect ! Rom 8:33-34

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Romans 5:6 is very clear

You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly

Romans 8 is about those who are in Christ, the sufferings and challenges that we face and how we are more than just sinners. It does not address who God died for.

If God died to purely save a chosen few, are the ones not chosen simply unlucky then?

 

[savedbygrace57]

gazer

Romans 5:6 is very clear

You see, at just the right time, when we
were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly

Yes the Ungodly Elect He died for. Romans tells us who He died for here Rom 8:33-34

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

In case you did not realize it, by Nature God's Elect are Ungodly, so your point is meaningless !

 

[Grazer]

gazer


Yes the Ungodly Elect He died for. Romans tells us who He died for here Rom 8:33-34

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

In case you did not realize it, by Nature God's Elect are Ungodly, so your point is meaningless !

You're putting 2 & 2 and making 5 as far as I can see. Its 2 very distinct statements, each is answered before the next one is raised.

Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

God justifies us, nothing on this earth can lay charges on us

Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Similar to the first statement.

If you mean that the un-godly elect is everyone then that makes sense.

 

[savedbygrace57]

grazer

You're putting 2 & 2 and making 5

No I am using scripture to clarify scripture !

 

[Grazer]

grazer



No I am using scripture to clarify scripture !

and in this case I think you're wrong for the reasons I've put from scripture. They are 2 separate points, I do not see how they fit unless forced to conform to an already pre-conceived view.

 

[savedbygrace57]

and in this case I think you're wrong for the reasons I've put from scripture. They are 2 separate points, I do not see how they fit unless forced to conform to an already pre-conceived view.

Thats why God has so many different contexts of scripture, that His True People and Teachers may search them and line up line upon line and precept upon precept !

Acts 17:11

11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

Isa 28:9-10

9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.

10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

 

[Cassian]

gazer


Yes the Ungodly Elect He died for. Romans tells us who He died for here Rom 8:33-34

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

In case you did not realize it, by Nature God's Elect are Ungodly, so your point is meaningless !

I realize that you have a cut-and-paste bible. But to harvest prooftexts to support an errant, unscriptural view, from many different contexts does not establish what scripture means.

 

[savedbygrace57]

I realize that you have a cut-and-paste bible. But to harvest prooftexts to support an errant, unscriptural view, from many different contexts does not establish what scripture means.

Christ died for the ungodly true enough, but its made clear that they were God's Elect Christ died for Rom 8:33-34

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

 

[savedbygrace57]

The desire of the Righteous shall be granted !


Prov 10:24

The fear of the wicked, it shall come upon him: but the desire of the righteous shall be granted.


Now who is more Righteous than the Lord Jesus Christ ? 1 Jn 2:1

My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

The man of sin followers place the desires of men and them being granted, moreso than the Righteous God and His Christ and their desires being granted and done. For God say they does desire many things to occur that does not come to pass, as in His desire that all men be saved and come into the knowledge of the Truth as Per 1 Tim 2:4, yet this desire will not be granted Him !

 

[savedbygrace57]

Scriptures that contradict man's idol freewill, that man acts independent of of God's Sovereignty !

The words of Jeremiah the Prophet Jer 10:23

23 O Lord, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.

This scripture is against freewill of man most definitely !

The GWT O LORD, I know that the way humans act is not under their control. Humans do not direct their steps as they walk.

The DBT I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps.


The wise man Solomon says Prov 16:9

9 A man's heart deviseth his way: but the Lord directeth his steps.

In case you did not know, the word steps is another word for a man's will !

The word means course of life, the Lord directs a mans curse of Life. This denotes that God is in control of the thinking process that determines they choices we make to choose our course of life !

This Truth demolishes the God forsaken concept of man has a freewill, a accountable will yes, but a freewill no way !

 

[Cassian]

Savedbygrace57,

The word means course of life, the Lord directs a mans curse of Life. This denotes that God is in control of the thinking process that determines they choices we make to choose our course of life !

This Truth demolishes the God forsaken concept of man has a freewill, a accountable will yes, but a freewill no way !

God is not in control of man'ss thinking process. We were all created with a rational soul. We make our own decisions.
However, God does direct our paths, He does lead, He does surely influence man's desires and will. But so does satan. It is man alone that decides who he will follow. Neither God nor satan can force man to do against his own will. That is known as free will, and that is what makes man accountable.

You have yet to show any text from scripture that says that God is responsible for the acts of man. or that God does the acts of man. If you can do that, then you will have established that man does not have a free will, even a will.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Scriptures that contradict man's idol freewill cont

David perceives that God is in control of man's will so He states Ps 33:10-11

10 The Lord bringeth the counsel of the heathen to nought: he maketh the devices of the people of none effect.

11 The counsel of the Lord standeth for ever, the thoughts of his heart to all generations.

That David knew of this experientially is seen by his prayer to God regarding the counsel of Ahithophel 2 Sam 15:31

31 And one told David, saying, Ahithophel is among the conspirators with Absalom. And David said, O Lord, I pray thee, turn the counsel of Ahithophel into foolishness.

This prayer shows that David believed that God controls the wills of men, and what they can or cannot bring to pass, He believed as all True Saints do, of God's Sovereignty over mens so called Freewill !

Davids prayer here also indicates that He believed in God's control over mens wills and hearts Ps 119:36

36 Incline my heart[or will] unto thy testimonies, and not to covetousness.

Such a request as here gives us to know that fearing God was something not natural for men and must come from God Ps 86:11

Teach me thy way, O LORD; I will walk in thy truth: unite my heart to fear thy name.

David prays for a Covenant Blessing Jer 32:39

And I will give them one heart, and one way, that they may fear me for ever, for the good of them, and of their children after them:

 

[Grazer]

I keep coming back to the same questions. If we don't have freewill to choose Christ;

What does that say about our relationship with Christ?
What does that say about his relationship with us?
What does that say about Gods version/interpretation of love?
What does that mean for those who God hasn't chosen?

If we go as far to say we have no free will at all;

What does that mean for original sin?
What does that mean for the concept of good and evil?
What does that mean for morality as a whole?

 

[Cassian]

Scriptures that contradict man's idol freewill cont

David perceives that God is in control of man's will so He states Ps 33:10-11

10 The Lord bringeth the counsel of the heathen to nought: he maketh the devices of the people of none effect.

11 The counsel of the Lord standeth for ever, the thoughts of his heart to all generations.

That David knew of this experientially is seen by his prayer to God regarding the counsel of Ahithophel 2 Sam 15:31

31 And one told David, saying, Ahithophel is among the conspirators with Absalom. And David said, O Lord, I pray thee, turn the counsel of Ahithophel into foolishness.

This prayer shows that David believed that God controls the wills of men, and what they can or cannot bring to pass, He believed as all True Saints do, of God's Sovereignty over mens so called Freewill !

Davids prayer here also indicates that He believed in God's control over mens wills and hearts Ps 119:36

36 Incline my heart[or will] unto thy testimonies, and not to covetousness.

Such a request as here gives us to know that fearing God was something not natural for men and must come from God Ps 86:11

Teach me thy way, O LORD; I will walk in thy truth: unite my heart to fear thy name.

David prays for a Covenant Blessing Jer 32:39

And I will give them one heart, and one way, that they may fear me for ever, for the good of them, and of their children after them:

Apparently part of your strawman theology is an incorrect view of man's free will. These texts all refer to man's free will. None of them says God does man's will. David asks God to lead, not do do David's will. Give me the Truth so that I may walk in them. David never states that God is doing the walking for David.

If things were foregone and God acts for man, then David's prayer is quite meaningless.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Unprofitableness of Duty Faith and Repentance !

Luke 17:10

10 So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

The Anti Christ followers are big on this doing a duty or obeying a command in order for God to save them, as though they did something to deserve it !

But look at the fate of the unprofitable servant that relies on his commandment keeping for salvation ! Matt 25:30

And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

But the Natural man is always going to have that mentality that salvation comes through them paying a debt of duty, and they neglect that Jesus Christ has paid that debt which God's Chosen People owed, but they will refuse to bow to that Revelation in the Gospel of God !