Giving up

[francisdesales]

To Francis (when he returns),

Josh, I'm back... Thanks for your patience.

When I was looking into what we were discussing earlier I tried to apply what you were saying to see what basis we have for hope if we are not guranteed salvation.

We are guaranteed salvation as long as we remain in the Lord Jesus Christ. We know we remain in Christ as long as we obey the Commandments, according to the entire first letter of John. Thus, we know that God will not abandon us...

"And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected" 1 John 2:3-5

Note, when one keeps God's word, God's love is perfected.

"And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment." 1 John 3:22-23

Here, again, we are told to obey God. We are told to not ONLY to "believe that Jesus is God's Son", but to ALSO LOVE one another...

"By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments" 1 John 5:2-3

Again, we know we are of God when we love others, which is Christ's fufillment of the Law given to Moses...

My favorite verse that I use when someone asks me "what must I do to be saved?", I refer them to:

"He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life" 1 John 5:12

Much in keeping with the Johannine writing, John tells us that we must have Christ within us, abiding in us, present to us, so be saved. This is not a one-time status. It is an ongoing process. We are clearly told that we do NOT abide in Christ when we disobey Him or do not act upon His Word...

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven" Mat 7:21

Thus, we must act upon the grace we are given and obey the commands we are given. When we do so, we are doing this in Christ. This is our evidence that we are currently being saved. With God, all things are possible...

I have now discovered that I was on the right track with my extrapolation. I consulted my Dad on this issue and he confirmed many of my sneaking suspicions in a nut shell. First off, both he and I acknowledged that the Bible says that someone can fall away once a believer (remember I said from the very first page that I wasn't dead set 100% on the arguement I was presenting), and that those who persevere to the end will be saved, however, as any good theologian would notice God can keep those who walk by faith, and it is difficult to run away from God, though admittedly possible.

No doubt. We will never know in this world why some respond to God and others don't - and why God doesn't keep others from running from Him. This suggests that God ALLOWS man to utilize free will, does it not?

Now when I asked my Dad then about our basis for hope and joy and rejoicing if we are not guranteed our salvation he said that there was a basis for hope (which makes sense - there has to be) and he said that we can make our mind up ahead of time that we aren't going to give into trials. My Dad asked me, "If someone bust in the door right now and put a gun to your head and said 'Deny Jesus or die' would you do it?" and I said "No."

Well, it is easy to say that, but quite honestly, we can only pray that God gives us the grace to make that response... One REALLY doesn't know how they will act under such pressure until subjected to it. Trust me, I was in the military. There are a lot of things you learn about what you would do or not do when placed in particular situations. There are many Christians who THOUGHT the same thing, but either fled persecution or renounced Christ's name under threat of death. This has happened from the beginning, and was even a source of infighting within the Church during the 200's. "What do we do with Christians who renounced Christ? Do we allow them back into the Church?" Some Bishops didn't think they should. In the end, the Bishop of Rome ruled on the side of leniency.

He said that was because I've already made up my mind to persevere through trials.

Again, that is a bit on the side of rash pretentious thought. You can't say "I will overcome all trials", since you don't know what trials you will face. The way we will overcome trials is to not give up on God and the fact that He will provide a way out. If we place our trust in God, and not ourselves, and persevere, then we most certainly will overcome. But this only happens in trial by fire. It must be suffered and lived through.

God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it. 1 Cor 10:13

He quoted the exchange between Jesus and Peter in John 6:67-69 which says, "Then said Jesus unto the twelve, 'Will ye also go away'? Then Simon Peter answered him, 'Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God'." Peter determined not to go away.

You have given the perfect example of brash promises that are not kept under fire. What exactly did Peter say at the Last Supper to Christ?

"Peter answered and said unto him, Though all men shall be offended because of thee, yet will I never be offended. Jesus said unto him, "Verily I say unto thee, That this night, before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. " Peter said unto him, Though I should die with thee, yet will I not deny thee. Likewise also said all the disciples." Mat 26:33-35

What did Peter do? Where was Peter when Christ was dying? Did the head apostle, the man who declared Jesus as the Messiah, the Son of God, the man who promised to die with Christ - die with Him?

What makes you so sure you would?

We should pray that God gives us the ability to make that proclamation and suffer martyrdom if necessary. But we should not think we WILL if it were to suddenly be thrust upon us...

And the basis of our hope is that, in determining that we will persevere and knowing that God is gracious to empower us to do it with the Holy Spirit which he has places in us, we rejoice because God is righteous to keep his word and promise of salvation. That is our basis for present hope and rejoicing, as Peter later said, "Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, receiving the end of your faithâ€â€the salvation of your souls" (1 Peter 1:8-9). This is also why Paul is so confident about him going to see Jesus, and also why he says, "And the Lord will deliver me from every evil work and preserve me for His heavenly kingdom. To Him be glory forever and ever. Amen!" (2 Timothy 4:18). He was able to say that for himself personally, as we should once we examine ourselves.

I agree that we can rely on God because He is righteous and will reward us as He promised. But He only made such promises to those who keep His Word.

But my Dad did acknowledge that those who heard the word (as on stony ground) really recieved the word with joy but when persecutions arise they fall away. He said that tragically he has seen one of his friends do this, but that he prays that he will come back to the Lord. But my question was largely answered that night, we do have a basis for joy and hope and rejoicing because we can be sure that we will recieve our future salvation if we resolve ahead of time to persevere, which I most certainly have.

Josh, first, I commend you for consulting with your father. You are lucky to have someone who loves you discuss such issues, someone you can trust.

Now, what about your Dad's friend who fell away? Don't you think he at one point had the same thoughts that you have now? This is the whole point of perseverance. It isn't over until its over! We persevere until the end, not until we make some sort of promise that we will never fail!!!

As long as we remain in Christ, He will provide the perseverance necessary to be saved. With God, all things are possible. But remember what Paul told the Corinthian Christians..

Therefore let him that thinks he stands take heed lest he fall 1 Cor 10:12

Thus, we can NEVER presume the future... That is why it is important that we persevere. This perseverance means we are to CONTINUE to obey the Commandment of Christ - to LOVE. As long as we love, Josh, we are guaranteed salvation, because when we truly love for the other's sake, when we give of ourselves to others, we are merely reflecting Christ's working through us, His abiding presence continuing to reach out to the world. While in this state, we are indeed saved.

"He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life" 1 John 5:12

If you are not obeying the Commandments, Josh, do you have the Son?

Brother in Christ

 

[Solo]

And according to John's inspired writing in 1 John what is the commandment that we are to keep? and How do we know if we abide in Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ abides in us? By the Spirit which indwells us when we believe.

22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. 23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. 24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
1 John 3:22-24

Once a person keeps the commandment that we should believe on the name of Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit comes to dwell within us, and begins to change us from the inside out to become more like Jesus Christ as we mature spiritually from day to day. Being sealed by the Holy Spirit is a one time occurrence and lasts until we are redeemed at the return of Jesus Christ.

30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
Ephesians 4:30

11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: 12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
Ephesians 1:11-14

Remember, if we sin after the flesh after being born of the Spirit of God, we have an advocate in Jesus Christ, and He is just to forgive us of our sins on the great work that He did at Calvary two thousand years ago. The new creature that is born of God the Spirit cannot sin, therefore, do not submit to the sinful flesh, but follow the Spirit throughout your life, as we are a purchased possesion meant to walk as Jesus walked serving God all of the days of our life; and when we fall, he is there to pick us up in love to carry on.

9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1 John 1:9

The only way that one can unravel the paradox between one that is born of God does not sin and cannot sin; and one that if one does sin we can receive forgivness of that sin is to understand the walking in the flesh and walking in the Spirit.

Only those born of God have the battle going on within them to walk in the flesh or to walk in the Spirit. Those who walk in the flesh build their house on the foundation of their faith, Jesus Christ, with wood, hay, and stubble; and in the day of Jesus Christ, fire will burn up those works but the believer will be saved.

11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
1 Corinthians 3:11-15

Remember what John wrote concerning a believer's assurance of their salvation:

10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. 11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. 13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
1 John 5:10-13

Once one becomes born of God he should recognize that one is to overcome the old man and live in the new man. One's salvation is already purchased by the work of Jesus Christ, so the born again believer should work the works of God who dwells within him in fear and trembling knowing that these works will either stand for eternity, or be burnt up. Paul gives the believers at Philippi this exhortation as he recognizes that God works within them.

12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
Philippians 2:12-13

 

[francisdesales]

And according to John's inspired writing in 1 John what is the commandment that we are to keep? and How do we know if we abide in Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ abides in us? By the Spirit which indwells us when we believe...

Remember, if we sin after the flesh after being born of the Spirit of God, we have an advocate in Jesus Christ, and He is just to forgive us of our sins on the great work that He did at Calvary two thousand years ago. The new creature that is born of God the Spirit cannot sin, therefore, do not submit to the sinful flesh, but follow the Spirit throughout your life, as we are a purchased possesion meant to walk as Jesus walked serving God all of the days of our life; and when we fall, he is there to pick us up in love to carry on.

Solo,

I agree with what you are saying, that the man born again and who is walking in Christ is assured of salvation. We have an advocate, as 1 John mentions. However, some who were "born again" did NOT return to their advocate. If even ONE person does NOT return to God in humble repentance after initially receiving the Spirit, then the possibility exists that a person can "return to the vomit" of their past life. Thus, we make our salvation assured by REMAINING in Christ.

The only way that one can unravel the paradox between one that is born of God does not sin and cannot sin; and one that if one does sin we can receive forgivness of that sin is to understand the walking in the flesh and walking in the Spirit.

John says that all men sin. Anyone who says they don't is a liar. However, we are given hope of the Advocate who CONTINUES to intercede for us. Christ is right NOW interceding for us in heaven for our current sins. Whether we are walking in the Spirit or walking in the flesh is an indication of whether Christ abides in us or not in the present moment.

Remember what John wrote concerning a believer's assurance of their salvation:

10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. 11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. 13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
1 John 5:10-13

And whom is this assurance given to? Everyone who proclaims with their lips "Lord, Lord"? Or the one who obeys God? I have already shown ample verses from 1 John that we know we are saved when we are obeying God. If we do not obey God, our salvation is not assured.

Once one becomes born of God he should recognize that one is to overcome the old man and live in the new man. One's salvation is already purchased by the work of Jesus Christ, so the born again believer should work the works of God who dwells within him in fear and trembling knowing that these works will either stand for eternity, or be burnt up. Paul gives the believers at Philippi this exhortation as he recognizes that God works within them.

Yes, we should. But many do not. They do NOT persevere in the Spirit - and this is recognizable by their actions, by their disobedience to God. Their lack of faith is shown by their visible works. One's initial salvation has been purchased. We have inherited something freely. But our Father has every right to remove that inheritance from us if we disobey Him willingly.

"How much more, do you think he deserveth worse punishments, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath esteemed the blood of the testament unclean, by which he was sanctified, and hath offered an affront to the Spirit of grace?" Heb 10:29

I would like you to note the words WHICH HE WAS SANCTIFIED... In other words, we are speaking about a Christian who was previously sanctified by God, was justified in His eyes - but has turned away from salvation. Such a person is refused entry into the Kingdom. Even if ONE person undergoes such an action by God, this destroys the concept of OSAS.

No, our past salvation doesn't mean we are automatically saved for heaven in the future. We must persevere in our Lord to be able to enter the Kingdom. We are speaking of the narrow path, the cross to be born daily. Thus the ever-present theme of the New Testament remains - PERSEVERE!

Regards

 

[golfjack]

reply

Fran, What does Hebrews 10:26 say? Notice it says we sin willfully. It doesn't say sins. It also is speaking about believers and saying there is no more sacrifice for sins. The sin is the Unpardonabe sin. I believe it is denying Jesus Christ after one is saved. If a person commits this sin, he cannot be saved again.



May God bless, Golfjack

 

[Fnerb]

Re: reply

Fran, What does Hebrews 10:26 say? Notice it says we sin willfully. It doesn't say sins. It also is speaking about believers and saying there is no more sacrifice for sins. The sin is the Unpardonabe sin. I believe it is denying Jesus Christ after one is saved. If a person commits this sin, he cannot be saved again.



May God bless, Golfjack

Hey Golf,

I believe you are talking about what Jesus mentions in Matthew 12:32. Or what many refer to as the, "unforgivable sin". I don't believe it means that if you commit it you can never be saved again. However, if you do continually commit it, yes you are forfeiting your salvation.

No, our past salvation doesn't mean we are automatically saved for heaven in the future. We must persevere in our Lord to be able to enter the Kingdom. We are speaking of the narrow path, the cross to be born daily. Thus the ever-present theme of the New Testament remains - PERSEVERE!

I agree.

 

[francisdesales]

Re: reply

Fran, What does Hebrews 10:26 say? Notice it says we sin willfully. It doesn't say sins. It also is speaking about believers and saying there is no more sacrifice for sins. The sin is the Unpardonabe sin. I believe it is denying Jesus Christ after one is saved. If a person commits this sin, he cannot be saved again.

Are you trying to say that a Christian CANNOT willfully sin???

That is what us Catholics call a "mortal sin". When one knows something is a serious sin, and does it anyway. It certainly IS a possibility. A person can be a Christian, know it is wrong to commit adultery, and do it anyway. Woudn't you say that is a Christian willfully sinning?

Hebrews 10:26 doesn't say anything about an "unpardonable sin". I will agree that if a person does NOT repent, he will not be forgiven, and has denied Jesus Christ, even if he was already once 'saved' in the past.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Re: reply

I believe you are talking about what Jesus mentions in Matthew 12:32. Or what many refer to as the, "unforgivable sin". I don't believe it means that if you commit it you can never be saved again. However, if you do continually commit it, yes you are forfeiting your salvation.

The "unforgiveable sin" is the one that is never repented of.

ALL sins are forgiveable - otherwise, that makes God's power over sin incomplete. However, God does not offer forgiveness to those who do not ask for it.

Regards

 

[Vic C.]

Hi francisdesales,

Some will say that the unforgiveable sin is the continual denial of the Holy Spirit in one's life unto their death, in effect, denying Jesus Himself.

 

[Fnerb]

Hi francisdesales,

Some will say that the unforgiveable sin is the continual denial of the Holy Spirit in one's life unto their death, in effect, denying Jesus Himself.

Yes francisdesales, this is what I was talking about. Thank you Vic. And yes you are right fran, technically ALL sins are forgiveable. But if you openly and repeatedly deny the very source of forgiveness...well...you know what happens.

 

[Solo]

And according to John's inspired writing in 1 John what is the commandment that we are to keep? and How do we know if we abide in Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ abides in us? By the Spirit which indwells us when we believe...

Remember, if we sin after the flesh after being born of the Spirit of God, we have an advocate in Jesus Christ, and He is just to forgive us of our sins on the great work that He did at Calvary two thousand years ago. The new creature that is born of God the Spirit cannot sin, therefore, do not submit to the sinful flesh, but follow the Spirit throughout your life, as we are a purchased possesion meant to walk as Jesus walked serving God all of the days of our life; and when we fall, he is there to pick us up in love to carry on.

Solo,

I agree with what you are saying, that the man born again and who is walking in Christ is assured of salvation. We have an advocate, as 1 John mentions. However, some who were "born again" did NOT return to their advocate. If even ONE person does NOT return to God in humble repentance after initially receiving the Spirit, then the possibility exists that a person can "return to the vomit" of their past life. Thus, we make our salvation assured by REMAINING in Christ.

The commandment that we are given by Jesus Christ is to believe on the name of Him and to love our brother. Whoever keeps this commandment dwells in Christ, and Christ dwells in them. How do we know that Jesus Christ abides in us? By the Holy Spirit that dwells within us at the time we are born again.

22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. 23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. 24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
1 John 3:22-24

Please explain the meaning of this verse of Scripture which you ignored in the last answer. Those who are born again are sealed by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption.

30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
Ephesians 4:30

11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: 12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
Ephesians 1:11-14

The only way that one can unravel the paradox between one that is born of God does not sin and cannot sin; and one that if one does sin we can receive forgivness of that sin is to understand the walking in the flesh and walking in the Spirit.

John says that all men sin. Anyone who says they don't is a liar. However, we are given hope of the Advocate who CONTINUES to intercede for us. Christ is right NOW interceding for us in heaven for our current sins. Whether we are walking in the Spirit or walking in the flesh is an indication of whether Christ abides in us or not in the present moment.

Jesus Christ abides in those born of God until the day of redemption as a protection of one that is bought by His blood until He can give to the Father all that was given to Him. In the verse of Scripture above we are shown how we are to know that we abide in Christ and Christ abides in us. I will post that portion of Scripture again.

24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
1 John 3:24

Those that are born again and keep the commandment to believe on the name of Jesus Christ and to love his brother know that Christ abides in them and they abide in Christ by the Spirit which Jesus gave them; and the Spirit which Jesus will never take back until the day of redemption.

Remember what John wrote concerning a believer's assurance of their salvation:

10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. 11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. 13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
1 John 5:10-13

And whom is this assurance given to? Everyone who proclaims with their lips "Lord, Lord"? Or the one who obeys God? I have already shown ample verses from 1 John that we know we are saved when we are obeying God. If we do not obey God, our salvation is not assured.

Many individuals proclaim that they know the way to the Kingdom of God or the better utopian existence in the next life; but the truth is that only those who are born again will gain access into the Kingdom of God, life eternal.

The Scripture tells us that those who were once thought of as born of God believers were not born of God at all for if they had been born of God, they would have remained abiding in Christ Jesus. There are two groups of people on the earth today; Christians or Anti-Christians. Those that are not born of God are anti-Christians. John tells us this truth below:

18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
1 John 2:18-19

Once one becomes born of God he should recognize that one is to overcome the old man and live in the new man. One's salvation is already purchased by the work of Jesus Christ, so the born again believer should work the works of God who dwells within him in fear and trembling knowing that these works will either stand for eternity, or be burnt up. Paul gives the believers at Philippi this exhortation as he recognizes that God works within them.

Yes, we should. But many do not. They do NOT persevere in the Spirit - and this is recognizable by their actions, by their disobedience to God. Their lack of faith is shown by their visible works. One's initial salvation has been purchased. We have inherited something freely. But our Father has every right to remove that inheritance from us if we disobey Him willingly.

God will not remove that which he has given regardless of man's unfaithfulness. God first loved us while we were yet sinners, not after we became cleaned up. What God first began with us that are born of God will continue until completed. Those who build on the foundation of their faith, Jesus Christ, the works of God (gold, silver, precious stones) will have those works stand for eternity; however, those who build on the foundation of their faith, their own works (wood, hay, and stubble) will have those works burned up, but they themselves will be saved.

11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
1 Corinthians 3:11-15

"How much more, do you think he deserveth worse punishments, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath esteemed the blood of the testament unclean, by which he was sanctified, and hath offered an affront to the Spirit of grace?" Heb 10:29

I would like you to note the words WHICH HE WAS SANCTIFIED... In other words, we are speaking about a Christian who was previously sanctified by God, was justified in His eyes - but has turned away from salvation. Such a person is refused entry into the Kingdom. Even if ONE person undergoes such an action by God, this destroys the concept of OSAS.

It is very important that born of God believers persevere in their walk of obedience to Holy Spirit. We are told to not grieve the Holy Spirit of whom we are sealed until the day of redemption.

30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
Ephesians 4:30

In the Scripture quoted above from 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 we see that if a born again believer builds on the foundation of his faith in Jesus Christ works not of God, those works will burn up, and the born of God believer will suffer loss as by fire but will be saved. The Scripture of Hebrews 10 shows that born of God believers will suffer physical consequences of their disobedience, but 1 Corinthians shows that said believer will not be kept out of the Kingdom of God. Let us look at Hebrews 10:

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. Hebrews 10:26-30

Notice verse 30 where it states that the Lord will judge "HIS PEOPLE". This judgment will not be a judgment to decide the eternal location of the born of God believer as that has already been settled by the crucifixion; this judgment will be the judgment of rewards for the believer. The wood, hay, and stubble will be burned up, therefore the rewards will be small. Some will only gain eternal life with no position of reward; however the least in Heaven will be greater than the greatest, John the Baptist, on this earth.

No, our past salvation doesn't mean we are automatically saved for heaven in the future. We must persevere in our Lord to be able to enter the Kingdom. We are speaking of the narrow path, the cross to be born daily. Thus the ever-present theme of the New Testament remains - PERSEVERE!

Once the Holy Spirit comes to dwell within the born of God believer, we are saved and given eternal life. We must persevere in the works of God Almighty as we walk in the Spirit (follow the Spirit's guidence). We are not to quench the Spirit of whom we are sealed until the day of redemption because of the damage that it will do to ourselves in this age, and the lack of positional rewards in the Kingdom of God after this life is over. All believers will be judged, not for their eternal life as it is already theirs as promised, but for the rewards for the life that they lived as a believer. Once we are born again believers born of God, we are HIS CHILDREN, and that which is given to Jesus Christ to keep, will be kept.

 

[francisdesales]

Once the Holy Spirit comes to dwell within the born of God believer, we are saved and given eternal life.

And if we disobey Christ, we are no longer saved and eternal life has left us. Eternal life is not a status, it is a Person... John clearly tells us that eternal life = Jesus Christ's presence within us. It is not an irrevocable bus ticket to heaven. Thus, as you correctly state without realizing the implication, 1 John 3 tells us we know we are saved while we are obeying the Commandments of the Lord. While we believe in Christ AND love others, we are saved. If we choose not to do this, if we refuse to persevere in love, we are nothing, because nothing else matters but faith working in love.

We must persevere in the works of God Almighty as we walk in the Spirit (follow the Spirit's guidence). We are not to quench the Spirit of whom we are sealed until the day of redemption because of the damage that it will do to ourselves in this age, and the lack of positional rewards in the Kingdom of God after this life is over. All believers will be judged, not for their eternal life as it is already theirs as promised, but for the rewards for the life that they lived as a believer. Once we are born again believers born of God, we are HIS CHILDREN, and that which is given to Jesus Christ to keep, will be kept.

Where does the Bible talk about "positional rewards"??? I do not find any such verses... ALL 'non-good' acts are evil or sinful. Scripture never makes any distinction between bad (deserving of lesser rewards) and sinful acts. If someone commits a bad act, it is a sin. If someone OMITS to do good, as James says, he, too, sins. Sinful acts are never considered a lesser good. You will have to give me Scriptures on that concept, as it is faulty. We either do good or we do evil. Doing evil is NEVER a means of entering heaven!

When Scripture speaks about judgment, it is either to heaven or hell. We will be either entirely fulfilled and rewarded in heaven (those who make it there) or we will be condemned to hell. This nonsense about "positional rewards" is an invention to maintain OSAS. What does Christ say about trying to sit at the head of the table? There won't be any "ranking" in the Kingdom based on any "positional rewards".

Does this sound like a person who believe in "positional rewards"?

I therefore so run, as not uncertainly; so fight I, as not beating the air: but I buffet my body, and bring it into bondage: lest by any means, after that I have preached to others, I myself should be rejected. 1 Cor 9:26-27

Other Bible translations use "disqualified". "become reprobate", "castaway". Are THESE the terms Paul uses to describe "positional rewards"? No...!

Even the great St. Paul HIMSELF says HE can be disqualified. Castaway. Reprobate! Nothing about a lesser reward. When we are disqualified from a "race", we don't get "second place"...

Either we enter heaven or we don't. That is judgment as seen by Paul, and by Jesus Christ, if you read such parables as the Goats and Sheep (Mat 25:31-45), or the large dinner (Luke 14:16-24), or the Parable of the Ten Virgins (Mat 25:1-13).

We know we are saved by our actions and belief in Christ. Past performance is no guarantee of future results, so the prospectus goes...

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Hi francisdesales,

Some will say that the unforgiveable sin is the continual denial of the Holy Spirit in one's life unto their death, in effect, denying Jesus Himself.

Seems like we (and Fnerb) are saying the same thing with different words.

Denying the Spirit's ability to forgive sin is unforgiveable, because the unrepentant sin will not be forgiven.

Regards

 

[Solo]

Where does the Bible talk about "positional rewards"??? I do not find any such verses... ALL 'non-good' acts are evil or sinful. Scripture never makes any distinction between bad (deserving of lesser rewards) and sinful acts. If someone commits a bad act, it is a sin. If someone OMITS to do good, as James says, he, too, sins. Sinful acts are never considered a lesser good. You will have to give me Scriptures on that concept, as it is faulty. We either do good or we do evil. Doing evil is NEVER a means of entering heaven!

When Scripture speaks about judgment, it is either to heaven or hell. We will be either entirely fulfilled and rewarded in heaven (those who make it there) or we will be condemned to hell. This nonsense about "positional rewards" is an invention to maintain OSAS. What does Christ say about trying to sit at the head of the table? There won't be any "ranking" in the Kingdom based on any "positional rewards".

Does this sound like a person who believe in "positional rewards"?

I therefore so run, as not uncertainly; so fight I, as not beating the air: but I buffet my body, and bring it into bondage: lest by any means, after that I have preached to others, I myself should be rejected. 1 Cor 9:26-27

Other Bible translations use "disqualified". "become reprobate", "castaway". Are THESE the terms Paul uses to describe "positional rewards"? No...!

Even the great St. Paul HIMSELF says HE can be disqualified. Castaway. Reprobate! Nothing about a lesser reward. When we are disqualified from a "race", we don't get "second place"...

Either we enter heaven or we don't. That is judgment as seen by Paul, and by Jesus Christ, if you read such parables as the Goats and Sheep (Mat 25:31-45), or the large dinner (Luke 14:16-24), or the Parable of the Ten Virgins (Mat 25:1-13).

We know we are saved by our actions and belief in Christ. Past performance is no guarantee of future results, so the prospectus goes...

Regards

Why do you keep disregarding the Scripture truth of Ephesians:

30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
Ephesians 4:30

11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: 12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
Ephesians 1:11-14

I have explained with Scripture the fact that once one is born again of God, he will be given eternal life as promised whether his works are deemed worthy by any man or not. The work of God on the cross was sufficient, and anyone who denies this truth does not know the fullness of God's grace.

You have not answered 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 fact that one might lose their rewards, but they will be saved.

11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
1 Corinthians 3:11-15


The commandment that John spoke of as "The Commandment" to obey was the commandment to "believe on the name of Jesus Christ" not on our continual works.

22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. 23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. 24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
1 John 3:22-24

What other commandment are we given to obey in order to be saved?

Your understanding of judgment is warped in that the People of God will be judged, not whether they will receive eternal life, but what rewards they will be given. Those that are not the People of God are already condemned, and they will be judged on what punishment they will be given. Jesus tells us that those who are born of God have entered the light and are not condemned; those who are not born of God have remained in darkness and are condemned already.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 3:17-18

You also failed to comment on the Scripture that says that those who leave were never born of God believers but antiChrists. The Scripture plainly explains that those who believe are believers forever.

18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
1 John 2:18-19

After you answer these Scriptures as to the meaning thereof, I will explain to you the questions that you have concerning perseverance of the saints.

One other verse that I would give pertaining to the salvation of one who was committing sin so outrageous that even the "heathens" were not participating in such actions, yet this one remained saved. Notice that the flesh will be destroyed yet the spirit saved in the day of Jesus Christ. The perseverance of the saints is for the purpose of keeping the truth pure from becoming leavened, and that the individuals would not be destroyed by satan, yet the spirit of believers saved in the day of Jesus.

1 Corinthians 5:1-6
1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife. 2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you. 3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed, 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. 6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
1 Corinthians 5:1-5

 

[francisdesales]

Why do you keep disregarding the Scripture truth of Ephesians:

30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
Ephesians 4:30

I "keep disregarding the Scriptural truth of Ephesians"? Sorry if I didn't respond to every single Scriptural post, but I have answered you in essence. I would merely be repeating myself by answering each and every verse you post.

The fact that Paul tells us to NOT grieve the Holy Spirit explicitly tells us that we CAN INDEED grieve the Holy Spirit. Paul tells us elsewhere that we can indeed do just that...

"And we helping do exhort you, that you receive not the grace of God in vain." 2 Cor 6:1

"You stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do you also." Acts 7:51

The Holy Spirit CAN be resisted - even by those who have once been 'saved'. I have already quoted you from Hebrews 10:29. What is you answer to that verse? I see you have ignored it.

I have explained with Scripture the fact that once one is born again of God, he will be given eternal life as promised whether his works are deemed worthy by any man or not. The work of God on the cross was sufficient, and anyone who denies this truth does not know the fullness of God's grace.

A person is given eternal life much the same way we are given a driver's license. It CAN be revoked if we disobey the Law set before us. As I have said before, eternal life is not a status that we possess like a bus ticket. Eternal life is Christ HIMSELF...

this is eternal life: That they may know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. John 17:3

Eternal life is abiding in Christ. We abide in Christ, John tells us in his epistle, by obeying the Commandments. If we don't obey the commandments, we do NOT have eternal life within us.

He that hath the Son, hath life. He that hath not the Son, hath not life. 1 John 5:12

Pretty clear. Eternal life is not a once-given, always secured 'status'. It is Christ's abiding life within us, as long as we live in love, which is an expression of our faith. Having faith, in the Bible, refers to faith in God and believing in His promises and obeying Him. Faith is a way of life. Faith is NOT merely making some force of will and claiming you are saved now and forever more...

You have not answered 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 fact that one might lose their rewards, but they will be saved.

LOL!!!

You are going to use 1 Cor 3:12-17 to explain faith alone?

First, you have failed to give me any verses that show that "bad works" are distinct from sin... In every passage of Scripture that specify a judgment for deeds, the primary purpose of the judgment is to determine the eternal destiny of the individual. NO NT verse concerning final judgment even mentions faith ALONE as the criteria for entering heaven. I have given you passage that you choose not to answer, such as Mat 25:41-46. Clearly, you must realize that such passages mention nothing about "positional rewards", but ONLY eternal heaven or hell.

As to 1 Cor 3:12-17, you attempt to confine this passage (and Rom 14:10-12, no doubt) to a judgment where Christians are judged to determine personal reward in heaven.

In order to make that ASSUMPTION, you MUST assume that this passage which speaks of an individuals "bad works" are NOT referring to SIN! Therefore, you must assume a distinction between "sin" and "bad works", since the Christian who has "already" been justified and forgiven of sin by "faith alone" cannot be judged for sin without creating a SEVERE contradiction in "faith alone" theology!

The fatal flaw in your theology is that Scripture NEVER makes the distintion between 'bad deeds' and sins. EACH time bad deeds are mentioned, they are in the context of sin. Since Protestant theology invents the need for a Christian to not be judged for his sins, the only possible means to avoid the eventuality of his judgment for sin is to invent a category of "bad deeds" as something other than sin.

When cornered, Protestant theologians will keep the distinction between "bad deeds" and sin ambiguous, knowing full well there is no such biblical warrant.

By looking at the various Protestant translations and their attempts to change the meaning of the passage (as if a person had "barely" escaped as if from a burning building with singed clothing!) is STILL a contradiction of "faith alone" theology. There is NO ROOM in "faith alone" theology for salvation by degrees...

The contradiction of your interpretation of 1 Cor 3:12-17 becomes more clear when we read verse 17...

"But if any man violate the temple of God, him shall God destroy. For the temple of God is holy, which you are. "

The individual whom Paul warns throughout the first 3 chapters of 1 Corinthians is in threat of being DESTROYED! Just as Paul says in 1 Cor 9, he realizes that he, too, could be DISQUALIFIED. In 1 Cor 3:17, the Christian is not merely saved by fire, HE IS DESTROYED!!! This shows that God does not judge the sins of the individual in 3:15 in the same manner as for the individual in 3:17, where he still saves the former, but not the latter. Remember, there is NO room for determining one's salvation by the degree of good or bad works in Protestant theology.

"Protestant literature is virtually silent regarding the connection between the salvation offered in 1 Cor 3:15 and the condemnation stipulated in 1 Cor 3:17" (Not by Faith Alone, Sungenis, p. 510)

Thus, I AGAIN ask you, show me the verses that make the distinction between "bad deeds" and sin.

The commandment that John spoke of as "The Commandment" to obey was the commandment to "believe on the name of Jesus Christ" not on our continual works.

22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. 23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. 24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
1 John 3:22-24

We wouldn't be going around the bushes and revisiting this again if you bothered to read my posts and if you read the Scriptures more carefully. Read it again... Especially

...That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another...

What other commandment are we given to obey in order to be saved?

Is that a trick question? It depends on what you mean by "to be saved". If I was to understand YOUR idea of "being saved", then I have to do nothing. However, the ENTIRE Biblical idea of "being saved" is something that takes place in the past, present, and future. Thus, I must obey the Word of God to enter the Kingdom of Heaven...

"Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven" Mat 7:21

Your understanding of judgment is warped in that the People of God will be judged, not whether they will receive eternal life, but what rewards they will be given. Those that are not the People of God are already condemned, and they will be judged on what punishment they will be given. Jesus tells us that those who are born of God have entered the light and are not condemned; those who are not born of God have remained in darkness and are condemned already.

My understanding is warped? Then explain from Scripture the difference between "bad works" and sin.

You also failed to comment on the Scripture that says that those who leave were never born of God believers but antiChrists. The Scripture plainly explains that those who believe are believers forever.

You are twisting that verse out of context. The community cannot judge what is in the heart of another - God Himself has said that.

You plainly have not read the entire New Testament very well, because there are numerous occasions that describe BELIEVERS who fall from salvation...

I can post verses from EVERY book of the NT (except Philemon) that tells us that salvation can be lost... Why on earth do you think Christians are told to persevere over and over? IF a believer CANNOT fall, what would be the point of such an exhortation? Can you explain that?

After you answer these Scriptures as to the meaning thereof, I will explain to you the questions that you have concerning perseverance of the saints.

I have. Your turn.

One other verse that I would give pertaining to the salvation of one who was committing sin so outrageous that even the "heathens" were not participating in such actions, yet this one remained saved. Notice that the flesh will be destroyed yet the spirit saved in the day of Jesus Christ. The perseverance of the saints is for the purpose of keeping the truth pure from becoming leavened, and that the individuals would not be destroyed by satan, yet the spirit of believers saved in the day of Jesus.

Where does it say he "remained saved"? The Scripture says "so that he MAY be saved, not that he WILL be saved...

Now, kindly answer my questions. I have answered yours, now please answer mine.

Explain Mat 7:21. Explain 1 John 3:23 (all of it). Explain 1 Cor 3:17. Explain the difference, from Scriptures, between "bad works" and sin... Explain the need to persevere if everything is already done. Explain why "faith alone" is never mentioned, except to DENY it as the salvation formula...

Regards

 

[unred typo]

You have not answered 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 fact that one might lose their rewards, but they will be saved.
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
1 Corinthians 3:11-15

A careful reading of the entire passage will reveal that Paul is saying that those teachers building doctrines that are faulty on the foundation of the teachings of Christ may lose their reward. These are teachers who follow Christ but teach things that are not given by the Lord for his flock. All false doctrines will not cause growth in the believer and not result in fruit of the Spirit and these will be burned up and not bring a reward. False humility, feigned love, and good deeds done for selfish motives will also be burned with false doctrines.

The believer himself will be judged by his works, just as all men will be judged. Sin is not the wood, hay and stubble that will be burned up. Sin must be repented of and confessed.

1 Corinthians 5:1-6
1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife. 2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you. 3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed, 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. 6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?

As francisdesales wrote earlier, the man here is a believer that is being delivered to Satan, in the hopes that he will repent and then be saved. Suffering is good for the soul. Pain is a powerful persuader. The prodigal found that hunger brought him to his senses and back to the Father. He never became a pig in the pen but if he had died of starvation there, he still would have died and never been received back to live with his father.

:

Ooops, sorry, Joe. I see you have graciously repeated your answers for Solo and much more thoroughly than I have here. Good reply. :smt023

 

[Solo]

It will never cease to amaze me that individuals who believe that God is unable to save an individual from all of their sins. They will proclaim that one is saved by grace through faith, not of works lest any man should boast; but they cannot accept keeping this salvation apart from their works; in spite of the Scriptures that teach a one time born again experience. Simply amazing.

 

[unred typo]

Solo, please answer the posts (at least the one Joe wrote) and don’t try to make condescending comments that do not deal with the scriptural evidence against your view.
:smt018

 

[Solo]

Solo, please answer the posts (at least the one Joe wrote) and don’t try to make condescending comments that do not deal with the scriptural evidence against your view.
:smt018

I gave you all the Scripture necessary, and none of what I posted was condescending, it was all fact.

Here is what the Scriptures say about one who is born of God, born again, saved.

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. Ephesians 2:8-9

Here is what those who believe in being able to lose one's salvation translate this Scripture:

1 For by grace are ye saved through faith while doing what the Israelites were told to do in the law of Moses, not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 2 Not of works, which is all other things except performing up to God's standards, lest any man should boast; 3 keeping in mind that this salvation, even though it is a free gift, must be kept by continueing keeping the law of Moses or any law that we deem necessary, otherwise God will take the free gift back. Bookofyoucanloseyoursalvation 1:1-3

A real stupid theology if I don't say so myself...Solo thought as he attempted a condescending comment to Unred and Joe.

 

[unred typo]

I gave you all the Scripture necessary, and none of what I posted was condescending, it was all fact.

Your scriptural evidence was refuted as proof of your view. It is up to you to either show how our view is faulty, or come up with better verses to substantiate what you believe. Otherwise we will conclude that you concede that your doctrines regarding this are in error.

 

[francisdesales]

It will never cease to amaze me that individuals who believe that God is unable to save an individual from all of their sins. They will proclaim that one is saved by grace through faith, not of works lest any man should boast; but they cannot accept keeping this salvation apart from their works; in spite of the Scriptures that teach a one time born again experience. Simply amazing.

Solo,

You are making an error by saying that God is "UNABLE" to save an individual. Nowhere have I made that claim, nor have I even implied it! God desires ALL men to be saved. ALL men. God died for ALL men. Yet, some will not be saved - we most certainly agree. Does this mean God is UNABLE to ensure that ALL men be saved?

God desirse that men obey His commandments. Do they?

One must distinguish between what God allows and what God ensures happens.

...they cannot accept keeping this salvation apart from their works; in spite of the Scriptures that teach a one time born again experience. Simply amazing.

What is more amazing besides the drama is that you cannot answer my questions from Scriptures. If you were open to truth, rather than merely telling us we are wrong, you might begin to see the cracks in your theology that have been pointed out to you. I do not deny the one-time born again experience! Perhaps you need to read what I write. I said that the one-time born again experience does NOT necessarily mean one will enter heaven. What does Matthew 7:21 tell you? I have posted it a number of times, but only silence from you. I guess you have no answer, preferring merely to tell us how amazing we are to you...


Regards