Giving up

[francisdesales]

I will answer your questions one more time, so pay strict attention, otherwise you will miss the truth again.

One more time? You'll have to point me to when you answered them before this post, Solo...

Many will come to Jesus and say Lord, Lord after which they will expound on what they have done. Jesus responds to them to depart from Him, and that they work iniquity or wickedness. Notice that Jesus says that he NEVER KNEW THEM. These who say Lord, Lord have never been born again. They were never saved. They have never been children of God. Jesus NEVER KNEW THEM.

This has nothing to do with whether a person was "born again" or not. This is speaking about entering the Kingdom, not being born again... You are placing your own theology into the verse. Quite clearly, it says "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."

Jesus says nothing about "being born again" here - actually, nowhere in the entire Gospel of Matthew...

Thus, Jesus is saying that only those who OBEY the Word of God will enter the Kingdom, not those who talk a lot about how much they were supposedly "saved".

Let's look at 1 John 3:23 next. The commandment that Jesus gives is that we should do two things; first we should believe on the name of Jesus Christ whereby we will become born of God and receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and second to love one another.

Wonderful. You now admit that one must do MORE than simply "believe on the name of Jesus". I had hoped that you would read the rest of 1 John 3:23, the part where it says "AND LOVE ONE ANOTHER" Thus, merely believing on the name of Jesus is NOT ENOUGH to say one has Jesus Christ abiding within him. That is what I have been saying all along.

Now we will look at 1 Corinthians 3:17. It is very important when studying the Scriptures to take everything in context. Chapters and verses within Scripture come in handy for reference sake, but they allow for doctrines to come into being by presenting scripture in bits and pieces.

Your explanation glosses over something very important... Paul is addressing CHRISTIANS, SAVED CHRISTIANS in 1 Cor 3:17. He has been speaking about those who foment dissension for the several chapters leading up to 1 Cor 3:17. And what does he say about CHRISTIANS?

If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are

ANY! IF ANY MAN defiles the Temple (the Church), him shall God DESTROY!

You still don't get it? Paul is addressing those dissenters in the Church, the community of Corinth who argue among themselves. Paul is warning these "saved" Christians that they will be destroyed. I don't know about you, but being DESTROYED does not mean a loss of rewards and a passing through fire while still being saved. Again, you ignore the simple fact that 1 Cor 3:15 and 1 Cor 3:17 cannot be reconciled in ASOS theology.

Now for 1 Corinthians 9:27. ..

Another smoke screen. You continue to ignore the simple fact of what the verse says by trying to take me back 15 verses and tell me about a lost reward?

Paul says he will be DISQUALIFIED. Enough said. If you can't figure out what disqualified means, look it up in the dictionary. It doesn't mean "lesser reward", nor does being DESTROYED, as in 1 Cor 3:17.

According to the Scriptures, sin is "missing the mark" of God's righteousness. All that is "missing the mark" of God's righteousness is sin, therefore all "bad works" is sin. There is no difference.

We agree. And this admittance destroys your stance on 1 Cor 3:15. There is no difference of degrees regarding salvation in OSAS theology. 1 Cor 3:12-17 is speaking about salvation or loss of it.

Perseverance is very important in the life of a born of God believer lest God's chastisement is necessary. Notice this truth in Hebrews how awful the chastisement of God on His children if and when necessary. Does God chastise born of God believers so that they are no longer His children? No. He chastises them so that they can become more like His son Jesus Christ. Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith. Those who are not chastised are "sweethearts" and are not "sons".

Is that what you think? God is a Father who holds the big stick over your head ready to beat you with it if you step out of line? Is that why you "persevere"?

I see our views of God are quite different. Mine is a loving Father. I persevere in loving Him in return, due to His graces that I cooperate with. Yours is an envious God ready to cast lightning bolts on people for stepping out of line...

So according to this Scripture, does SALVATION through faith come first after which believers walk in Good works created in Christ Jesus? Another fact is that without the foundation of this faith, the foundation that Jesus Christ laid, that a born of God believer is building his temple upon; there can be no good works through faith. The evidence of one having the saving faith of Jesus Christ in ones life is the good works which manifest the faith through faith.

Again, you are confused with the Bible's use of "salvation". You ALWAYS seem to think it refers to a past event - and thus, your future is secure. Nothing could be further from the truth - if you choose not to obey the will of the Father - Mat 7:21.

Say "Lord, Lord" all you want. But only those who OBEY God through faith working in love will enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

Do not get salvation through faith confused with performing good works through faith. These are two different subjects. Without salvation, good works through faith is impossible.

And do not get salvation confused with final justification, or entrance into the Kingdom. Being "saved" refers to our initial healing of sin. It is only the first step in our transformation, one that may or may not FAIL.

Regards

 

[Solo]

And do not get salvation confused with final justification, or entrance into the Kingdom. Being "saved" refers to our initial healing of sin. It is only the first step in our transformation, one that may or may not FAIL.

Regards

Hey you posted the answer to my post at 11:08 just 32 minutes after I posted answers to your questions. That tells me that you looked no farther than the nose on your face as to whether the Scriptures that I posted answered your questions or not.

At least you have not wasted YOUR time.

 

[francisdesales]

Hey you posted the answer to my post at 11:08 just 32 minutes after I posted answers to your questions.
At least you have not wasted YOUR time.

I am glad you appreciate my promptness in answering you...

Regards

 

[Solo]

Hey you posted the answer to my post at 11:08 just 32 minutes after I posted answers to your questions.
At least you have not wasted YOUR time.

I am glad you appreciate my promptness in answering you...

Regards

As is your practice of not adequately comprehending the point of Scripture or my posts, you left out the core meaning of my post, AGAIN.

Let me repost it for your benefit.

Hey you posted the answer to my post at 11:08 just 32 minutes after I posted answers to your questions. That tells me that you looked no farther than the nose on your face as to whether the Scriptures that I posted answered your questions or not.

At least you have not wasted YOUR time.

 

[francisdesales]

As is your practice of not adequately comprehending the point of Scripture or my posts, you left out the core meaning of my post, AGAIN.

All I needed was 32 minutes to respond to the same old rehash on OSAS. You think you were the first one to make those same old tired and flimsy points? Sorry, they fail to explain any of the Scriptures I posted, if you'd bother to read what I wrote.

Here is a hint... Perhaps you should go read the dictionary and find out what the words "destroyed" mean or "disqualified" mean. When someone is disqualified from a race, what "lesser reward" do they receive??? When someone is "destroyed", what position in heaven will they occupy??? Your fantasy OSAS theology is found wanting to even a cursory common sense line of thinking. You can twist and pretend all you want, but you can't escape the plain meaning of Scriptures.

Sorry, nothing personal, but I don't see how a person who has actually read the entire New Testament can come away with OSAS IF one is open to the truth and what is actually THERE in the Bible... It is a flat out false "gospel", one that gets people to jump and say "Lord, Lord, I'm saved!!!". I feel for those people taken in by such nonsense - as the Lord will say "I never knew you and your once-saved-always-saved rubbish". It is the "lazy-man's" teaching for those who want to say "It's all done, now I can get on with my life of (insert your own particular vice)". The devil likes nothing more than a person to let down one's guard, to NOT "work out one's salvation in fear and trembling". Your theology does just that.

Again, when you discover the difference between "being saved" when born again and our final justication at final judgment are two different things, it'll begin to make more sense and you won't have to pretend parts of the Bible don't exist anymore... That is what you are doing by ignoring so many Scripture verses that tell us that salvation can be lost.

Regards

 

[golfjack]

reply

Fran. Look who's calling the kettle black. Catholic Thelogy is wacko Thelogy. Go to your corner and pray 5 rosaries.



May God bless, Golfjack

 

[francisdesales]

Re: reply

Fran. Look who's calling the kettle black. Catholic Thelogy is wacko Thelogy. Go to your corner and pray 5 rosaries.

Golfjack,

Do you think that will make OSAS a valid Scriptural doctrine?

All the rosaries in the world won't help that. You can't pray for something false to be true... BUT I CAN say a rosary for your sake so that you come to open your eyes to the false gospel you believe in regarding OSAS...

I have never believed in OSAS, even before becoming Catholic. However, unred said he did at one time. Perhaps he can explain what devices God used to open his eyes to the truth of what the Gospel teaches. Perhaps someone said a rosary for him!!!

During this discussion, I have not introduced anything about Catholic interpretation. In this matter, I don't think one needs to be Catholic to discover what the Bible is saying here. Naturally, I have found the Catholic Church to be right on target here. But a Protestant in search of the truth will plainly see that OSAS is also false, even if I do not invoke the Church's 2000 year teachings...

I believe unred has already stated that.

Perhaps it might interest you that the Catholics have made various levels of agreements on justification with various Protestants, namely, Anglicans, Lutherans, and Evangelicals. You might be surprised that many Protestant and Catholics agree on many items of soteriological interest. I believe there is plenty of proof on this very thread when PROTESTANTS are denying the false gospel of OSAS, recognizing that the Bible has more to say on salvation than some one-time wishful-thinking fire-and-forget missile of irrevocable grace you are dreaming of...

This isn't a Protestant vs. Catholic issue, golfjack...

Regards

 

[golfjack]

reply

You know what Fran. I am not going to spend my life worrying about how I can lose my salvation. I am going to trust in the blood of our Lord Jesus Christ. He is able and not me. He only had to die one time for me. I believe Jesus is my perfect substitute for sin. My old nature has been changed through the new birth. I have a new nature now, and that is a Nature that God gave me. He created me a New Creature in Christ Jesus. The old me is gone and cast into the depths of the sea. You see, my spirit has been changed radically by the blood of the Lamb. My spirit is perfect, and why would it need healing? No way. I not only can have the victory, but have it now and forevermore. Praise God!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



May God bless, Golfjack

 

[MarkT]

My understanding is warped? Then explain from Scripture the difference between "bad works" and sin.

Francis. You have to admit that your writings are your works. My writings are my works. Indeed everything we say and write comes from what we have stored up in our heart. Thus we see things in the light of Christ when we have his teachings in our heart. What do I mean by that? Well, first of all you have to have understanding to see. You have to understand his teachings. And then, upon his teachings, we build our house. That means God gives us the spiritual material to further build upon Christ. Actually he directs us to the truth. So in fact, the words of God are the materials we seek and by understanding them God gives growth. Our knowledge of God grows. The heavenly thing is that we are like plants. A plant is known by its fruit. Your words are your fruit. Therefore we look at whether your words are true or not. Jesus said, 'Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works' Matthew 5:16 So when you write things to us, we are looking at your 'works'. We are looking for 'good works' which means we're looking for truth, faith, wisdom, knowledge, insight and understanding in your writings. Christ is our wisdom you know. To understand Paul's references to silver, gold and jewels, you have to see how instruction is linked to silver, gold to knowledge and wisdom to jewels. See Proverbs 8:1-36

 

[MarkT]

To those who have will more be given. To those who are weak in the faith, even what they have will be taken away. We know this will happen but does it mean we teach men to fail? No! The prediction is for our ears. When Peter tried to walk on water, did Jesus teach him he could fail? No! The gospel is a positive message. We don't go around polluting the water telling people they can fail. When you say the elect can fail, are you showing yourself to be a man of knowledge? Is it wise? Is it the wisdom of God or the wisdom of the world? Are you gathering or are you scattering?

When Peter declared he wouldn't deny knowing Jesus, Jesus didn't say he would fall into disbelief. He said he would deny knowing him. Jesus never told his disciples they would fall into disbelief.

In fact he told them beforehand to take heed; there would arise many false Christs and false prophets that would lead astray, if possible, the elect. Mark 13:22,23. This is for our ears. So we know we should be watchful but our confidence isn't shaken. It's because we know God is our Father and we know his Son that we know we are sons and brothers.

Does a fig tree bear figs according to its will? Nope. A fig tree bears figs. A good tree bears good fruit and a bad tree bears bad fruit. There's no freewill choosing the heavenly thing.

But this does not mean I'm defending OSAS. I don't know what it means.

 

[francisdesales]

Re: reply

You know what Fran. I am not going to spend my life worrying about how I can lose my salvation. I am going to trust in the blood of our Lord Jesus Christ. He is able and not me.

Me too. What makes you think I spend my life worrying about losing salvation? As long as I abide in Christ, I will inherit heaven.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Francis. You have to admit that your writings are your works. My writings are my works. Indeed everything we say and write comes from what we have stored up in our heart. Thus we see things in the light of Christ when we have his teachings in our heart. What do I mean by that? Well, first of all you have to have understanding to see. You have to understand his teachings. And then, upon his teachings, we build our house. That means God gives us the spiritual material to further build upon Christ. Actually he directs us to the truth. So in fact, the words of God are the materials we seek and by understanding them God gives growth. Our knowledge of God grows. The heavenly thing is that we are like plants. A plant is known by its fruit. Your words are your fruit. Therefore we look at whether your words are true or not. Jesus said, 'Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works' Matthew 5:16 So when you write things to us, we are looking at your 'works'. We are looking for 'good works' which means we're looking for truth, faith, wisdom, knowledge, insight and understanding in your writings. Christ is our wisdom you know. To understand Paul's references to silver, gold and jewels, you have to see how instruction is linked to silver, gold to knowledge and wisdom to jewels. See Proverbs 8:1-36

That is an interesting statement. Yes, I can understand that how one writes reflects what is in one's heart. And we do know that if Christ abides within us, it will be reflected by what we write. However, when discussing theology, I don't think things are so subjective. Everyone would be claiming to proclaim the truth. This cannot be so, since the truth cannot be diametrically opposed. You can't have one person claiming the Spirit and saying "A" and the other claiming the same Spirit and saying "not A". The Spirit of Truth does not contradict Himself.

Thus, subjective truth is one shaky ground. One needs an objective truth, something that is OUTSIDE oneself. We realize that we ALL have three forces going through us at any one moment: God's Spirit, our own, and the devil. It is not so easy for US to determine which one is revealing itself when discussing such things as theology. Sure, we can know by our fruits in action which spirit is prominent. But when explaining theology and our understanding of Scriptures, we find that even the most saintly of persons, even a Mother Teresa or St. Augustine or St. Aquinas CAN be wrong on a particular subject. God does not reveal Himself in such a way to us all. If He did, we would all agree on the subjects of theology...

While some people here believe that if one disagrees with them, the other is bound for hell, I do not think any one of us is in a position to know perfectly the will of God and everything there is to know about Him. Thus, it is really a pointless exercise to condemn someone because their theology doesn't agree with yours. God will judge us on our works, whether we loved others in this world, not whether we knew everything about Him. It is what we do with the knowledge that we possess that matters. Scripture scholars are not going to be the holiest people in heaven, in my opinion.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

When Peter tried to walk on water, did Jesus teach him he could fail? No! The gospel is a positive message. We don't go around polluting the water telling people they can fail. When you say the elect can fail, are you showing yourself to be a man of knowledge? Is it wise? Is it the wisdom of God or the wisdom of the world? Are you gathering or are you scattering?

Are you saying that a false hope and a false gospel should go unabated? What do you think Paul did throughout his various letters to Christian communities? Did he not tell the Galatians about the Judaizers and their errors? The Colossians? The Corinthians? Did Paul just "let things be for the sake of the weak's sensibliities"?

Why does Paul exhort Christians over and over, warning them that THEY can fall? Why do you think giving someone a false sense of security is better than proclaiming the truth - and warning people to be wary, to be alert, to give their lives to Christ at ALL times, not just 20 years ago???

Am I gathering or scattering? I think proclaiming the truth is more important than 21st century relativism that seeks to let all things slide for the sake of "tolerance" and "good feelings around".

When Peter declared he wouldn't deny knowing Jesus, Jesus didn't say he would fall into disbelief. He said he would deny knowing him. Jesus never told his disciples they would fall into disbelief.

Perhaps because He knew they wouldn't. I do not know if you will - and I never say anyone here WILL fall into disbelief. I am merely saying hypothetically, ANYONE can fall, without naming a particular person. Did not Jesus ALSO say...

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Mat 7:21-23

Read this carefully, Mark. Jesus is not telling anyone SPECIFICALLY that they will falter. But He certainly does not pretend people will not fall away. He indeed says some that THINK they are saved will indeed not be saved. He warns us right off, flat out, that making the claim isn't enough. He bears the truth, telling us what must be done - OBEY the Will of the Father.

In fact he told them beforehand to take heed; there would arise many false Christs and false prophets that would lead astray, if possible, the elect. Mark 13:22,23. This is for our ears. So we know we should be watchful but our confidence isn't shaken. It's because we know God is our Father and we know his Son that we know we are sons and brothers.

My intent is not to condemn anyone. My intent is to wake up those who think they cannot falter (cf 1 Cor 10:12). A person who is abiding in Christ will not falter. Thus, if you are loving your neighbor and believe in Christ, then you have nothing to worry about - Christ will continue to call you to Him. But for those who have fallen into serious sin again, there remains the possibility that they will NOT enter heaven. Isn't it more loving to alert such people than to allow them to go to hell - or worse yet, to pretend there is nothing wrong with them???

Does a fig tree bear figs according to its will? Nope. A fig tree bears figs. A good tree bears good fruit and a bad tree bears bad fruit. There's no freewill choosing the heavenly thing.

We aren't trees, Mark. At times, even the most holiest of persons sins. Even Paul himself said he struggled against the flesh. In the end, WE will be judged. Our choices that we made. Not God. God will not be judged because He didn't "give us enough graces" to be holy... We all have the free will to grieve the Holy Spirit.

Regards

 

[MarkT]

That is an interesting statement. Yes, I can understand that how one writes reflects what is in one's heart. And we do know that if Christ abides within us, it will be reflected by what we write. However, when discussing theology, I don't think things are so subjective. Everyone would be claiming to proclaim the truth. This cannot be so, since the truth cannot be diametrically opposed. You can't have one person claiming the Spirit and saying "A" and the other claiming the same Spirit and saying "not A". The Spirit of Truth does not contradict Himself.

Thus, subjective truth is one shaky ground. One needs an objective truth, something that is OUTSIDE oneself. We realize that we ALL have three forces going through us at any one moment: God's Spirit, our own, and the devil. It is not so easy for US to determine which one is revealing itself when discussing such things as theology. Sure, we can know by our fruits in action which spirit is prominent. But when explaining theology and our understanding of Scriptures, we find that even the most saintly of persons, even a Mother Teresa or St. Augustine or St. Aquinas CAN be wrong on a particular subject. God does not reveal Himself in such a way to us all. If He did, we would all agree on the subjects of theology...

While some people here believe that if one disagrees with them, the other is bound for hell, I do not think any one of us is in a position to know perfectly the will of God and everything there is to know about Him. Thus, it is really a pointless exercise to condemn someone because their theology doesn't agree with yours. God will judge us on our works, whether we loved others in this world, not whether we knew everything about Him. It is what we do with the knowledge that we possess that matters. Scripture scholars are not going to be the holiest people in heaven, in my opinion.

Well, the one who doesn't have root in himself is likely to endure for a while and then fall away. That's what Jesus said. Mt. 13:20,21 So I would not agree with you as far as your statement that my words are subjective truth. The Spirit of God doesn't lead us to what you might call subjective truth.

No. Absolutely not. The root must be in you. Don't go following the false prophets who tell you you don't need to understand the words of God. The words are spirit and life. Jesus said you have to be born again. It's not a false doctrine.

However, we know that the cares of the world and the desire for riches can choke the word and it proves unfruitful. This is something we have to guard against. We need the words of God for growth. When we set our minds on the things of this world, we shut out the heavenly things like the understanding that comes from God and knowledge to defeat the arguments of the devil. But, if I'm understanding you, it's not as if we are left alone with only our will to sustain us. The Holy Spirit is our guarantee as Paul said, "He who has prepared us for this very thing" speaking as he does of the house not built with human hands, " is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.

Would God tell us he is not with us? Would he say there is nothing forcing us to believe when we are his slaves? Are we not servants and do we not serve? If God is in you, is he working against himself? Is he weakening the foundation? No. He is building on his foundation. Christ is our foundation. Nothing can move us! God directs our steps, as Paul said, "if the LORD wills" 1 Cor. 4:19 and "I will return to you if God wills". Acts 18:21 Does God tell you you have nothing but freewill or that you can not count on the Holy Spirit?

What does Paul say? "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure". Philippians 2:13

So we are doing his will. Of course we know his will because we are doing it when we shine as lights in the world.

We know the devil wants us to fail but we don't teach men they can fall because there is no one forcing them to believe; as if God isn't with them. God is the one who drew us. He's the one who clothes us, who feeds us. God is our Rock.

The LORD is my shepherd, I shall not want; he makes me lie down in green pastures. He leads me beside still waters; he restores my soul. Ps. 23:1,2

 

[francisdesales]

No. Absolutely not. The root must be in you. Don't go following the false prophets who tell you you don't need to understand the words of God. The words are spirit and life. Jesus said you have to be born again. It's not a false doctrine.

Mark,

I am not quite sure what you mean by "the root must be in you". Are you speaking of the Spirit? Could you explain that?

However, we know that the cares of the world and the desire for riches can choke the word and it proves unfruitful. This is something we have to guard against. We need the words of God for growth. When we set our minds on the things of this world, we shut out the heavenly things like the understanding that comes from God and knowledge to defeat the arguments of the devil. But, if I'm understanding you, it's not as if we are left alone with only our will to sustain us. The Holy Spirit is our guarantee as Paul said, "He who has prepared us for this very thing" speaking as he does of the house not built with human hands, " is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.

Yes, you are correct, the world can choke off the word. That is my concern. It is so easy to fall in line with the "wisdom" of the world. We are constantly bombarded by it. It is nearly impossible to "isolate" ourselves from it, unlike those people like the Essenes who were able to form communities outside of the "world", or even the typical everyday person of 50 AD who did not have mass communication. We are certainly living in a different time, a time where an individual's viewpoints can be expressed and can influence a great number of people with ease.

As such, because of this outside influence, Mark, it can be difficult to separate what is from US, and what is from the Spirit of God. It is not always black and white. Thus, when two people get together and speak theology, both cannot claim the Spirit with such confidence because the Spirit of God cannot contradict. The Spirit helps us to discern God's plan for us, right from wrong and such matters. But does He really come to us and helps us to interpret the Bible? Not in the way that many claim.

Would God tell us he is not with us? Would he say there is nothing forcing us to believe when we are his slaves?

No - but we would know if we sat down and discerned our own lives. God doesn't come out with flashing lights saying "YOU ARE SINNING! BEWARE!" It doesn't work that way. The devil is much more cunning. He gradually enters into our lives, and in time, we begin to justify our actions. When we justify our own sin, it is much more difficult to see that we are, indeed, falling away from God. This is my own experience with myself and with others I know who have fallen away (some have not returned).

Are we not servants and do we not serve? If God is in you, is he working against himself? Is he weakening the foundation? No. He is building on his foundation. Christ is our foundation. Nothing can move us! God directs our steps, as Paul said, "if the LORD wills" 1 Cor. 4:19 and "I will return to you if God wills". Acts 18:21 Does God tell you you have nothing but freewill or that you can not count on the Holy Spirit?

Of course He is working within us. But it doesn't follow that God PREVENTS us from sinning! Can anyone say that they don't sin? Even the GREATEST and HOLIEST of men admit to sinning DAILY! Thus, God WILLINGLY allows us to choose Him or not in every decision we make every day. Certainly, as we grow in Christ, we will more likely than not choose to follow the Lord. However, God never removes free will from us. We ALWAYS have the ability or option to sin. That is fact. Read Paul's struggle in Romans 7, many years after Paul's initial conversion to Christ. He STILL struggled against the flesh, did he not? But it is in this struggle and being successful (with God) that we become more holy.

We know the devil wants us to fail but we don't teach men they can fall because there is no one forcing them to believe; as if God isn't with them. God is the one who drew us. He's the one who clothes us, who feeds us. God is our Rock.

I will respectfully disagree with you, Mark, because Scripture ITSELF does the same thing that I am - telling people that they can fall. Exhorting people to persevere. It is NOT an act of love to allow man the false security of OSAS when it is not true and NOT conducive to building up the life of Christ within us. We are to take the narrow road. Not the wide and easy road. If salvation was so easy, we wouldn't get that indication from the Scriptures. Nor do we get it from our own experience. It is not easy discarding the old man, despite what the OSAS people claim. We still sin. We are commanded to become Holy as God is Holy. We are not told to relax, don't worry about sin. We are told to repent and convert.

An act of love is PREVENTING others from falling, not lying to them and saying "all is alright" as they step into the pit.

Regards

 

[cyberjosh]

Hey Francis,

I believe that we have summed up things fairly well in our PM concerning this topic. But now I would like to invite you to come look at my new thread here which takes an in-depth evaluation of the word "belief/believe(s)" in the context of the Gospels and tries to reach a verdict. It also discusses the Parable of the seed and the sower (mainly the rock that fell on stondy ground). Be warned though it is a bit long, which is an understatement, because I originally wrote it as a paper in a Word document, however I believe it is worth the while to read. TanNinety has, luckily, read it all and he seems to have a fairly good understanding of what I was suggesting, so you can look to his posts also after you read it (if you so choose to do it) to get some clarification. I would just make sure that you have like 10-15 minutes of free-time to do it though because of its length.

I would be most pleased if you took me up on this. But if you don't have the time I understand.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[MarkT]

As such, because of this outside influence, Mark, it can be difficult to separate what is from US, and what is from the Spirit of God. It is not always black and white. Thus, when two people get together and speak theology, both cannot claim the Spirit with such confidence because the Spirit of God cannot contradict. The Spirit helps us to discern God's plan for us, right from wrong and such matters. But does He really come to us and helps us to interpret the Bible? Not in the way that many claim.

Of course the Holy Spirit speaks through us. What did you think? The Holy Spirit really does lead us to understand the Scriptures. It's not about whether anyone agrees with me. Even if no one agreed with me, it would not move me. That's what I mean by having root in yourself.

And speaking of theology, I guess that word 'theology' implies scholarship. It makes me cringe when I hear the knowledge of God being called 'theology'. Please stay away from the scholars. Jesus warned us about the leaven of the Pharisees; the ones who studied the word of God. 'Beware the leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducees. Then they understood that he did not tell them to beware of the leaven of bread, but of the teaching of the Pharisees and the Sadducees' Mt. 16:11,12.

Isaiah said of them, ' Therefore the word of the LORD will be to them precept upon precept, precept upon precept, line upon line, line upon line, here a little, there a little; that they may go and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken." Isaiah 28:13

It a wonderful thing to behold francis. If you could only see it. If you could only see what a mess they have created. It's amazing.

But if you take in even a little bit of their teaching, it will work it's way through your understanding and it will destroy your house. And stay away from the commentaries too!

 

[francisdesales]

Of course the Holy Spirit speaks through us. What did you think? The Holy Spirit really does lead us to understand the Scriptures. It's not about whether anyone agrees with me. Even if no one agreed with me, it would not move me. That's what I mean by having root in yourself.

Sounds like you belong to a church of one, Mark.

Christ ministers to us through a community of believers. This includes understanding what the message of Scripture are. If you believe that the Holy Spirit leads you in contradiction to how He leads the community of believers, then how do you know you are right and John Doe is wrong? Sounds way too subjective. You are confusing an experience of God with your own personal thoughts and ideas.

Regards

 

[MarkT]

Sounds like you belong to a church of one, Mark.

I don't know. It's certainly hard to find anyone with any understanding these days but I think I've found a few. Many are called. Few are chosen. That's the will of God.

Christ ministers to us through a community of believers. This includes understanding what the message of Scripture are. If you believe that the Holy Spirit leads you in contradiction to how He leads the community of believers, then how do you know you are right and John Doe is wrong? Sounds way too subjective. You are confusing an experience of God with your own personal thoughts and ideas.

In that case you should not be teaching francis. You should not be saying anything if the Spirit of God is not speaking through you. But your logic is confusing me. You say I can't know who's right. If I say I'm right, I'm being subjective. So I must be wrong. This is nonsense. If the Spirit is speaking through you, then how can you reject my words on the basis that you don't know who is right and who is wrong? This thinking is coming from darkness.

The question of OSAS is trivially true. I don't know of another way of putting it. 'Saved' by the meaning of the word implies 'always saved'. But that's not what is bothering me.

We warn men the devil can take away their hope and cause them to fall into disbelief. Sin can dim the light. Definitely we need the oil of gladness. A log can get into the eye. Why not say it is possible to fall into disbelief and leave out the freewill part? No one would reject God if they knew God so it is out of ignorance that men perish and not because they have freewill. Who can resist his will? If God made them vessels for destruction, then it is God's will. I agree men can because they have freewill but as John said, 'if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out, that it might be plain that they all are not of us.' 1 John 2:19

 

[Solo]

Good information and passing on of truth, MarkT. Thanks. And BTW, you are not a church of one as you well know. :D