[_ Old Earth _] Geocentricity versus Heliocentricity

[Green Man]

Good morning[smile].
People who cannot be ethical/have good morals without the support of a religious dogma are to be feared[these kinds of people will usually just reinterpret/use scripture to justify their wickedness anyway.]. That looks like it's only a few steps away from admitting that you're only good because you're afraid of going to Hell if your caught being bad[I actually once knew a Christian who told me that if it weren't for the Bible, that he'd be murdering lots of people. :shocked!He actually thought he was going to convince me with this revelation that this is why all people should be saved/born again Christians.]. As all of the sociopathic, cruelest, and willfully ignorant people I've met in life so far have been self proclaimed Born-again Christians, religion/faith in God obviously isn't the end-all answer against social ills.

Not that this has anything to do with Cosmology[smile].

 

[jasoncran]

Good morning[smile].
People who cannot be ethical/have good morals without the support of a religious dogma are to be feared[these kinds of people will usually just reinterpret/use scripture to justify their wickedness anyway.]. That looks like it's only a few steps away from admitting that you're only good because you're afraid of going to Hell if your caught being bad[I actually once knew a Christian who told me that if it weren't for the Bible, that he'd be murdering lots of people. :shocked!He actually thought he was going to convince me with this revelation that this is why all people should be saved/born again Christians.]. As all of the sociopathic, cruelest, and willfully ignorant people I've met in life so far have been self proclaimed Born-again Christians, religion/faith in God obviously isn't the end-all answer against social ills.

Not that this has anything to do with Cosmology[smile].

nobody come to christ who is whole and doesnt have problems. they that dont dont need him and arent human.


i challenge you do this.
dont curse, dont watch tv and dont post anything on the toe, and also dont have sex and dont have anything that you have to have save for everday vital needs and you will find that you cant do it.

ie anything listed as sin.mr, unbeliever if you are right and christianity is wrong why then are you here? surely in the everglades theres some christians near you. pointless to argue over God is wrong or doesnt exist day in day out. what do you have to prove? i dont vist athiest or pagan forums just to prove them wrong. i dont even bother with athiests that much unless they post on what i'm talking about.

 

[jasoncran]

I would suggest that the redeeming feature of human beings is that we can give meaning to our lives. Morality and ethics do not stem from religion, but from within human beings themselves and the strucures they have created to enable them to live together as social beings.

Evolutionary development is not a wholly random process. It is guided by the process of natural selection.

Nihilism is not the only alternative to belief in supernatural deities.

That 'something' is human society and the ethical and moral values that we as human beings have developed. No one gave us morality, it is something that we developed for ourselves out of the relationships that bind us together as social beings. There is ample research amongst social animals that demonstrate analogues of behaviour amongst them that in human society we categorize as ethical and moral and that religionists appear to believe is a unique property of their faith.

lol, i gotta love that, so let me guess when you drive you just let gravity guide your driving? a law implies order,


in basic computer language the rnd(100) was telling the computer to set 0 to 100 and you could graph that etc. why then wasnt that called unrandomn?

agian faith we are here just because we are here.it just so happen we survived something and didnt die off per that near extinctson,

in your world good or bad is for here and now. men die out all that we did is GONE! ultimately pointless, nihilism is the logical conclusion all others are illogical.

straw man for you say that i said that its randomn. the mutations are randomn and if say one growth of cells that is causes a large growth that doesnt work the creature dies. ie cancer

a good example is the so called benefecial mutation called sickle cell trait, sure you wont get malaria, but 13 other diseases! heres a just a few.

so if one was a man or women with that in africa you dindnt live long. how many hominids would have to die before nature got it right? a bunch


Sickle Cell Trait

 

[jasoncran]

that link listed these

1. Splenic infarction at high altitude, with exercise, or with hypoxemia
2. Isothenuria with loss of maximal renal concentrating ability
3. Hematuria secondary to renal papillary necrosis
4. Fatal exertional heat illness with exercise
5. Sudden idiopathic death with exercise
6. Glaucoma or recurrent hyphema following a first episode of hyphema
7. Bacteruria in women
8. Bacteruria or pyelonephritis associated with pregnancy
9. Renal medullary carcinoma in young people (ages 11 to 39 years)
10. Early onset of end stage renal disease from autosomal dominant polycystic kidney disease

Increased risk of pulmonary embolism among older hospitalized patients and adverse outcomes from intrathoracic

 

[lordkalvan]

lol, i gotta love that, so let me guess when you drive you just let gravity guide your driving? a law implies order...

In science a 'law' is a description of the way in which a phenomenon is observed to impact its surroundings, such that all observations of the same phenomenon are seen to comply with that 'law'. 'Order' exists only in so far as observers (us) endow that phenomenon with 'orderly' or 'ordering' qualities.

in basic computer language the rnd(100) was telling the computer to set 0 to 100 and you could graph that etc. why then wasnt that called unrandomn?

Not quite sure what you mean here. The generation of numbers is random within the parameters set.

agian faith we are here just because we are here.it just so happen we survived something and didnt die off per that near extinctson,

No, not faith, just a conclusion based on the fact that we are here.

in your world good or bad is for here and now.

But also good or bad in how it impacts on those who will come after us. Do you imagine that humanists have no consideration for their children, grandchildren and their descendants?

men die out all that we did is GONE! ultimately pointless...

No. Why should it be pointless? Unless you think that we regard our children and our children's children and their children and so on, our neighbours, friends and fellow human beings, their hopes, aspirations and dreams for the future as worthless.

...nihilism is the logical conclusion all others are illogical.

With all due apologies, this is quite simply arrant nonsense. Humanists care for their fellow human beings as much as anyone.

straw man for you say that i said that its randomn. the mutations are randomn and if say one growth of cells that is causes a large growth that doesnt work the creature dies. ie cancer

If it is a strawman then what am I to take from your comment about 'the brain in the humans isnt so easy just say it happen overnight as there no way it could have randomn formation of lobes'? You seemed to be implying that I regarded the human brain as simply a product of random forces. If I misunderstood your meaning, I apologize.

a good example is the so called benefecial mutation called sickle cell trait, sure you wont get malaria, but 13 other diseases! heres a just a few.

So which poses the greater risk to the individual? The near certainty of catching malaria or the increased likelihood of suffering from the listed maladies? Can you quantify the risk factors?

so if one was a man or women with that in africa you dindnt live long. how many hominids would have to die before nature got it right? a bunch

I'm not sure what you are trying to say. There is no 'right' or 'wrong' in nature. Beneficial traits are simply more likely to be passed on to descendants, because beneficial traits make it more likely for an organism to survive and breed. Those beneficial traits may come with a downside as well. Some demonstrably non-beneficial mutations (Huntington's chorea, for example) appear to have been 'weeded' by our species so that its deleterious effects only impact individuals after their optimum breeding age.

 

[Green Man]

Good afternoon everyone[smile].
Jasoncran post#102
It is good to hear from you again, Jasoncran[smile]. Coping with the mid-day heat and humidity well?

As for your challenge, I could do and not do all of that[sounds just like one of my usual camping trips actually], but why in the world would I want to? What is my motivation to accept your challenge? Why is it important? Were those things listed within your challenge "sins", or have I misunderstood you? And if I didn't, then how did having sex or talking about The Theory of Evolution end up in there?

Also, what do you mean by calling me an unbeliever? It may interest you to know that as a Polytheist, I see no reason why not to believe in your chosen Deity[I will pray to him sometimes on behalf of Christian friends and family members.]. Although my beliefs are no doubt different than yours in regards to this Deity, that does not automatically turn me into one who denies the existence of said Deity. We can get into this a little deeper within another, more appropriate thread if you so wish.
Also, I never said that Christianity is "wrong"[in what sense?]. It's just not right for me. This isn't a theological contest, a "my religion is better that your religion" game, you know, at least it isn't to me. As I stated within my introduction, I am here because I am interested in people who are different than myself. Interacting with a variety of people helps me to learn new things and become a wiser and more well-rounded person. It's also amusing for me at times.
Why, are you trying to drive me away? Have I not been polite enough to the other posters?
Am I not just the kind of person that "true-believer" Christians should seek out to save the soul of? If you could save the soul of a Pagan, why, just think of how that deed would glorify your God. If anything the bragging rights alone might make it worthwhile. You have a grand opportunity on your hands here.
You could at least try.

"surely in the everglades there's some christians near you."
Of course! Christians are everywhere, even within my own family. It's only about the most popular religion in the entire continent[grin].
And who specifically is making the argument day in and day out that God is wrong or doesn't exist? I never made any such arguments. So far, all I've mainly done is point out that some of the posters here seem to have a very poor understanding of The Natural Sciences.
"i don't visit atheist or pagan forums just to prove them wrong."
And I don't come to Christian chat forums just to prove people wrong[they can do that all on their own, should anyone be reading who actually understands/recognizes the mistakes that are being made within a post]. It's not my fault if some people think that the Solar System is Heliocentric, or don't know that evolution is a reality. What would you rather me do,...just...allow people to remain ignorant, and share said ignorance with others? I'm trying to help people.
Have there been complaints against me?
Have you ever been to any Atheist or Pagan Forums to socialize and learn/study?
If not, then why? Scared[grin]? Be polite, and you will usually be welcomed. You may discover many new things as well. I can give you the addresses of a few websites/chat forums if you wish. The Pagans and Witches at the other chat forum I attend will welcome you with open arms as long as you're respectful/polite. Just think of how many souls you will have access to to win over for your Christ[smile,wink,wink.].

 

[jasoncran]

Good afternoon everyone[smile].
Jasoncran post#102
It is good to hear from you again, Jasoncran[smile]. Coping with the mid-day heat and humidity well?

As for your challenge, I could do and not do all of that[sounds just like one of my usual camping trips actually], but why in the world would I want to? What is my motivation to accept your challenge? Why is it important? Were those things listed within your challenge "sins", or have I misunderstood you? And if I didn't, then how did having sex or talking about The Theory of Evolution end up in there?

Also, what do you mean by calling me an unbeliever? It may interest you to know that as a Polytheist, I see no reason why not to believe in your chosen Deity[I will pray to him sometimes on behalf of Christian friends and family members.]. Although my beliefs are no doubt different than yours in regards to this Deity, that does not automatically turn me into one who denies the existence of said Deity. We can get into this a little deeper within another, more appropriate thread if you so wish.
Also, I never said that Christianity is "wrong"[in what sense?]. It's just not right for me. This isn't a theological contest, a "my religion is better that your religion" game, you know, at least it isn't to me. As I stated within my introduction, I am here because I am interested in people who are different than myself. Interacting with a variety of people helps me to learn new things and become a wiser and more well-rounded person. It's also amusing for me at times.
Why, are you trying to drive me away? Have I not been polite enough to the other posters?
Am I not just the kind of person that "true-believer" Christians should seek out to save the soul of? If you could save the soul of a Pagan, why, just think of how that deed would glorify your God. If anything the bragging rights alone might make it worthwhile. You have a grand opportunity on your hands here.
You could at least try.

"surely in the everglades there's some christians near you."
Of course! Christians are everywhere, even within my own family. It's only about the most popular religion in the entire continent[grin].
And who specifically is making the argument day in and day out that God is wrong or doesn't exist? I never made any such arguments. So far, all I've mainly done is point out that some of the posters here seem to have a very poor understanding of The Natural Sciences.
"i don't visit atheist or pagan forums just to prove them wrong."
And I don't come to Christian chat forums just to prove people wrong[they can do that all on their own, should anyone be reading who actually understands/recognizes the mistakes that are being made within a post]. It's not my fault if some people think that the Solar System is Heliocentric, or don't know that evolution is a reality. What would you rather me do,...just...allow people to remain ignorant, and share said ignorance with others? I'm trying to help people.
Have there been complaints against me?
Have you ever been to any Atheist or Pagan Forums to socialize and learn/study?
If not, then why? Scared[grin]? Be polite, and you will usually be welcomed. You may discover many new things as well. I can give you the addresses of a few websites/chat forums if you wish. The Pagans and Witches at the other chat forum I attend will welcome you with open arms as long as you're respectful/polite. Just think of how many souls you will have access to to win over for your Christ[smile,wink,wink.].

i am far more knowledge into the occult then you can ever imagine. i was once was into some pyschic things ie channeling and mind probing.

i apologise for the brashness. prayer thank god for it. i know where you live theres a small witch commune that is into some stuff. florida these days seems to have an energy shift like i never seen nor cared for, perhaps that gentlemen who wanted it and meditated on it got his wish. i assume that you cast white spells?

 

[Green Man]

Good afternoon ladies and gentlemen[smile].
Hello Jasoncran, it is good to hear back from you, even if none of my questions were answered.
You have far more knowledge into the Occult than I can imagine? Well, o.k.
Good for you, then[smile]. I didn't know there were any communes around here[And in this day and age? I always think of the 1960's and 70's when I hear the word 'commune', ha.ha.], let alone a "witch" commune. Perhaps you can personal message me sometime and tell me all about it.
"I assume that you cast white spells?"
Well, not that this has anything to do with the topic of this thread, but as you should know, magical power is an entirely neutral force, much like electricity, so there isn't really any such thing as "black" or "white" magic save for in the judgments of the individual who's either on the giving or receiving end of it. And as you get what you give, in a manner of speaking, I am most inclined/motivated not to anything of a negative/destructive nature....at least not to other people.
Most of what I do could probably just be labeled as "prayers of gratitude".

 

[jasoncran]

i have been reading on science articles elsewhere. i will post any revalant finding on human/ chimp brain devolopment. and common descent from the common ancestor. of course so far any mutation that has occured in any of the 46 chromosome has some potential for brain disorder to it. as i listed with the so called beneficial sickle cell trait.

no thanks. i have three forums that i am part of now.

 

[jasoncran]

In science a 'law' is a description of the way in which a phenomenon is observed to impact its surroundings, such that all observations of the same phenomenon are seen to comply with that 'law'. 'Order' exists only in so far as observers (us) endow that phenomenon with 'orderly' or 'ordering' qualities.

Not quite sure what you mean here. The generation of numbers is random within the parameters set.

No, not faith, just a conclusion based on the fact that we are here.

But also good or bad in how it impacts on those who will come after us. Do you imagine that humanists have no consideration for their children, grandchildren and their descendants?

No. Why should it be pointless? Unless you think that we regard our children and our children's children and their children and so on, our neighbours, friends and fellow human beings, their hopes, aspirations and dreams for the future as worthless.

With all due apologies, this is quite simply arrant nonsense. Humanists care for their fellow human beings as much as anyone.

If it is a strawman then what am I to take from your comment about 'the brain in the humans isnt so easy just say it happen overnight as there no way it could have randomn formation of lobes'? You seemed to be implying that I regarded the human brain as simply a product of random forces. If I misunderstood your meaning, I apologize.

So which poses the greater risk to the individual? The near certainty of catching malaria or the increased likelihood of suffering from the listed maladies? Can you quantify the risk factors?

I'm not sure what you are trying to say. There is no 'right' or 'wrong' in nature. Beneficial traits are simply more likely to be passed on to descendants, because beneficial traits make it more likely for an organism to survive and breed. Those beneficial traits may come with a downside as well. Some demonstrably non-beneficial mutations (Huntington's chorea, for example) appear to have been 'weeded' by our species so that its deleterious effects only impact individuals after their optimum breeding age.

most mutations are neutral and harmful. to care for ones fellow man is worthless if all that you do die and nothing they do lasts.

when you die who will remember you 100 yrs from now? no one! meaning less.

theres a whole book in the bible that a king wrote on that.. and concluded on that. if the earth dies out and whole species is dead the universe skips along just fine. so humanism is indeed pointless if you really logically know that theres nothing out there. which i cant say theres not or nor you.

uh deaths from sickle cell trait

2 million persons in the united states have sickle cell trait, do the math on that ratio of disease that they can have.
Wande Fights for Sickle Cell Anemia

 

[lordkalvan]

most mutations are neutral and harmful.

Most are neutral. Harmful mutations do not tend to get passed on; beneficial ones do. Some beneficial ones have negative aspects that are outweighed by the positive ones.

...to care for ones fellow man is worthless if all that you do die and nothing they do lasts.

Why do you imagine that caring is worthless absent religious belief? Other than our genetic heritage, very few of us pass on very much that lasts for very long.

when you die who will remember you 100 yrs from now? no one! meaning less.

I have no idea who my great-great grandparents were. Does that mean their lives were worthless because of that? Life has the meaning that we endow it with.

theres a whole book in the bible that a king wrote on that.. and concluded on that. if the earth dies out and whole species is dead the universe skips along just fine. so humanism is indeed pointless if you really logically know that theres nothing out there. which i cant say theres not or nor you.

Life can have its own meaning. It is what we make of it ourselves, not vague promises of an imaginary paradise if we are 'good' or eternal suffering if we are 'bad' (according to one set of arbitrary criteria rather than another).

uh deaths from sickle cell trait

But those who only inherit one copy of the gene have a significant advantage in areas where malaria is endemic.

2 million persons in the united states have sickle cell trait, do the math on that ratio of disease that they can have.

And do the maths for those who live in malaria-endemic parts of the world and tell me the relative risk factors.

 

[jasoncran]

Most are neutral. Harmful mutations do not tend to get passed on; beneficial ones do. Some beneficial ones have negative aspects that are outweighed by the positive ones.

Why do you imagine that caring is worthless absent religious belief? Other than our genetic heritage, very few of us pass on very much that lasts for very long.

I have no idea who my great-great grandparents were. Does that mean their lives were worthless because of that? Life has the meaning that we endow it with.

Life can have its own meaning. It is what we make of it ourselves, not vague promises of an imaginary paradise if we are 'good' or eternal suffering if we are 'bad' (according to one set of arbitrary criteria rather than another).

But those who only inherit one copy of the gene have a significant advantage in areas where malaria is endemic.

And do the maths for those who live in malaria-endemic parts of the world and tell me the relative risk factors.

in africa, sickle anemia kills far more then malaria
www.fightingmalaria.org

gene coded for the manufacture of abnormal hemoglobin, the "working" constituent of red blood cells, causes sickle cell anemia. It is thought that aboriginal Vendoids, who left their native India and came to Africa, introduced sickle cell to Africa around 4000 years ago21. When a child inherits sickle cell genes from both parents, the resulting anemia can cause eventual death. However if only one parent passes on the abnormal gene and the other contributes a normal hemoglobin gene, the resultant "diluted" sickle cell anemia protects against the effects of P. falciparum malaria.
Although sickle cell children are just as likely to contract malaria as non-sickle cell children, the effects of the disease are less severe, and the duration of the malaria attack is likely to be shorter. As sickle cell children grow up, they will have greater acquired immunity to the disease and are more likely to survive the disease than non-sickle cell people.
A recent study in the Lancet22 found that the sickle cell gene, "...provides significant protection against all-cause mortality, severe malarial anemia and high density parasitemia. This significant reduction in mortality was detected between the ages of 2 and 16 months, the highest risk period for severe malarial anemia in this area. These data are important in understanding the role of malaria in the selection and maintenance of the sickle cell gene."

they still get it. and lets look at death rates from malaria to in africa 801,000
theres no stats at present for the other diseases from sickle cell trait.

 

[lordkalvan]

^ I'm not altogether sure what point you are making, Jason. The sickle cell mutation has benefits for those in malaria-endemic regions that, in terms of the regional population, outweighs the negative effects of the deleterious features associated with sickle-cell anaemia. Even those suffering from sickle-cell anaemia have a life expectancy into their forties, which is well past the age of fertility for both men and women. The bipedal posture of human beings is a largely beneficial adaptation, but it comes with a number of deleterious side-effects. Nature is an engineer that does the best it can with the parts it has; if some of the results seem a little less than optimum, that is scarcely to be wondered at.

 

[jasoncran]

^ I'm not altogether sure what point you are making, Jason. The sickle cell mutation has benefits for those in malaria-endemic regions that, in terms of the regional population, outweighs the negative effects of the deleterious features associated with sickle-cell anaemia. Even those suffering from sickle-cell anaemia have a life expectancy into their forties, which is well past the age of fertility for both men and women. The bipedal posture of human beings is a largely beneficial adaptation, but it comes with a number of deleterious side-effects. Nature is an engineer that does the best it can with the parts it has; if some of the results seem a little less than optimum, that is scarcely to be wondered at.

can you tell me how many hominids evolved in africa, uh most of these sickle trait kills you as you still have the issue with oxygen its a big issue as we lost an athlete to that. 40? really do we know that then? population then was how large?
how about the early hominids didnt have medicine! my grandpa born 1907 d 1991 was one of six and had diptheria six times and nearly died from each hit and he lost three siblings to child hood disease so how many early hominids were they so that by numbers could survive?

that is very revalant question as i wont buy we just survived, and we are here.

i am unaware if the other primates can get malaria or sickle cell but the point is that without medical intervention if the sickle cell trait doesnt get you malaria is still probable and you still may die. likewise those with sickle trait breed with those that the have the trait then sickle anemia is another possibility.

 

[lordkalvan]

can you tell me how many hominids evolved in africa...

If you mean the early population of Homo sapiens, then no. Obviously early populations were large enough to allow for the comparatively rare event of fossilization of remans to occur. Also, research into minimum viable populations of large animals suggests that the population most likely cannot have fallen below 500-4,000 individuals. Some researchers into genetic bottlenecks suggest that the Toba supervolcano catastrophe reduced the human population to around 15,000.

uh most of these sickle trait kills you as you still have the issue with oxygen its a big issue as we lost an athlete to that. 40?

Two copies of the gene will most likely kill you in your mid-40s, but one copy is not fatal. In the kind of societies we are talking about (small hunter-gatherer groups), life expectancy generally was around mid-30s to mid-40s. As far as the species is concerned, once you have done your job and bred, then you have fulfilled your genetic duty: a genetic trait that will kill you around the time you would expect to die anyway, but that gives you a significant advantage of surviving a disease that would kill you in infancy or before yo can breed, is a beneficial trait (for the species).

really do we know that then? population then was how large?
how about the early hominids didnt have medicine! my grandpa born 1907 d 1991 was one of six and had diptheria six times and nearly died from each hit and he lost three siblings to child hood disease so how many early hominids were they so that by numbers could survive?

See above.

that is very revalant question as i wont buy we just survived, and we are here.

That fact that we are here is evidence that we, as a species, 'just survived' (unlike Homo habilis, for example).

i am unaware if the other primates can get malaria or sickle cell but the point is that without medical intervention if the sickle cell trait doesnt get you malaria is still probable and you still may die. likewise those with sickle trait breed with those that the have the trait then sickle anemia is another possibility.

There are over 200 species of malaria, only five of which infect humans. The parasite which causes malignant malaria in human beings has been identified in gorillas, for example:

BBC News - Malignant malaria found in apes

Monkeys provide a 'malaria reservoir' for the human disease in SE Asia:

Monkeys provide malaria reservoir for human disease in Southeast Asia

 

[jasoncran]

so we are here, is you statement. uh that is only one disease, i'm sure there were more then one disease that killed men. and hominids from mutations or other natural genes.

ok so women wouldnt been able to work as much as well they would loose three or more babies in their life time not to mention the fact that pregnancy is stressful on their bodies.my wife lost some teeth when she had her kids. that isnt uncommon.

what is the proposed reprodictive rate for hominids? say lucy and ardi. which we cant tell. you evo bias presumes that we came that way.

 

[lordkalvan]

so we are here, is you statement. uh that is only one disease, i'm sure there were more then one disease that killed men. and hominids from mutations or other natural genes.

They still do. I am not sure what point you are trying to make. Clearly Homo sapiens survived whatever vicissitudes came its way as a species.

ok so women wouldnt been able to work as much as well they would loose three or more babies in their life time not to mention the fact that pregnancy is stressful on their bodies.my wife lost some teeth when she had her kids. that isnt uncommon.

I think it varies from woman to woman and also according to their expectations: Victorian society ladies probably had a different childbirth experience from pioneer wives on the North American frontiers.

what is the proposed reprodictive rate for hominids? say lucy and ardi. which we cant tell. you evo bias presumes that we came that way.

Well, we can look at other primates. Most primates bear at most two infants; often female fertility is inhibited until weaning. Whatever the case, evolutionary hypotheses about early hominid populations offer more credibility in the way of minimum viable populations than do 8 inter-related global flood survivors (only 6 of whom constituted breeding couples, apparently).

 

[Green Man]

Good afternoon everyone[smile].
I never understood the appeal of believing that the entire modern human race was the product of multi-generational inbreeding, twice[After being expelled from The Garden of Eden, and then again after the global flood], as compared to being a progressive product of evolution, beautifully connected with all the worlds other life-forms.
An over developed sense of pride, perhaps?