Freewill religion is the Man of Sin !

[Cassian]

Jack Straw,
　

By those statements you are (perhaps unknowingly) saying that people can overthrow the plans of The Creator, and are saying that God "is dependent" upon man for the fulfillment of His purposes. You are saying that only IF man will do certain things, only IF man will comply with certain terms, only IF man decides to accept the call, then God can accomplish His original purposes. Nonsense.

Your misunderstanding comes from not recognizing the purpose for which God created man in the first place.
It was God's plan that He would create a creature with whom He could commune and be in union with. A union based on love, which necessitates man to be free, able to choose freely whether He would desire to be in union with God.

Thus man becomes the fulcrum of that plan. It is man who decides whether he freely desires to be united with God in working in this created order. We are not created objects, or tools of God. God did not create us as animals or plants. Your veiw makes man, rather than created in God's Image with a rational soul, much lower than even animals.
　

Who is in charge here anyway? The doctrine of free will says that "if man will not lend his aid; if he will not perform his part of the work, then the plans of God rest upon the weak minds and uncertainty of people, rather than upon Himself."

We were specifically created to make that decision. There is nothing in scripture that says otherwise.

Do you honestly think God would allow His original purpose and plan to be placed upon the shoulders of ignorant, frail, and weak-willed men? Do you think that God has delegated to lesser beings that which is essential to give success to all His measures for man's salvation? That is precisely what the doctrine of free will dictates.

It is the ONLY reason He created man. Most of your statement is based on erroneous understanding of why God created man.
　

Contrary to what the doctrine of free will dictates, NO being in Heaven and Earth can thwart God's Will, and no being can overturn His purposes or frustrate His designs.

the free will of man, of man choosing fulfulls the will of God. It is all within His Sovereign will that man choose to freely enter into a union of love. It cannot be otherwise.
　

It is ridiculous to believe that Almighty God would permit man to thwart His efforts.

rather than thwarting, man fulfills God's plan for creating him.

The doctrine of free will could only be true if God created man and endowed him with greater power than His own…..powers so great that, in his self-determination, GOD COULD NOT influence him nor have at His infinite disposal the means to educate and enlighten his darkened, finite mind. I don't think so. Contrary to what the doctrine of free will dictates, NO being in Heaven and Earth can thwart God's Will, and no being can overturn His purposes or frustrate His designs.

again you are demonstrating that you do not understand the meaning of "free will" either.

Christians who believe in free will flat out deny Scripture. A five year old can understand verses such as

Ephesians 1:11; John 15:16; Ephesians 2:8-9; Romans 9:16; John 6:44; (and countless others); but adults whose minds have been darkened by the religious traditions of men can not understand. They contradict themselves constantly without realizing it.

Man with a free will is fulfilling all those texts since man being created in God's Image with a rational soul and and independent will is all within God's Council of His own will.
Rom 9:16 is out of context regarding man's will and individual salvation through faith.
　

They say; "I am powerless," and in the same breath they say; "I am able to respond to Christ's call."

They say; "God is in total control," and in the same sentence they'll say;
"I have free will." They'll say; "God predestined me,"
and at the same time they'll say;
"I determine my own destiny."

And then;

"It's not my credit I'm going to heaven," however,

"it's those peoples' faults (credit) they're going to hell." They don't realize they are walking contradictions because they are blinded by religious tradition.

again, based on your total misunderstanding of the purpose of man's very existance.
　

God did not MAKE Jonah go to Ninevah - but He did MAKE HIM WILLING to go!

and that is why we have a rational soul and can actually decide based on the influences, consequences. Jonah could have still rejected God, but thought better of it after listening and rationalizing his actions. God did not MAKE Him go to Nivevah, or actually do it for him.
　

The notion that God cannot, or will not, influence the wills of ALL MEN to bring them ALL unto Himself is a wicked insult to both His redeeming love and His omnipotence!

this statement shows your ignorance of the meaning of free will. You are describing autonomous will, not free will. Man in order to make rational decision must have options, or influences working upon him. He decides based on the options. Man has both God and satan working upon His will. But it is man that decides, and that is why man is responsible for his actions and decisions and not God.
In this statement you are also confusing what Christ did, that is redeem mankind, His love for all men, for the world, is the same thing as God calling you individually to believe and join with Him. God brings all men to Himself, Man is created with an inherent magnet toward God, it is called a conscience. Paul makes this very clear in Rom 1:18-24.

To say that some people are called, but however, they resist God's call is even more wicked and more of an insult to God. No one can resist coming to Christ when God DRAWS THEM!

It is the very purpose of your existance. It is the ONLY reason that God permitted Adam to freely choose, sin and accept the deception of Satan. Since God draws all men, and the Holy Spirit calls all to repentance it is quite obvious that most have rejected that call.
　

Can you think of anyone who was more resistant to Christ than Saul? I highly doubt it! Could Saul resist accepting the call? Of course not....NO ONE CAN! So to suggest that some are called, or DRAWN TO CHRIST by God, but yet don't answer the call and come to Him is the epitome of foolishness.

Yes, Adam. Paul could have resisted. He was not FORCED to accept. Again this is based on your erroneous understanding of free will.
　

In addition, it is another accepted lie of men to say that our Heavenly Father would place His disobedient children in a condition where they would become eternally fixed forever and denied the privilege of ever accepting the call. That is unbiblical and a doctrine of demons. Whenever the sinner would accept the call and repent, in this flesh age, or the next age, God of course would allow it. Why should He not?

Which is why man's free will is the very foundation of our existance and purpose of why God created us, and furthermore why God needed to give us His revelation, to inform us of what He expects of us. If it was all up to God, revelation is moot. Any communication is moot. Man becomes a tool, and object of manipulation, not of love and obedience freely given.
　

Isaiah 55:7:

"Let the wicked forsake his way,
And the unrighteous man his thoughts;
Let him return to the Lord,
And He will have mercy on him;
And to our God,
For He will abundantly pardon."

a very good free will text. It leaves it all to man to be the decision maker.
　

Jesus Christ HAS OVERRULED THE FREE WILL OF MAN! God IS THE ONLY ONE WHO HAS FREE WILL! He is the ONLY ONE who could make a decision regarding salvation! And HE MADE IT FOR US ALL! Praise His name!

again, you really have no understanding of the meaning of free will. God does not have free will. He does not depend on influences higher than he on which He makes His decisions. He has autonomous will.

 

[Jack Straw]

Originally posted by savedbygrace 57,

Now one of those strong delusions of those under the power of sin and the Antichrist as described in 2 Thess 2:11, is that man has a freewill in this matter of salvation!

Man's free will with regard to salvation is indeed the "engine" behind the strong delusion that has deceived the world for almost two millennia. I am now convinced that the false teaching of eternal torment has contributed more to the moral downfall of this world (especially that of the western nations) than anyone can or ever could calculate. We, ourselves, have terribly underestimated its effects. The teaching of eternal torment is the "hallMARK" (MARK) of the great harlot church system. Other than the crucifixion of Christ, no greater evil has ever existed in this world than the satanic teaching of eternal torment.

But it is also true that if it were not for the false teaching of free will, the doctrine of eternal torment would never have come about. Religious self-righteousness is directly connected to the idea of free will with regard to salvation. The idea of eternal torment is derived from religious self-righteousness, which in turn is derived from the doctrine of free will with regard to man's salvation.

 

[Cassian]

Man's free will with regard to salvation is indeed the "engine" behind the strong delusion that has deceived the world for almost two millennia. I am now convinced that the false teaching of eternal torment has contributed more to the moral downfall of this world (especially that of the western nations) than anyone can or ever could calculate. We, ourselves, have terribly underestimated its effects. The teaching of eternal torment is the "hallMARK" (MARK) of the great harlot church system. Other than the crucifixion of Christ, no greater evil has ever existed in this world than the satanic teaching of eternal torment.

But it is also true that if it were not for the false teaching of free will, the doctrine of eternal torment would never have come about. Religious self-righteousness is directly connected to the idea of free will with regard to salvation. The idea of eternal torment is derived from religious self-righteousness, which in turn is derived from the doctrine of free will with regard to man's salvation.

you are one very confused individual regarding both 'free will" and hell. One has nothing to do with the other. What you say above is nothing more than complete and total misunderstanding of both topics.

 

[savedbygrace57]

jack

I am now convinced that the false teaching of eternal
torment has contributed more to the moral downfall of this world
(especially that of the western nations) than anyone can or ever could
calculate.

Yes, what you believe is a strong delusion also, just as damnable !

 

[JLB]

The OP is correct. The "man of sin" sitting in the "temple of God" is THE SELF usurping and exalting HIMSELF AS GOD in the Temple of God, showing HIMSELF that he is God, by thinking HIS BELIEF in God (his WILL) is what saves, not Christ (God's Will).

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4: "Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the MAN of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he as God sits in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God."

Christians forget what the temple of God is:

1 Corinthians 3:16-17; 6:19: "Know not that YOU ARE the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple YOU ARE. What? know you not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you?"

1 Peter 2:3-5: "If you have tasted that the Lord is gracious, Who came as unto a LIVING STONE, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious, YOU ALSO, as LIVELY STONES, are built up a SPIRITUAL HOUSE, AN HOLY PRIESTHOOD, TO OFFER UP SPIRITUAL SACRIFICES, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ."

The man of sin "exalts HIMSELF" above all...so that he AS GOD sits IN THE TEMPLE OF GOD." The popular, yet false teaching says that Paul was speaking of a future rebuilt JEWISH TEMPLE in Jerusalem. But every reference that Paul made to the "temple of God" reveals that he NEVER applied this term to the Jewish temple! When the Bible speaks of the "literal temple," the word "hieron" is used. This word is used 71 times in the New Testament in reference to the temple at Jerusalem. On the other hand, the word that Paul used for temple is "NAOS" which refers not to the literal temple, but to the Holy Place. NAOS is THE DWELLING PLACE OF GOD. And the dwelling place of God is now HIS MANY MEMBERED BODY.

Paul said:

1 Corinthians 3:17: "The temple o God is holy, which temple YOU ARE."

1 Corinthians 6:19: "Know not that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit which is in you?"

2 Corinthians 6:16: "For you are the temple of the living God; as God has said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them"

The "MAN OF SIN" (the SELF) takes the seat of God in the temple of God (which YOU ARE) and usurps the leading of the Holy Spirit. He thinks he's a servant of God, but in reality, he's serving the false god of SELF as he resists the Holy Spirit and "opposes and exalts HIMSELF above all that is called God, so that HE AS GOD sits in the temple of God, showing HIMSELF that HE is God." With the encouragement of Satan from within the carnal, flesh man; this is the essence of MAN'S RELIGION!

Revelation 13:18: "Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a MAN, and his number is 666."

It is the number of a MAN, because it is the religion of MAN; OF SELF and the number that represents MAN in the Scriptures is the number 6.


*Man was created on the 6th day

*6 days for MAN to labour

*MAN could sow the land 6 years, but the seventh belonged to the Lord

*When MAN dies, he's buried 6 feet under - (just kidding

*Goliath; who defied the Lord's army, was 6 cubits tall. His spearhead weighed 600 shekels of iron.

*Nebuchadnezzar's great image, set up in the plain of Dura, was 60 by 6 cubits.

Man's defiance grows in dimensions and in importance as time progresses. The image of Nebuchadnezzar is TEN TIMES the dimensions of Goliath, and the number of the beast in Revelation 13 is TEN TIMES that of the image of Nebuchadnezzar (666).

The "god" they think they are praising and worshiping is not actually God at all, but rather the traditions of MAN. Their god is "MAN"! Their god is THE IMAGE OF SELF! Man creates God in his OWN IMAGE! The IMAGE OF THE BEAST. THE BEAST is CARNAL MAN!

Revelation 13:18: "Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a MAN."

God bless and peace.:peace

Hey this is great, I just learned something new!

The Man of Sin is omnipresent like God and is able to "occupy" all the Christians all over the whole world at the same time!

What a joke! :biglol


JLB

 

[savedbygrace57]

Strong delusions and Believing Lies ! cont


Now one of those strong delusions of those under the power of sin and the Antichrist as described in 2 Thess 2:11, is that man has a freewill in this matter of salvation !

Now even more to the point, that man can freely believe on Jesus Christ, whenever he chooses, and by doing so, gains to himself, eternal life or eternal salvation as in Heb 5:9

And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

But all superstitious none sense denies man's spiritual dead state by nature ! Yes, man has a natural will and a reasonable soul by nature, but nevertheless, we are still alienated from the life of God as per Eph 4:18

Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

This applies to all men by nature, jew and gentile. Though man by nature has many carnal abilities with his will and mental faculties, he has none spiritually, we cannot do one spiritual act, because there is no spiritual life in us as here Jn 6:53

Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

Without which we can not even think a spiritual thought that is pleasing to God, we cannot even pray a spiritual prayer, that is not an abomination before God Prov 15:8

The sacrifice of the wicked is an abomination to the LORD: but the prayer of the upright is his delight.


Man's freewill ability is limited to what he is by nature, a sinners will, much like that of a lion's will, is limited to what he is by nature as an lion, so his will cannot be that of a Dove ! Man, his will is limited to that of a sinner dead in sin and alienated from God, and cannot be as the will of a Person who is born again of an incorruptible seed !

The false teachers of today tell us man has the ability above that of his degenerate nature, and that he can perform spiritual acts of life activity, and that he can spiritually come to Christ and spiritually see Him and Spiritually believe on Him unto Salvation, in direct contradiction of Jn 6:44. The reason why he cannot come is because by nature he is dead, because coming denotes life, motion , progress ! A motion as in a Living Body. By nature mans will is at enmity to God, and therefore cannot be subject to the law of God. This is important because the coming of Jn 6:44 denotes a submission in coming ! And the coming is the response of a command to come, like this here Matt 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Any command whatsoever, such as come or to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and though shalt be saved Acts 16:31

31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

That word believe in the original is an command or an imperative ! Now scripture says that the man of the flesh cannot be subject to the law or Command of God Rom 8:7-8

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Now before New Birth we are all in the flesh !

 

[Jack Straw]

Originally posted by JBL,

Hey this is great, I just learned something new!

The Man of Sin is omnipresent like God and is able to "occupy" all the Christians all over the whole world at the same time!

What a joke!

JBL, forgive me, but I see no relevance whatsoever in your statement (maybe it is me). Let's try this again.

The man of sin stands in the temple. The word temple used in 2 Thessalonians is NAOS. It is a Greek word. It means the body of a person. The word HIERON is also a Greek word and it is used in conjunction with a physical building.

Thus, if HIERON had been used in 2 Thessalonians, it would have referred to a building or a temple built of mortar and stone. Some without researching assume that the temple that the man of sin will sit in is a NATURAL BUILDING MADE OF STONE. But this is a lie. The harlot church system proclaims the temple in Jerusalem will be rebuilt. This is a figment of man's imagination. The Jewish Temple will never be rebuilt.

Matthew 23:38: "Behold, your house is left unto you desolate."

The temple Paul and Peter are referring to is not a temple made out of literal bricks and stone. YOU are the Temple of God!

1 Corinthians 3:17: "The temple of God is holy, which temple YOU ARE"

The man of sin, that son of perdition, causes a rebellion that is within the temple of God. He rises up and assumes a place of authority that he does not have. The rebellion (2 Thessalonians 2:3) occurs when the man of God yields his leadership to the man of sin, the carnal mind, those fleshly desires of the outer (adamic) man. This can happen to you, to me, to anyone! It has happened within the "corporate BODY OF CHRIST" - as man's ceremonies, activities, creeds, rituals, services, rules, regulations, songs, religious works, etc, have usurped and REPLACED the INDWELLING CHRIST; and man's false theories and ideas have replaced God's Truth!

Instead of God being seen in the house of God. We see the image of a false god - MAN, and his false representation, his FALSE IMAGE of God that he prostitutes to the world through his religion.

Thessalonians 2: (3) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; (4) Who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sits in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

This "man of sin" has replaced God in His temple WHICH YOU ARE!

1 Peter 2:3-5: "If you have tasted that the Lord is gracious, Who came as unto a LIVING STONE, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious, YOU ALSO, as LIVELY STONES, are built up a SPIRITUAL HOUSE, AN HOLY PRIESTHOOD, TO OFFER UP SPIRITUAL SACRIFICES, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ"

1 Corinthians 3:17: "The temple o God is holy, which temple YOU ARE."

1 Corinthians 6:19: "Know not that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit which is in you?"

2 Corinthians 6:16: "For YOU ARE THE TEMPLE OF THE LIVING GOD; as God has said, I WILL DWELL IN THEM, and walk in them"

The "MAN OF SIN" (the carnal man - i.e. the SELF) takes the seat of God in the temple of God (which YOU ARE) and usurps the leading of the Holy Spirit.

It's not a difficult concept to understand; and the Bible is straight-forward concerning this. However, if you still wish to theorize the Temple as being a Jewish Temple rebuilt sometime in the future, or something else, that is your choice; but you will never find anything in the Bible to back that up; it's not there. The Bible clearly tells us what the temple now is in numerous places, so believe what you will.

 

[Jack Straw]

Originally posted by Cassian,

you are one very confused individual regarding both 'free will" and hell. One has nothing to do with the other. What you say above is nothing more than complete and total misunderstanding of both topics.

Your "perception" is that I am confused, only because your are looking through the lens of the harlot church and it's long established, yet false traditions of men. Ironically, there IS NOTHING to be confused about when it comes to either "eternal torment" or "freewill" with regard to man's salvation, because neither of them exist, or have EVER existed, other than within the vain imaginations of the ministers of Satan disguised as ministers of righteousness (2 Corinthians 11:14). How can one be confused about things that have never existed? Only those who believe in things that aren't really there are confused. My only confusion comes from knowing that people vehemently believe in ludicrous traditions that are not, and have NEVER been Biblical. A lot of hootin' and hollerin' - but never any Biblical evidence - other than some mistranslated English words that never existed in the Greek, Hebrew, or Aramaic, along with pagan mythology presumed to be Scriptural.

The "unbelievers" spoken of in the Bible are not the unregenerate men and women "out there" in the world. The unbelievers are religious people who have "a form of godliness, but deny its power" (2 Timothy 3:5). They are religious people who deny the power of THE CROSS. They see THE CROSS as a failure, and believe that Christ is only able to save a small percentage of humanity, while the majority is either tortured throughout eternity or erased from existence. They believe the sin of the FIRST ADAM has more power than the victory of Christ; the LAST ADAM (having a form of godliness, but denying its power indeed). The GOOD NEWS is that Christ is THE SAVIOR OF ALL MEN, and has reconciled ALL to Himself (1 Corinthians 15:22; 1 Timothy 4:10; John 12:32; Colossians 1:19-20; 1 Timothy 2:3-4; Romans 5:18-19; John 3:17; Acts 3:21, etc.).

The teaching of endless punishment (eternal torment in hell) slanders the character of God and dishonors His Son. Failure to distinguish between the elective salvation of the ages (2 Timothy 2:10), and the general salvation beyond (1 Timothy 4:9-11; 2:3-6), has caused many to malign the God they seek to glorify. If you believe in eternal torment, and if you make the people who go there responsible for it—i.e., "it's their own fault they're going to burn in hell forever", then you cannot avoid the corollary, which is, "it's my own credit I'm going to heaven." Do you believe it's your credit? It is impossible to believe one and not the other. If you truly believe that those people in hell deserve their punishment, then you cannot avoid believing that you deserve your salvation. This is known as self-righteousness. It is also known as salvation by works, which is unavoidable if you believe man has free will with regard to salvation. So of course, eternal torment and free will have EVERYTHING to do with each other. Man's ego wants to believe that he had something to do with his salvation, and he refuses to believe it was Christ Himself, not his own "belief" in Christ. Many believe "their decision" (free will) to believe in Christ separates them eternally from those who didn't make that decision (i.e. - I'm going to Heaven, those who didn't make the decision are going to Hell). According to orthodoxy, it is "the choice" (free will) that determines whether or not a person will be tormented in Hell for eternity. And you say eternal torment has nothing to do with free will? I don't know if you (Cassian) believe in eternal torment or not. By reading some of your posts, my guess would be no, so just know that I only used the personal pronoun "you" for illustration purposes - I wasn't actually referring to 'you' personally.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Strong delusions and Believing Lies ! cont

The Apostle Paul was giving a spiritual command to the Jailor to Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, of which if the Jailor was but an Natural Man in the Flesh, not yet born again, he could not have obeyed such an command, because he would have still been at enmity with the Word of God, that Paul had just spoke to him before he could believe as per Acts 16:32

32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.

This word spake is also translated preach in the NT Acts 16:6

6 Now when they had gone throughout Phrygia and the region of Galatia, and were forbidden of the Holy Ghost to preach the word in Asia,

Now, the Word of God must be understood to a degree in order to receive it, embrace it, believe it Matt 13:23,19

23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

For it was the word of the Kingdom vs 19 which word Paul Preached Acts 20:25

25 And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more.

Now for the Jailor to obey and embrace the word of the Kingdom or the Word of God, he could not have had only a natural mind at enmity with God, or he could not have believed and been saved, its impossible, however the Antichrist followers say that the natural man has the spiritual ability and will by nature to believe to the saving of the soul, but they do lie, and they only by such lies, give evidence of being under strong delusion to believe such a lie !

 

[Jack Straw]

Originally posted by savedbygrace57,

Now for the Jailor to obey and embrace the word of the Kingdom or the Word of God, he could not have had only a natural mind at enmity with God, or he could not have believed and been saved, its impossible

That particular statement is true:

1 Corinthians 2:14: "But the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he understand them, because they are spiritually discerned."

Romans 3:10-11: "There is NONE THAT UNDERSTANDS, there is NONE THAT SEEKS after God."

1 Corinthians 12:3: "NO MAN can say Jesus is Lord, BUT BY THE HOLY SPIRIT."

John 6:44: "NO ONE is able to come to Me UNLESS the Father Who sent Me DRAWS HIM unto Me."

All people fall into one of two categories, elect or non-elect. However, the non-elect are not condemned to a hell of eternal torture (or annihilation) as believed by Calvinism (and even by Arminianism, which is the prevailing belief of today's churches). Ultimately, in God's time and in His order, ALL people without exception are destined to be saved and reconciled to God through the work of THE CROSS.

1 Corinthians 15:22-26: "For as in Adam ALL DIE, even so in Christ ALL SHALL BE MADE ALIVE. But each one in HIS OWN ORDER: Christ the firstfruits, AFTERWARD those who are Christ's at His coming. Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be destroyed is death."

Notice that it is one hundred percent clear what this scripture says. "ALL" who die in Adam is exactly the same "ALL" that shall be made alive in Christ, which means that each and every human being will be made alive in Christ (i.e. - will be saved). It does NOT say that only some of all of the people in Adam shall be made alive in Christ.

It is also important to note that everyone will be made alive in Christ IN HIS OWN ORDER, which is in God's time and in accordance with God's Plan of the Ages for the reconciliation of ALL things. It is the false doctrines of hell and annihilation that are the stumbling blocks preventing people from believing the obvious and glorious truth contained in this scripture.

1 Timothy 2:6: "Who gave Himself a ransom FOR ALL, to be testified IN DUE TIME."

Jesus gave Himself as a ransom for ALL to be testified in due time, which is in God's time and His order for each and every person.

God's Elect, the Firstfruits, will be resurrected in their saved immortal bodies to enter the Millennial Kingdom of God with Jesus Christ (Revelation 20:6). However, God's ultimate purpose is to save ALL, even though He has temporarily blinded the majority of His people to this day and given them unbelieving, hardened hearts.

Romans 11:5-8: "Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work. What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. THE OTHERS WERE HARDENED, as it is written:

'GOD GAVE them a spirit of stupor,
eyes so that they could not see
and ears so that they could not hear,
to this very day.'"

Unfortunately, most do not have the discernment and/or Biblical resourcefulness to distinguish between the elective salvation of the ages, and the general salvation of ALL (1 Timothy 4:9-11; 2:3-6; 2 Timothy 2:10). This has caused many to blaspheme the God they seek to glorify by teaching doctrines of demons such as eternal torment and annihilation.

 

[Cassian]

Jack Straw,

Your "perception" is that I am confused, only because your are looking through the lens of the harlot church and it's long established, yet false traditions of men.

I didn't know that the Church Christ established was a harlot church. If it is, just what is your church?

I also did not know that the Holy Spirit was a man. That the revelation, or Holy Tradition He gave to the Apostles was not really the correct gospel. Where did you get yours?

Ironically, there IS NOTHING to be confused about when it comes to either "eternal torment" or "freewill" with regard to man's salvation, because neither of them exist, or have EVER existed, other than within the vain imaginations of the ministers of Satan disguised as ministers of righteousness (2 Corinthians 11:14).

this is quite a common mantra of man made theorists. YOu have already displayed a misunderstanding of "free will" so I would imagine that your concept of hell is also misunderstood.

My only confusion comes from knowing that people vehemently believe in ludicrous traditions that are not, and have NEVER been Biblical. A lot of hootin' and hollerin' - but never any Biblical evidence - other than some mistranslated English words that never existed in the Greek, Hebrew, or Aramaic, along with pagan mythology presumed to be Scriptural.

It seems you are the one who has the man made tradition and the unbiblical understanding. If yours was biblical you would be giving me the evidence and all you are giving are empty plantitudes.

The "unbelievers" spoken of in the Bible are not the unregenerate men and women "out there" in the world. The unbelievers are religious people who have "a form of godliness, but deny its power" (2 Timothy 3:5). They are religious people who deny the power of THE CROSS. They see THE CROSS as a failure, and believe that Christ is only able to save a small percentage of humanity, while the majority is either tortured throughout eternity or erased from existence. They believe the sin of the FIRST ADAM has more power than the victory of Christ; the LAST ADAM (having a form of godliness, but denying its power indeed). The GOOD NEWS is that Christ is THE SAVIOR OF ALL MEN, and has reconciled ALL to Himself (1 Corinthians 15:22; 1 Timothy 4:10; John 12:32; Colossians 1:19-20; 1 Timothy 2:3-4; Romans 5:18-19; John 3:17; Acts 3:21, etc.).

which is your interpretation [/quote]

Christ did indeed save all men and reconciled the world to Himself. But He saved the world so that both He and man could again be rejoined in a relationship for which man was created. You have cut out the last half of our salvation. That relationship is a mutual one, a freely entered one.

YOu are preaching a false teaching known as Universalism which was condemned by the Church 1700 years ago. YOu are believing a myth. YOu, like many modern men don't like the responsibility that God created you with and need to deny its power. Thinking that all men will be saved individually may give you a warm fuzzy feeling, a nice psychololgical lift, but that will not change reality. It is just a sugarcoat for this life.

The teaching of endless punishment (eternal torment in hell) slanders the character of God and dishonors His Son. Failure to distinguish between the elective salvation of the ages (2 Timothy 2:10), and the general salvation beyond (1 Timothy 4:9-11; 2:3-6), has caused many to malign the God they seek to glorify. If you believe in eternal torment, and if you make the people who go there responsible for it—i.e., "it's their own fault they're going to burn in hell forever", then you cannot avoid the corollary, which is, "it's my own credit I'm going to heaven." Do you believe it's your credit? It is impossible to believe one and not the other. If you truly believe that those people in hell deserve their punishment, then you cannot avoid believing that you deserve your salvation. This is known as self-righteousness. It is also known as salvation by works, which is unavoidable if you believe man has free will with regard to salvation. So of course, eternal torment and free will have EVERYTHING to do with each other. Man's ego wants to believe that he had something to do with his salvation, and he refuses to believe it was Christ Himself, not his own "belief" in Christ. Many believe "their decision" (free will) to believe in Christ separates them eternally from those who didn't make that decision (i.e. - I'm going to Heaven, those who didn't make the decision are going to Hell). According to orthodoxy, it is "the choice" (free will) that determines whether or not a person will be tormented in Hell for eternity. And you say eternal torment has nothing to do with free will? I don't know if you (Cassian) believe in eternal torment or not. By reading some of your posts, my guess would be no, so just know that I only used the personal pronoun "you" for illustration purposes - I wasn't actually referring to 'you' personally.

MOre of your modern rationalization of a modern concept of scripture. YOu mix truth with error to formulate a doctrine much more to your liking. Do you think that you should be given credit for being able to breath? Yet you think that if you hold your breath long enough that you would die, that it would not be your decision. Your relationship with God is mutual. It is synergistic and has obligations. These are not merit points. YOu were created to be able to make those choices and will be held accountable for it. That part man had no role in. We were created with a will, a rational soul. We can ignore this as you do, or we can accept the fact and then follow through and either choose life or death.

 

[JLB]

JBL, forgive me, but I see no relevance whatsoever in your statement (maybe it is me). Let's try this again.

The man of sin stands in the temple. The word temple used in 2 Thessalonians is NAOS. It is a Greek word. It means the body of a person. The word HIERON is also a Greek word and it is used in conjunction with a physical building.

Thus, if HIERON had been used in 2 Thessalonians, it would have referred to a building or a temple built of mortar and stone. Some without researching assume that the temple that the man of sin will sit in is a NATURAL BUILDING MADE OF STONE. But this is a lie. The harlot church system proclaims the temple in Jerusalem will be rebuilt. This is a figment of man's imagination. The Jewish Temple will never be rebuilt.

Matthew 23:38: "Behold, your house is left unto you desolate."

The temple Paul and Peter are referring to is not a temple made out of literal bricks and stone. YOU are the Temple of God!

1 Corinthians 3:17: "The temple of God is holy, which temple YOU ARE"

The man of sin, that son of perdition, causes a rebellion that is within the temple of God. He rises up and assumes a place of authority that he does not have. The rebellion (2 Thessalonians 2:3) occurs when the man of God yields his leadership to the man of sin, the carnal mind, those fleshly desires of the outer (adamic) man. This can happen to you, to me, to anyone! It has happened within the "corporate BODY OF CHRIST" - as man's ceremonies, activities, creeds, rituals, services, rules, regulations, songs, religious works, etc, have usurped and REPLACED the INDWELLING CHRIST; and man's false theories and ideas have replaced God's Truth!

Instead of God being seen in the house of God. We see the image of a false god - MAN, and his false representation, his FALSE IMAGE of God that he prostitutes to the world through his religion.

Thessalonians 2: (3) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; (4) Who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sits in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

This "man of sin" has replaced God in His temple WHICH YOU ARE!

1 Peter 2:3-5: "If you have tasted that the Lord is gracious, Who came as unto a LIVING STONE, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious, YOU ALSO, as LIVELY STONES, are built up a SPIRITUAL HOUSE, AN HOLY PRIESTHOOD, TO OFFER UP SPIRITUAL SACRIFICES, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ"

1 Corinthians 3:17: "The temple o God is holy, which temple YOU ARE."

1 Corinthians 6:19: "Know not that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit which is in you?"

2 Corinthians 6:16: "For YOU ARE THE TEMPLE OF THE LIVING GOD; as God has said, I WILL DWELL IN THEM, and walk in them"

The "MAN OF SIN" (the carnal man - i.e. the SELF) takes the seat of God in the temple of God (which YOU ARE) and usurps the leading of the Holy Spirit.

It's not a difficult concept to understand; and the Bible is straight-forward concerning this. However, if you still wish to theorize the Temple as being a Jewish Temple rebuilt sometime in the future, or something else, that is your choice; but you will never find anything in the Bible to back that up; it's not there. The Bible clearly tells us what the temple now is in numerous places, so believe what you will.

No it's not difficult to understand at all.

BL, forgive me, but I see no relevance whatsoever in your statement (maybe it is me). Let's try this again.

The man of sin stands in the temple. The word temple used in 2 Thessalonians is NAOS. It is a Greek word. It means the body of a person. The word HIERON is also a Greek word and it is used in conjunction with a physical building.

Naos does not mean a body of a person! You just made that up to fit your presumptuous statement!


Naos - Strong's Number: 3485

used of the temple at Jerusalem, but only of the sacred edifice (or sanctuary) itself, consisting of the Holy place and the Holy of Holies (in classical Greek it is used of the sanctuary or cell of the temple, where the image of gold was placed which is distinguished from the whole enclosure)

I challenge anyone who is reading this post to look up the word NAOS # 3485 and see for yourself the false statement this man has made here.

Here is an example of this word in use by Jesus!


17 Fools and blind! For which is greater, the gold or the temple that sanctifies the gold? Matthew 23:17

Look up the word temple here in the Strongs, it is naos!


Heed the words of Paul...

Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

• ...the man of sin is revealed - He is a man and he will be revealed so that he is known!

• A man can not "occupy" all of the "body of Christ", only God is omnipresent!

• ...showing himself that he is God. He shows himself by going to the temple so that he is seen!

JLB

 

[savedbygrace57]

And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him !

Rev 13:8

And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

It is written, all shall worship him, the beast ! Only those whose names are written in the book of life of the Lamb will not worship and follow this deceptive beast, for it is none other than the false prophets and preachers with false gospels, so close to the real, that if it were possible they would deceive the very elect, those whose names are written in the book of life !

Matt 24:23-24

23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Now this worship of this beast by the whole world, by all that dwell upon the earth comes by reason that all men by nature are freewillers, and conditionalist, and so man by nature cannot help but to cleave to some kind of form of conditional salvation; That it is something man must do, or think, some sorta duty that he must perform before getting saved, and it does not matter what religion it is, from hinduism, Islam, Buddhism to protestant reform, arminianism to calvinism, all set forth some condition, and only God's Elect will escape, for their Salvation was not based upon any condition or act they did perform, but purely as it was a matter revealed to them by the Gospel; But it is that conditionalism is a built in principle operating in all men all over by nature !

 

[savedbygrace57]

Repentance is Given to the Elect Through Christ !

Lk 24:47

47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

The Antichrist crowd as with faith to believe in Christ, so also with repentance [to turn to God] they teach it as a condition that man must fulfill [ a work] and so we make ourselves worthy for salvation, but this is but another cheat upon Christ and His Finished Work, who as the Exalted Saviour of His People, He gives or bestows Repentance upon His Redeemed People Acts 5:31

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel[His Elect or Sheep], and forgiveness of sins.

For Repentance does not originate in men, at least not that which is joined with remission of sins. That any man repents toward God as per Acts 20:21

21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

It is because of the Sovereign Grace and Spirit of God, working within us for us to will and do of God's good pleasure Phil 2:13

For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Now what is said in Acts 5:31 is also what was stated in Acts 3:26

26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

That is what giving repentance does, it turns us from our sins, that is the blessing of Gen 12:3

3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Thats the Blessing, being given repentance or being turned away from our iniquities. Notice how both repentance or being turned from ones sins are both premised on Christ's resurrection and Exaltation Acts 3:26 & Acts 5:31.

Christ is no man's Saviour, that does not Repent Towards God, and believes in Him as Saviour and Lord, because these are fruits of His Death having been for them !

 

[savedbygrace57]

What is Savation by works or by keeping of Law ?

It is very very rare that one is found to truly believe in Salvation by Grace apart from works or commandment keeping which is Law. Let me make it plain and simple for you, Salvation is by works or by law keeping whenever in our thinking, that the affairs of Salvation are governed by that work or law principle, ingrained in each of us by nature " This do and thou shalt live", Yes it is the do and live principle Lk 10:27,28

27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.

28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

Deut 4:1

Now therefore hearken, O Israel, unto the statutes and unto the judgments, which I teach you, for to do them, that ye may live, and go in and possess the land which the LORD God of your fathers giveth you.

Yes even if it is obeying the Law or Command to Repent Acts 17:30 or to believe Acts 16:30-31

30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Or water baptism Acts 2:38

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 10:48

And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Now if that is one's thinking, that by obeying any command of this nature, is the basis , the prerequisite for one to get saved, then you are saved by works of the law or works of law, this thinking proves that one is still married to the Law, it does not matter their profession to be of Christ, this type thinking betrays that confession, and such a one is a debtor to do the whole law to Live ! Christ profits you nothing !

 

[savedbygrace57]

Ones Believing is the Work of God !


Jn 6:29

29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.


Folks the end result in God giving His Son for those He saves from their sins, is their believing in Him whom He sent to do that, to save them from their Sins !

That is God would not have His Son die for nought, but that all those He died for would come to Faith in Him that died for them, and that is the Work of God. Faith to believe in Christ as He is set forth in the Gospel, is worked in one by God Himself [The Holy Spirit of God], the Operation of His Power Eph 1:19 and Col 2:12, So it is the Faith of the New Creation or Creature that performs the act of Believing, its done by the Workmanship of God the Spirit Eph 2:10 ! So it is, that whosoever is believing in Him [Christ] by the Power of the Holy Spirit, shall have [be in possession of] Everlasting Life, for they did not earn it because of an performed condition, but they were in possession of it when they began to believe ! Jn 6:47

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. In other words, The believing on Him is evidence of that one being in possession of Everlasting Life by the Spirit dwelling in him !

 

[savedbygrace57]

Thou doest well !

James 2:19

19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

That believing in Christ is a work, a doing well, can be seen here by this scripture, even though this is about believing in the existence of God, it nevertheless presents to us the principal of doing, which is a work.

The word for doest here is the greek word poieō and means:


to make

a) with the names of things made, to produce, construct, form, fashion, etc.

b) to be the authors of, the cause

c) to make ready, to prepare

d) to produce, bear, shoot forth

e) to acquire, to provide a thing for one's self

f) to make a thing out of something

g) to (make i.e.) render one anything

1) to (make i.e.) constitute or appoint one anything, to appoint or ordain one that

2) to (make i.e.) declare one anything

h) to put one forth, to lead him out

i) to make one do something

1) cause one to

j) to be the authors of a thing (to cause, bring about)

2) to do

a) to act rightly, do well

1) to carry out, to execute

b) to do a thing unto one

1) to do to one

c) with designation of time: to pass, spend

d) to celebrate, keep

1) to make ready, and so at the same time to institute, the celebration of the passover

e) to perform: to a promise


The word is used for work or joined to works several times as per here:

Matt 7:22

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?[/B]


Matt 23:3

3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

Jn 7:3

3 His brethren therefore said unto him, Depart hence, and go into Judaea, that thy disciples also may see the works that thou doest.

So it is, those who believe and teach that salvation is contingent upon ones believing, in God or in Christ, or in the Gospel then that one believes and promotes a salvation by works, by doing well !

James 2:19

19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

If we recall, this very similar statement was made to one cain here Gen 4:7

If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

If we base our Salvation and acceptance with God upon our doing well, then are hopes are built upon the sandy grounds of a works salvation, and unless God delivers us, we are bound to hear these words Matt 7:22-23

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

 

[savedbygrace57]

That we should live unto righteousness !

1 Pet 2:24

24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

The end of Christ's Death or the bearing of our sins on the Tree, not for everyone, but for God's Elect 1 Pet 1:2

2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

The end design was that we should Live unto Righteousness, that is a Life converted to God or to live by Faith, if this end was not obtained, in this life, for each and everyone Christ bare their sins, then His Death was failure to the Purpose of God, but if it was not a failure, which I do testify it was not, then all whom die in their sins unconverted and consequently all who meet with Eternal Damnation Matt 25:41; Matt 7:23, then He did not bare their sins in His Body on the Tree !

Christ's Death is a Saving Death, a Converting Death ! To deny this is Antichrist !

 

[savedbygrace57]

Acts 13 :48

48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

What is meant by this sacred passage of scripture ? For certain it stands for God's Predestination and Individual Election of men to Salvation in Jesus Christ, and its indicative of only individual persons and that not all without exception, so it is phrased " as many as" and by this eternal decree grace was secured for them to believe by grace Acts 18:27

27 And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace: Or believed because of Grace. Grace must receive the credit for anyone believing the True Gospel !

 

[savedbygrace57]

The False faith today of multitudes of deceived souls is this, they profess faith in Christ, but not that which sees Christ as accomplishing Salvation and having it bestowed upon the Elect of God, but that He did die for sin, and then gives every man a chance , a opportunity to get saved, by their acceptable acts of faith and or repentance, acts of theirs which secure unto them Eternal Salvation, that is what passes for the Faith of God's Elect today. This is a false gospel !