"Go and sin no more"

[Drew]

That tickles the feet of Gnosticism which same believed that the flesh is evil. That is not the case. The flesh is condemned because of the presence of sin.

We won't be cutting flesh and finding sin. It's a force, a slaving force. A power. It starts in mind from temptation, pokes it's weed head up through the ground of the flesh so to speak in word sin, and grows to SIN action, thereby making a slave. Any one of the workings from mind through action remains a sin of force or power.

We do not however war or wrestle with flesh, but the power of darkness that is in it. The seed of darkness is planted in the ground, that is, our flesh. And it is sown by our enemy.

s

You and I disagree about a lot of things, including some things related to the "sin" question.

But I entirely agree with this characterization of the nature of sin. Paul describes sin as an invading power or force, and I entirely agree with the important "line" you draw between "sin as a force", on the one hand, and the human person, on the other. In other words, I agree with this distinction you draw:

We do not however war or wrestle with flesh, but the power of darkness that is in it.

 

[smaller]

You and I disagree about a lot of things, including some things related to the "sin" question.

But I entirely agree with this characterization of the nature of sin. Paul describes sin as an invading power or force, and I entirely agree with the important "line" you draw between "sin as a force", on the one hand, and the human person, on the other. In other words, I agree with this distinction you draw:

It is in my mind a good thing to debate these matters. The distinction is not one that I contrived or made. Paul was clear that the sin that indwelt his flesh was exactly as he stated. NO LONGER I. A 'new man' recognizes that power is what we struggle against. Yet we can NOT say we don't have sin and be in Truth. Therein starts the whirlwind in the minds of the observers, trying to free themselves, but never being able.

If we see it is not us, we also see then our Perfection in Him, while the other working IS and REMAINS utterly condemned. This is how all believers stand.

When 'we' as believers recognize our 'sin' as an invading force that is not us, it is MUCH easier to divide ourselves from it. In the DIVISION we are Perfect IN HIM, and that working force of sin is not now nor was it ever nor will it ever be BLESSED or SANCTIONED. IF the power of sin is placed under the LAW, guess what it will do? Yes, it will resist and SIN. That is why we are NOT to place the power of SIN under the LAW and then think we STAND. It is futile and fruitless to do so.

God remains against that working IN ALL. It's a scriptural fact.

s

 

[Eventide]

Christ died for OUR sins according to the scriptures..

I too think that it's a good thing to discuss these matters..

Couple questions arise in my mind..

I agree that sin is of the devil.. although I would disagree that the devil forces US to sin and that we can't help it so to speak.. we're certainly tempted to sin, although again.. no man is forced to sin..

If that was the case then why would man be condemned and not the devil only ? Why do we die if it's just the devil doing all the sinning.. ?

Christ didn't die for the devil's sin, He died for OUR sin..

It's like I mentioned a few times before.. It's one thing to have a fowl land on your head.. it's another matter entirely to allow it to build a nest there.

 

[smaller]

Re: Christ died for OUR sins according to the scriptures..

I too think that it's a good thing to discuss these matters..

Couple questions arise in my mind..

I agree that sin is of the devil.. although I would disagree that the devil forces US to sin and that we can't help it so to speak..

Let's get a simple matter straight. A 'sin thought' is a SIN. Jesus said it is such in Matt. 5 citing therein the Law of Adultery.

Sin thoughts ARE factually of the tempter. That is 'how' sin starts, via TEMPTATION. Did the DEVIL then force you to sin? No, the tempter himself SINNED in YOUR MIND. There is nothing 'you' can do about it NOR can you make the DEVIL more responsible so as not to TEMPT your mind with SIN thoughts. That just ain't gonna happen. I'm not saying this is a perpetual impenetration, but temptation in MIND is a fact, it is of the TEMPTER and it IS a SIN.

Jesus also told us all VERY clearly that where the Word is sown, Satan enters the heart to STEAL Word. That also IS A SIN. Why in the world do you think so many believers are confused, argue and debate incessantly? It is because we are ALL factual victims of the SIN of THEFT via Satan. That SIN happens in everyone because none of us see everything clearly. We only see IN PART.

The devil has quite a field day amongst believers, particularly in those who don't have a clue about that working. Such 'sleep' to the obvious.

we're certainly tempted to sin, although again.. no man is forced to sin..

You have no clue about the sin in your own mind? Sorry, our God given conscience says otherwise. We know that a 'thought' of theft or of murder is VILE. Just as bad as the act, only in THOUGHT FORM SIN.

Believers are waaaaay too falsely LED to coverup the Tempters SINS in their minds, not even realizing it is not from THEM.

Christ didn't die for the devil's sin, He died for OUR sin..

That's right. Simultaneously to OUR not having sins counted against us, that same MEASURE will assuredly NOT apply to the workings or presence of the tempter within our minds or our FLESH. It is a SHARP TWO EDGED SWORD.

It's like I mentioned a few times before.. It's one thing to have a fowl land on your head.. it's another matter entirely to allow it to build a nest there.

You are welcome to FORGIVE the TEMPTER in your own mind and claim that sin thoughts are not sin and to basically GRACE the TEMPTER with Gods BLESSINGS.

I don't and won't. Not one little bit.

s

 

[Eventide]

Re: Christ died for OUR sins according to the scriptures..

Let's get a simple matter straight. A 'sin thought' is a SIN. Jesus said it is such in Matt. 5 citing therein the Law of Adultery.

Sin thoughts ARE factually of the tempter. That is 'how' sin starts, via TEMPTATION. Did the DEVIL then force you to sin? No, the tempter himself SINNED in YOUR MIND. There is nothing 'you' can do about it NOR can you make the DEVIL more responsible so as not to TEMPT your mind with SIN thoughts. That just ain't gonna happen. I'm not saying this is a perpetual impenetration, but temptation in MIND is a fact, it is of the TEMPTER and it IS a SIN.

I can understand that and I agree.. although I'm talking about sin carried out in the flesh.. ie, the real world right here where we live.. things like murder, adultery, etc etc..

Jesus also told us all VERY clearly that where the Word is sown, Satan enters the heart to STEAL Word. That also IS A SIN. Why in the world do you think so many believers are confused, argue and debate incessantly? It is because we are ALL factual victims of the SIN of THEFT via Satan. That SIN happens in everyone because none of us see everything clearly. We only see IN PART.

Again.. I can understand that.. although again I'm speaking of sin being carried out.. ie.. let's say the devil tempts me to stael something.. and I DO IT.. are you going to tell me that it has nothing to do with me and is only the devil doing it..? To me that's nonsense.. and you admit that the devil does not force a person to sin.

The devil has quite a field day amongst believers, particularly in those who don't have a clue about that working. Such 'sleep' to the obvious.

I think it's pretty obvious too.. although I've been around the block a few times.. it may not be so obvious to a babe in Christ.

You have no clue about the sin in your own mind?

Didn't say anything remotely close to that.. sometimes I think you just like saying that about other people.. and I can't imagine why.

Sorry, our God given conscience says otherwise. We know that a 'thought' of theft or of murder is VILE. Just as bad as the act, only in THOUGHT FORM SIN.

What about the person who actually commits the murder.. who sinned there ? Is it the devil or the person ?

You are welcome to FORGIVE the TEMPTER in your own mind and claim that sin thoughts are not sin and to basically GRACE the TEMPTER with Gods BLESSINGS.

I don't and won't. Not one little bit.

Once again.. I said nothing remotely close to 'forgiving the tempter in my mind'.. why do you find it necessary to put words in other peoples mouth..?

 

[smaller]

Re: Christ died for OUR sins according to the scriptures..

I can understand that and I agree.. although I'm talking about sin carried out in the flesh.. ie, the real world right here where we live.. things like murder, adultery, etc etc..

Sin is a progression of thought SIN to word SIN to deed SIN. But it is ALL sin and it is so of the TEMPTER. When it culminates on the outside, THERE is a SLAVE of SATAN.

Again.. I can understand that.. although again I'm speaking of sin being carried out.. ie.. let's say the devil tempts me to stael something.. and I DO IT.

The point remains that the thought is A SIN and is so of the TEMPTER. Look at how much you are struggling to say that the THOUGHT is not a SIN. It is SURELY a SIN.

. are you going to tell me that it has nothing to do with me and is only the devil doing it..? To me that's nonsense..

No, no tempters sins in YOUR mind. lol

and you admit that the devil does not force a person to sin.

When you cease from temptation thoughts of the tempter, you just let me know when you have made the tempter obedient and responsible.

Good luck with that.

s

 

[Eventide]

Re: Christ died for OUR sins according to the scriptures..

Sin is a progression of thought SIN to word SIN to deed SIN. But it is ALL sin and it is so of the TEMPTER. When it culminates on the outside, THERE is a SLAVE of SATAN.

So what are you saying.. that Christ died for Satan's sin and we don't sin ?

The point remains that the thought is A SIN and is so of the TEMPTER. Look at how much you are struggling to say that the THOUGHT is not a SIN. It is SURELY a SIN.

Obviously you can't follow a simple thought here.. I didn't say (not even one time) that thoughts are not sin.. what I'm talking about is when it is carried out in the flesh, in our person, then WE are sinning.

No, no tempters sins in YOUR mind. lol

Once again, it's obvious that you don't understand the point being made.. perhaps someone else can share their thoughts on the matter.. because evidently you seem to think that only the devil sins and people do not.

When you cease from temptation thoughts of the tempter, you just let me know when you have made the tempter obedient and responsible.

Good luck with that.

s

And you can let me know when you understand the simple question being put forth.

 

[smaller]

Re: Christ died for OUR sins according to the scriptures..

So what are you saying.. that Christ died for Satan's sin and we don't sin ?

Your mind appears to be spinning in circles. It is entirely possible that you are forgiven and SATAN is not and remains condemned, period.

IF those sins transpire as SIN in your MIND of the tempter, that is your burden to bear. The lust that the tempter inserts are YOUR struggle with SATAN.

Obviously you can't follow a simple thought here.. I didn't say (not even one time) that thoughts are not sin..

Temptation thoughts are of the tempter. You are welcome to think they are not and provide cover up for the tempter. Not my problem.

what I'm talking about is when it is carried out in the flesh, in our person, then WE are sinning.

Sin is a progression of the tempter from thought to word to deed AND it is so of A SLAVE who gets defeated at the first engagement. IN MIND.

Once again, it's obvious that you don't understand the point being made.. perhaps someone else can share their thoughts on the matter.. because evidently you seem to think that only the devil sins and people do not.

I've never said that. But you see the extreme difficulty of saying sin is NOT of the devil. There is no way to remove the tempter from the equations.

You are however welcome to just blame the slave and ignore the source.

That is not how victory and division is gained.

And you can let me know when you understand the simple question being put forth.

It only appears to me like you want to blame and accuse man only. That is in fact a compelling and FORCE of SATAN's thoughts, not wanting to be discovered.

s

 

[Eventide]

Re: Christ died for OUR sins according to the scriptures..

Your mind appears to be spinning in circles. It is entirely possible that you are forgiven and SATAN is not and remains condemned, period.

Not a problem.. simple to understand imo.. but again, does Satan force me to sin.. your answer is NO.. he doesn't.. so who is sinning when something like murder or adultery is carried out in the flesh.. is that the devil sinning or is it the person sinning ?

Simple question which you don't seem to have an answer for.

IF those sins transpire as SIN in your MIND of the tempter, that is your burden to bear. The lust that the tempter inserts are YOUR struggle with SATAN.

Once again.. no argument there.. although when it's carried out in the person (adultery for example).. who sinned ? The devil only or the person ?

I think that the answer is obvious.. because Christ died for OUR sins.. not the devil's sin.

Temptation thoughts are of the tempter. You are welcome to think they are not and provide cover up for the tempter. Not my problem.

It's obvious that you're not willing to answer the simple question put forth.. and once again you must resort to saying things that I don't have any issue with at all.

Sin is a progression of the tempter from thought to word to deed AND it is so of A SLAVE who gets defeated at the first engagement. IN MIND.

Yes, got that memo a hundred times already..

I've never said that. But you see the extreme difficulty of saying sin is NOT of the devil. There is no way to remove the tempter from the equations.

I know that it originates with the devil.. although it manifests itself in the flesh of people.. unless you're living in a bubble somwhere.. people sin.

You are however welcome to just blame the slave and ignore the source.

I understand the source although evidently you don't believe me.. although as you admit, the source does not force anyone to sin..

It only appears to me like you want to blame and accuse man only. That is in fact a compelling and FORCE of SATAN's thoughts, not wanting to be discovered.

s

I could easily blame the devil alone as you do, although imo that's severely lacking in truth.

 

[smaller]

Re: Christ died for OUR sins according to the scriptures..

Not a problem.. simple to understand imo.. but again, does Satan force me to sin.. your answer is NO..

That's not my answer whatsoever. You ask does Satan force you to sin? The fact IS a SIN of SATAN, the tempter transpires IN YOU the instant that tempting SIN happens.

The real question is do you stop the tempter from inserting temptations in the form of SIN THOUGHT?

The answer is no, NO PERSON is immune from the TEMPTER.

he doesn't.. so who is sinning when something like murder or adultery is carried out in the flesh.. is that the devil sinning or is it the person sinning ?

You are certainly welcome to take the blame for the tempters SIN thoughts all to yourself. That is in fact what the TEMPTER likes people to do. That's part of the process of ENSLAVEMENT.

Simple question which you don't seem to have an answer for.

Run this little drill:

Is SIN of the devil? y/n
Is SIN THOUGHT a sin? y/n
Is SIN WORD a sin? y/n
Is SIN DEED a sin? y/n

Now tell me how you propose to extract the devil from any of those equations if the answers are yes to all of them?

Once again.. no argument there.. although when it's carried out in the person (adultery for example).. who sinned ? The devil only or the person ?

That person was sinning the moment the TEMPTER inserted that thought and it was a thought of SIN by the tempter. The graduation ceremony into demonic slaveship CULMINATES in the external action.

It's obvious that you're not willing to answer the simple question put forth.. and once again you must resort to saying things that I don't have any issue with at all.

I don't really know what you're trying to get at other than to exonerate the devil from being in the equations.

I understand the source although evidently you don't believe me.. although as you admit, the source does not force anyone to sin..

And you keep falsely thinking that a SINNING THOUGHT of the TEMPTER in your own mind is somehow NOT a sin and NOT of the tempter. lol

Yes, you have SIN THOUGHTS inserted in your mind BY FORCE of the TEMPTER.

Whether or not you recognize the facts of it will not change the fact that it is A SIN, that SIN is of the TEMPTER and you can not STOP from being TEMPTED.

I could easily blame the devil alone as you do, although imo that's severely lacking in truth.

Like I said before, you are welcome to take the blame. That's the first step in the path where the tempter desires you to go.

s

 

[Eventide]

So it's obvious that smaller doesn't believe that people sin.. only the devil does.. so therefore we must conclude that he believes that Christ died for the devils sins, and not our own.

No point in beating this horse to death..

My apologies for perhaps taking this thread in a different direction, although it's interesting nonetheless.

Anyone else care to engage in the question which I put forth here ?

 

[smaller]

So it's obvious that smaller doesn't believe that people sin.. only the devil does.

Never said any such thing. If a sin transpires in YOU, even if OF THE DEVIL it's STILL YOURS to deal with as it transpired IN and WITH you.

. so therefore we must conclude that he believes that Christ died for the devils sins, and not our own.

There is no therefore. You are a sinner just as I. There is however no WAY possible to DE-LINK "our SIN" to the DEVIL, no matter how hard you flail at this subject.

No point in beating this horse to death..

My apologies for perhaps taking this thread in a different direction, although it's interesting nonetheless.

Anyone else care to engage in the question which I put forth here ?

It's a hard pill to swallow but the fact remains. Sin is of the devil, yes, even as little as A SIN THOUGHT.

You are welcome to dance around the matter. And I always enjoy seeing the squirming.

s

 

[Eventide]

Never said any such thing. If a sin transpires in YOU, even if OF THE DEVIL it's STILL YOURS to deal with as it transpired IN and WITH you.



There is no therefore. You are a sinner just as I. There is however no WAY possible to DE-LINK "our SIN" to the DEVIL, no matter how hard you flail at this subject.


It's a hard pill to swallow but the fact remains. Sin is of the devil, yes, even as little as A SIN THOUGHT.

You are welcome to dance around the matter. And I always enjoy seeing the squirming.

s

Thanks for finally admitting that you and I sin.. not just the devil.. and yes, I know that he is involved too.

 

[smaller]

Thanks for finally admitting that you and I sin.. not just the devil.. and yes, I know that he is involved too.

That's the point. It's quite pointless to see ourselves only through one eye.

Those for example who think the entirety of what they 'think' they are, standing under Grace for example, DO NOT STAND under Grace with ANY working of the TEMPTER.

We are covered. We can certainly and utterly FAIL and FALL in this present life because of our enemies.

GRACE will prevail for the believer. Grace will do ZERO for the tempter.

Galatians 6:5
For every man shall bear his own burden.


s

 

[Eventide]

James says;

But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

One of the ways in which faith saves us is with respect to how wealthy we are in Christ Jesus.. we have an inheritance in Him that is beyond measure..

This is why God cannot be tempted with evil.. because He already has everything.. it would be like me trying to tempt Bill Gates with a $20 bill.. it ain't gonna happen.

 

[smaller]

James says;

But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

IF the tempter inserts LUST, which the tempter assuredly DOES, yes, that is YOUR BURDEN to bear. If you know where it comes from it's much easier to divide from.

Paul said we are not to let sin reign in our mortal bodies because of the fact that it IS there to REIGN.

One of the ways in which faith saves us is with respect to how wealthy we are in Christ Jesus.. we have an inheritance in Him that is beyond measure..

Faith may serve us well. Faith will do the tempter zero good. This is part of the problem with understanding 'any' doctrine. Believers tend to pull the ENTIRETY of themselves through their doctrinal sifters, not seeing that in doing so they also drag in SIN, EVIL and the workings of the TEMPTER in them. Such doctrines just smeared upon a person without knowing their enemies are within them are meaningless.

This is why God cannot be tempted with evil.. because He already has everything.. it would be like me trying to tempt Bill Gates with a $20 bill.. it ain't gonna happen.

Jesus was assuredly tempted. I do not consider His Temptation was the same as ours, because In Him there was NO SIN, not even IN MIND. We do not have that same measure.

Paul was quite honest about his own condition when he stated that 'evil' was in fact present with him. (Romans 7:21)

Paul did not extend the Grace he taught TO that working whatsoever.

Grace remains UNmerited favor from God because of what we carry. We can not merit ourselves when it is not just 'ourselves.'

s

 

[Eventide]

Yes, Jesus was tempted, although He cannot be tempted with evil.. and this is precisely what the scriptures show us... that He cannot be tempted with evil.

IMO it's one of those things that might be difficult to understand at first, and becomes clearer perhaps as we grow in the grace and in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[lightbearer]

Jesus told people to go and sin no more, but how can that be possible if we are sinful in nature as most churches preach? Did Yeshua give us more than we can chew?

Yes more than we can chew in and of ourselves. But through the Gift of the Gospel we can do all things.

The purpose of Christ sacrifice was the removal of sin. To make the believer cleansed and thereby enabling them to be sinnless through God's indwelling Spirit.

First lets talk about the Atonement = At one ment.
In the Greek, katalithazo=restoration, from the root word katallasso, which is a compound word.
Which in it's simplist direct translation means down the difference, and since we were the one that needed to be different God sent His son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, condemned sin in his flesh.

He was manifested to take away our sin and in Him is no sin, Jesus Christ who through the eternal spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge (cleanse) our conscience (inward man) from dead works (sin) to serve the living God, that the righteousness of the law be fulfilled in us by his indwelling spirit for it is God that worketh in us both to will and do his good pleasure. Sanctified, set apart for holy use, the temple of the most high God.

Now this is really interesting. Forgiveness in the greek is aphesis, and it means freedom. It is from the root word aphiemi which means send forth.

Gods forgiveness and atonement is a seperation from sin; a sending forth; a seperation from it.

This is out of love and the desire to have the most intimate relationship that he can have with us, the at one ment. This my friends is the one and only Gospel. The point of it all the secret of our success. For we through the atonement are members of His body, of his flesh,and of His bones. Which is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the begining of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things through Christ. Of whom the whole family in heaven is named. That he has granted us according to the riches of His glory, Stengthened with might by his spirit in the inner man. Christ dwelling in our hearts by faith; that we, being rooted and grounded in love, may be able to comprehend with all the saints the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that we may be filled with all the fullness of God. That is, Christ in you the Hope of Glory for With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.​

 

[Fedusenko]

@ Smaller
Can we sin without the help of the tempter? It seems like a ridiculous question, so I will specify. Could Eve have sinned if the tempter had never spoke with her?

 

[smaller]

@ Smaller
Can we sin without the help of the tempter? It seems like a ridiculous question, so I will specify. Could Eve have sinned if the tempter had never spoke with her?

The events in the Garden happened no differently than what Jesus taught us. Where the Word was sown in the Garden, GODS BLESSINGS upon Adam, with Eve still within him, then 'immediately' Satan entered Adam.

From that point on no one should view Adam or Eve as alone. This fact is substantiated by many observations. Then, the 'natural man' Adam had THE LAW laid upon him. Who is the law for? Yeah, the lawless. This shows the lawless one was already in the heart of Adam . Then, a deep slumber then came upon Adam. There are huge numbers of such incidences in the text, all pointing to 'the spirit of slumber' that is put upon people 'where the Word is sown.' This is an exact picture of Satan's entry into the heart. Then Adam had the 'division' of his inner man from himself, so to speak, with Eve. It was his 'inner man' who was deceived. Remember God called them both Adam in the day they were created. Eve is a picture of Adam's inner man, deceived. Deceived by whom? Yeah, Satan. As many read this matter they just will not and can not see it, for ALL the same reasons. Such will land only on blaming Adam and or Eve for their poor choices when the fact is the deceiver was already set hard upon them.

From the moment The Word was sown in Adam, thus began the course of events. No one should read of Adam or Eve without seeing the actions of the tempter 'within' them. There is then a requirement for TWO EYES to be placed upon Adam and/or Eve to truthfully see how the events unfolded.

No natural man can understand these matters, as they are spiritual in nature and speak to workings that we can not see with our eyes.

Jesus clearly revealed the presence of entities IN MAN that were not man in Israel. Those entities were and still remain to this day the CAPTORS of Israel's people and also the balance of all people.

If you don't get it, or can't see it, I understand why, and don't blame you as Gods child. I know there is another working at work in everyone. If God opens your eyes to this matter you will never see the scriptures or 'man' the same way again. There is no looking back on this matter once seen and perceived. But as stated earlier in this thread it is A HARD SAYING. It is HARD because of the resistor, the tempter who is active in the minds of ALL, and RESISTS this Spiritual Truth of Jesus. Yet it is written and written openly to see.

enjoy!

smaller