Adullam
Member
Christian Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
-
Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
-
Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
-
-
Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
-
-
How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
-
Jethro Bodine
Member
This is only true if 'still sins' means you are still in a lifestyle of practicing sin and are characterized by the deeds of the fallen nature and have not been born again yet. But everyone who believes and has been joined to the body of Christ is indeed married to Christ despite the growing pains of learning to walk in the Spirit they have been given.
Adullam
Member
This is true. We must, however, not neglect to grow into the fulness of Christ or begin to doubt the power that causes us to be separate from the world, the carnal mind, and the lies of the devil. Many have forsaken the way of sanctification and have turned aside to fables and an easy salvation that makes sinning and doing God's will one and the same thing.
F
Fedusenko
Guest
Adultery is grounds for divorce. If an earthly marriage is a shadow of the spiritual marriage then committing sin is grounds for rejection.
What is the lifestyle of sin? You are either sinning or you are not.
Why are we talking as if sin is a disease and not a choice? Just as Yeshua was tempted we are tempted. The difference is that I sinned. I stepped away from God. I can be saved, but I can also step away again. I am responsible for my actions, Jesus is responsible to vouching for me.
F
Fedusenko
Guest
I think I might be trying to spit out what Adullem sings. My words are not so eloquent.
Edit: That is meant to be a compliment. It may also be proof.
Edit: That is meant to be a compliment. It may also be proof.
Jethro Bodine
Member
The problem with your belief that you lose Christ in divorce every time you sin is, you can not be remarried to Christ again if you are 'divorced' from him through sin.
You need to make some room in your doctrine for the difference between sinning because of fear, or weakness, etc. and sinning because you don't want Christ and God's forgiveness anymore. The former does not end your relationship with Christ. The latter does, for God says those who come to Christ then reject him can not come back to him. So, with this fact in mind, do you lose Christ every time you sin? Or does why you are sinning determine if you lose Christ when you sin?
Jethro Bodine
Member
But to make this mean genuine believers can't and won't sin is terribly wrong.
F
Fedusenko
Guest
What does it mean to repent then? Do you turn your back on the sin you are repenting for the same way you turned your back on the sin in the first place?
Jethro Bodine
Member
Turning away from sin as an unbeliever and turning away from sin as a believer represent two different relationships with God. You're not establishing a new relationship with God when you confess your sins after you have been born again.
Jethro Bodine
Member
"“Those who have had a bath need only to wash their feet..." (John 13:10 NIV1984)
smaller
Member
Many believers are somewhat blind when it comes to 'sin' and more importantly, the cause of SIN.
Sin originates with the tempter, the devil. Sin begins with the insertions of sin thoughts. Those thoughts are not yours as a believer, they are of an entity that is not you, the tempter.
You can 'not' stop the tempter from doing this activity. It is not possible. The tempter himself (and his own) is automatically prompted by THE LAW to resist Gods Laws IN MAN by tempting them within to BREAK the LAW.
So, a man thinking that they can stand under the Law justified will always and continually find the tempter sinning in their minds regardless of their claims of not sinning. Who then is sinning in this equation? It is not YOU as a believer, but your ENEMY, the tempter, the DEVIL.
No man can stand justified under the LAW because of that working in them that is not them. It is not possible. The tempter in the mind will never be justified or legal or obedient.
Any 'believer' who can not come to grips with this fact remains a slave to that which they do not even perceive they have or carry in their minds and hearts.
There is no 'division' within their hearts between them and what they carry. Most remain then under the cloudiness of confusions. I do not say this to slur any believer, but to point them, even PINpoint them to the facts of scripture that they may see. They refuse to deal with this matter as a factual presence because they can not. The tempter has hidden himself in their minds. And the reason believers can not admit this fact and don't is because of that presence that is not them.
You see the liar, the tempter will never allow his slaves to know where he is.
If you understand this fact, you will be led by God in Christ to DIVIDE yourself from that working and you will gain the advantage.
You then as a believer are entirely justified but the workings of the tempter in you will never be justified.
This is factually how all of us currently stand according to the scriptures. It is a difficult matter to come to grips with. Many simply brush it off. Even more claim NOT ME!
This is exactly 'how' the tempter arrives into the hearts of mankind. It transpired in the Garden with Adam and we all carried and do carry the workings of the tempter in us from that point forward.
Mark 4:15
And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.
Anyone who says or even thinks that this does not happen to them once they are born again remain deceived and if they don't or can't admit this fact they are actually speaking the tempters own coverup in their minds and hearts. Just as Satan resisted Jesus from the lips of Peter, so do deniers resist this fact of Jesus from their lips and they do so speaking the tempters own words. This is how a hypocrite is formed in such carriers. A walking talking deceived liar. Claiming his righteousness even while the tempter is present within their mind and heart.
Many will claim that their sin is not of the devil. 1 John 3:8 clearly links sin to the devil as do many of Jesus' Own Words as shown above. They say it makes man not responsible for his sin. The big however is that the tempter does not stop tempting and does so in response even moreso in people who handle Gods Words. And you will NEVER make the tempter 'responsible' to do anything but SIN via temptation thoughts.
The fact is real, and the fact is that no man walks alone. They all go hand in hand with the tempter.
Those who are led to see will be also led to divide them self from that working.
Luke 14:26
If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
This is partly how I know the difference between a brother in Truth and a person claiming to be a believer who remains blinded. Those who come to Jesus our Lord this way can expect and even welcome the spiritual process of 'beheading!' Replacing 'our thoughts' with HIS THOUGHTS of TRUTH in His Own Words.
Where Jesus told His diciples they must hate their own lives that is WHY, that working in us is exactly what we are to hate, and viciously so. But until we have the redemption of our bodies, this is a fact that we are stuck with.
This fact of Jesus has given me many tears, but in the same token it has also produced a great personal need of our Lord continually in my own heart. And therein I am comforted by His Spirit, continually. And He equips me both to share and to fight our real enemies, Satan and his messengers.
May you hear in truth, and rise up in rebellion to that working. And may the other working be damned. The one who will not hear. May the STONE of Gods Words in Christ STONE that devil in your gates. Your ear gate, your eye gate, and in your heart.
We die daily for good cause. I know whenever I set foot in a discussion forum or even in life that I am not only dealing with believers or with mankind. There is always another working to contend with and to be wary of.
I am an enemy of Gods enemies. They know it. I know it. I confront these enemies wherever I go and God shows them to me, and will even bring them FORTH. To cast out also means TO REVEAL.
I know I will hear the crying and whining of those enemies in everyone who reads this post. Some will even be so bold as to come forth and LIE right out in the open.
May no child of God be such slaves.
enjoy!
smaller
Sin originates with the tempter, the devil. Sin begins with the insertions of sin thoughts. Those thoughts are not yours as a believer, they are of an entity that is not you, the tempter.
You can 'not' stop the tempter from doing this activity. It is not possible. The tempter himself (and his own) is automatically prompted by THE LAW to resist Gods Laws IN MAN by tempting them within to BREAK the LAW.
So, a man thinking that they can stand under the Law justified will always and continually find the tempter sinning in their minds regardless of their claims of not sinning. Who then is sinning in this equation? It is not YOU as a believer, but your ENEMY, the tempter, the DEVIL.
No man can stand justified under the LAW because of that working in them that is not them. It is not possible. The tempter in the mind will never be justified or legal or obedient.
Any 'believer' who can not come to grips with this fact remains a slave to that which they do not even perceive they have or carry in their minds and hearts.
There is no 'division' within their hearts between them and what they carry. Most remain then under the cloudiness of confusions. I do not say this to slur any believer, but to point them, even PINpoint them to the facts of scripture that they may see. They refuse to deal with this matter as a factual presence because they can not. The tempter has hidden himself in their minds. And the reason believers can not admit this fact and don't is because of that presence that is not them.
You see the liar, the tempter will never allow his slaves to know where he is.
If you understand this fact, you will be led by God in Christ to DIVIDE yourself from that working and you will gain the advantage.
You then as a believer are entirely justified but the workings of the tempter in you will never be justified.
This is factually how all of us currently stand according to the scriptures. It is a difficult matter to come to grips with. Many simply brush it off. Even more claim NOT ME!
This is exactly 'how' the tempter arrives into the hearts of mankind. It transpired in the Garden with Adam and we all carried and do carry the workings of the tempter in us from that point forward.
Mark 4:15
And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.
Anyone who says or even thinks that this does not happen to them once they are born again remain deceived and if they don't or can't admit this fact they are actually speaking the tempters own coverup in their minds and hearts. Just as Satan resisted Jesus from the lips of Peter, so do deniers resist this fact of Jesus from their lips and they do so speaking the tempters own words. This is how a hypocrite is formed in such carriers. A walking talking deceived liar. Claiming his righteousness even while the tempter is present within their mind and heart.
Many will claim that their sin is not of the devil. 1 John 3:8 clearly links sin to the devil as do many of Jesus' Own Words as shown above. They say it makes man not responsible for his sin. The big however is that the tempter does not stop tempting and does so in response even moreso in people who handle Gods Words. And you will NEVER make the tempter 'responsible' to do anything but SIN via temptation thoughts.
The fact is real, and the fact is that no man walks alone. They all go hand in hand with the tempter.
Those who are led to see will be also led to divide them self from that working.
Luke 14:26
If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
This is partly how I know the difference between a brother in Truth and a person claiming to be a believer who remains blinded. Those who come to Jesus our Lord this way can expect and even welcome the spiritual process of 'beheading!' Replacing 'our thoughts' with HIS THOUGHTS of TRUTH in His Own Words.
Where Jesus told His diciples they must hate their own lives that is WHY, that working in us is exactly what we are to hate, and viciously so. But until we have the redemption of our bodies, this is a fact that we are stuck with.
This fact of Jesus has given me many tears, but in the same token it has also produced a great personal need of our Lord continually in my own heart. And therein I am comforted by His Spirit, continually. And He equips me both to share and to fight our real enemies, Satan and his messengers.
May you hear in truth, and rise up in rebellion to that working. And may the other working be damned. The one who will not hear. May the STONE of Gods Words in Christ STONE that devil in your gates. Your ear gate, your eye gate, and in your heart.
We die daily for good cause. I know whenever I set foot in a discussion forum or even in life that I am not only dealing with believers or with mankind. There is always another working to contend with and to be wary of.
I am an enemy of Gods enemies. They know it. I know it. I confront these enemies wherever I go and God shows them to me, and will even bring them FORTH. To cast out also means TO REVEAL.
I know I will hear the crying and whining of those enemies in everyone who reads this post. Some will even be so bold as to come forth and LIE right out in the open.
May no child of God be such slaves.
enjoy!
smaller
Jethro Bodine
Member
You'll have to drive this home in a shorter, more concise, practical form to make it understood. It has nothing to do with the enemy robbing people of being able to nail down the purpose of what you say. It's just that you really haven't come right out and shown any practical application to what you endorse in these forums.
Among other things it seems you're saying the fourth kind of soil that Jesus talks about doesn't exist. It's a complete impossibility because the enemy will always succeed in robbing the Word from everyone's hearts, even believers. I don't believe that for a minute.
So I see this frustrating polarization again. I see one extreme represented in this thread where there is zero sin, and the other extreme where there is sin a plenty. Just another example, IMO, of how true doctrine resides somewhere in between these misguided and over zealous extremes of doctrine people have. I was that way, too, once, but I had to bend to honest scrutiny from others who challenged my hard held doctrines. And in the end, almost without exception, the truth about these things we debate is somewhere in the middle.
So drive this bus home and show us what this means to me and my brothers and sisters when we wake up tomorrow morning and start a new day. Short, concise posts are best.
smaller
Member
What "I" endorse? Sorry, I take it to be a scriptural fact well beyond any contention that the 'tempter' tempts in mind and that those thoughts are SIN.
If you want to say that is not the case, knock yerself out. There is no contention of the matter 'as it is Written.' It's just a fact.
If you want to claim 'your soil' produced sinlessness, again, knock yerself out. I will not be sniffing at the kind of ground without holding my nose. Some soil produces the FACT i.e. the TRUTH that TRUTH brings.
And I see Jesus made quite a CLEAN and CLEAR cut between us and the workings of the tempter. When one stands on His facts it does disrupt many false doctrines, and that does tend to 'disturb' the mind.
You can cut it how you want. It won't change the scriptural facts of temptation being of the devil, the tempter, nor will any amount of dodging evade the fact of that presence. It's part of the humble pie that only God in Christ can feed a person in Truth.
Don't be a slave of the devil. And don't think yourself as only you.
enjoy!
s
Jethro Bodine
Member
Is there something wrong with endorsing scriptural facts? I'm just asking to make more clearer what you endorse as scriptural fact so we can examine it for ourselves.
We won't know what your contentions and facts are until you make them clearer and more practical to daily Christian living.
Have you not been reading my posts? I'm defending the fact that genuine born-again believers struggle with sin as they grow up into the head, Jesus Christ. I'm definitely not in the camp that thinks Christians are sinless. But neither am I in the camp that thinks the deceiver steals every single Word of God from us and prevents it from taking root in the soil. The parable of the Sower itself shows us that. It clearly demonstrates the potential for a progression of growth of the Word of God in people's hearts, not a losing battle with the enemy where he always steals the Word and gets away with it.
What does that mean??????? I think I know what it would mean to me if I made such a statement, but you have to make it clearer what it means to you and your doctrine.
We'll see what doctrine people have is false or not according to your teaching once it becomes clearer what the practical application of your doctrine is. I'm playing nice here. I'm just asking you to make what you say clearer.
I don't, and I can't for life of me think of a fellow believer who does. How are we to apply this to our lives as Christians? How will it change us? Is it supposed to change us? What is the goal of this teaching?
smaller
Member
I thought it was pretty clear there Jethro. Maybe you can say what it is you don't think you're getting or understanding?
My post was very clear. We have thoughts of SIN in us that are not from ourselves but are of the tempter.
Does that make it any easier for you? Why flail about it? It's just a fact.
s
Drew
Member
I believe that Paul is not talking about the struggles of the believer in Romans 7 - he is instead analyzing the plight of the unbelieving Jew, who is trying to follow the Law of Moses.
Would the Christian say this about his experience as a Christian:
Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death
Of course not. Paul is looking back here to the time when the advent of the Law - the Torah - brought judgement and death. This is true of the Jew under Torah, not the Christian. Note the specific allusion to the delivery of the Torah at Sinai – “when the commandment cameâ€. Clearly, Paul is describing the history of Israel, using himself (a Jew) as a representative.
Would the Christian say this about his experience as a Christian:
But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through what was good, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful
Sin produces death in the Christian? Sin becomes utterly sinful in the Christian? Of course not.
Please do not misunderstand Romans 7. It is not a transcript of Christian experience, for the alleged "elect" or otherwise. It is what Paul knows to be the case about the plight of the Jew under Torah, as seen from Paul's present state - that of a redeemed saint.
Adullam
Member
What is wrong is to teach death and defeat as the result of being in Christ.
Salvation is a process of learning to walk ONLY in the Spirit. This takes the form of a death to the things of thew world. It takes a long time for most to get tired of what the world has to offer. So the process gets drawn out in many...sometimes indefinitely.
But if we surrender to God and believe on Jesus Christ we abide in Him and walk like Him...until we are again enticed away from His presence.
A mature spiritual disciple does not leave His Master. He is made complete in His walk and character. He has truly learned to love God with ALL His heart. mind and actions.
F
Fedusenko
Guest
@ smaller
Jethro is not stating that you are wrong. What he is saying is that it doesn't make sense what you are saying. He doesn't understand you. He is asking you to say it differently and with less words. I ask this same thing all the time so that I clearly understand the other person.
He does claim to think some where between the two extremes that are apart of this thread, but that does not have to mean you. All he wants is for you to state your case in a way that he can understand it so that he can put your words to thought. He also asked for a practical example. I don't think that being short with him is very productive for you, him or anyone else that had trouble following what you said. I had trouble following it, too.
There are times where I state something that seems clear as day, but others are like... uhhhh, huh?
Jethro is not stating that you are wrong. What he is saying is that it doesn't make sense what you are saying. He doesn't understand you. He is asking you to say it differently and with less words. I ask this same thing all the time so that I clearly understand the other person.
He does claim to think some where between the two extremes that are apart of this thread, but that does not have to mean you. All he wants is for you to state your case in a way that he can understand it so that he can put your words to thought. He also asked for a practical example. I don't think that being short with him is very productive for you, him or anyone else that had trouble following what you said. I had trouble following it, too.
There are times where I state something that seems clear as day, but others are like... uhhhh, huh?
Adullam
Member
We have died in Christ FIRST in order to be made alive in Christ. So the power of the flesh is dealt with at the cross. Adam is NO LONGER the father of the dead in Christ. Jesus Christ has made His Father become our Father. One must actually experience this transformation of a new birth...not just accept some doctrinal stance that has no effect on the flesh.
So a conclusion cannot be come to from one's own mind. The futility of the mind is on the wrong side of the cross. After the cross we enjoin the mind of Christ. In Him we have NEW life...not the Adamic kind...but the Christ kind.
Can a man fly? In his own strength he cannot. Yet men fly everywhere these days. How? By abiding in a plane!!!
Can men live in space? OF course not...there is no air there. Yet there is the MIR space station! How? By abiding in a space craft.
Can men stop sinning? Of course not...we have Adam for a father. Yet we have saints. How? By abiding in Christ and HIS sinlessness.
So a conclusion cannot be come to from one's own mind. The futility of the mind is on the wrong side of the cross. After the cross we enjoin the mind of Christ. In Him we have NEW life...not the Adamic kind...but the Christ kind.
Can a man fly? In his own strength he cannot. Yet men fly everywhere these days. How? By abiding in a plane!!!
Can men live in space? OF course not...there is no air there. Yet there is the MIR space station! How? By abiding in a space craft.
Can men stop sinning? Of course not...we have Adam for a father. Yet we have saints. How? By abiding in Christ and HIS sinlessness.
smaller
Member
There are 'reasons' why others can not hear this matter. It is from the fact of the presence of the tempter with us.
I've said many times as a FACT that 'all mankind' carry a functioning entity in their MINDS that is not THEM.
I can't write it any clearer. No person can stop that intrusion. It's not possible. We sin because of the tempters insertion of SIN THOUGHTS which are factually INTERNAL SINS in the form of THOUGHT by that entity that is not us. A believer who overlooks this fact does so by the blinding of that entity and they can NOT see it because it is 'inside' their hearts and they 'discount' the matter as trivial.
It is not trivial. No man will make 'the tempter' with them 'legal,' 'obedient' or 'sinless.' It is not possible. To understand this matter is to come to grips with the causes of our personal hitching to WEAKNESS and the great NEED for God in Christ and HIS MERCY.
The working itself then forces us to come before God knowing our need. The Law points to this same matter, revealing the presence of lawlessness 'within' us. That lawlessness is OF THE TEMPTER and not of the PERSON. The person is the slave in this equation. The Spirit DIVIDES us from that working but it does NOT release us from that working. The release is a promise to come, when we have a NEW BODY that is not subject to such intrusions.
When 'believers' don't 'get it' it is not the believer that I show impatience with, but the resistor openly vaunting his expressions in them. I draw a firm line between the two workings. Believers can bow to the fact and be divided or they are resisting the fact by that presence. In effect, presently covered. I only point to the fact. It remains for The Holy Spirit to vivify the fact in them. God Himself elects which vessel to raise in the lump. Often times when I share this a dire cry goes about. I know where it factually comes from and it is NOT of the person, but the FEAR of that entity in LOSING their mental slave.
As the time of the end draws closer, they know their time becomes shorter and they FIGHT. It's just a fact.
s